| Author |
Message |
ray o'hara
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Western stars |
|
|
"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3dc0puF6r1lbkU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | J. J. Lodder wrote:
Pat Durkin <durkinpa@peoplepc.com> wrote:
[...]
When I was small, and thrilled about the war, we got very specific
about names. These planes had a most romantic name: Lockheed
Lightning.
They were actually developed before the war began.
They were an imitation of the Fokker G1 (1934, first showed 1936)
Interesting, these ramifications of aircraft bloodlines. The Mustang
was, I understand, originally an RAF specification, but it's still
the Spitfire which excites the British imagination -- elegance and
Battle of Britain associations, I suppose.
(Jan will be along to tell us that both were originally developed by
DAF in 1922.)
--
Mike.
|
The Mustang was drawn up by the North American aircraft company, the Brits
were the first to buy them as they needed planes and they wanted a better
craft than the rapidly obsolecent P-40s then available, the P-51 was mated
with the RR Merlin engine which was a British design, and an outstanding
fighter resulted. In typical British fashion they then claim the P-51 was
designed to British specs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
ray o'hara
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Western stars |
|
|
"Rodney" <rodney@touch88gum.com.au> wrote in message
news:4270cfa9@news.eftel.com...
| Quote: | I was investigating the originations of a Australian War Savings
Stamp last year with what looked like Spitfire image on it, however it had
a
machine gun turret behind the cockpit.
It turned out to be a "Boulton Paul Defiant"
So another Spitfire bloodline perhaps.
|
I never could figure out why the didn't fit a couple of 20mm gun pods
under the wings of Defiants. They had them available and did so with
Hurricanes to improve its firepower.
I guess it was typical Brit pig-headedness. Take the case of the 3.7inch AA
gun it was similar to the more famous Krup 8.8cm AA gun but slightly better,
the germans captured one and tried it out by firing at a derelict tank, the
gun practically vaporized the tank. The Brits at the time were using a 2lb
gun{40mm} and later a 6lb{57mm} gun, both of which were hopelessly
inadequate and only served to annoy the German tanks and give your position
away. it seems AA guns shot at airplanes and AT guns shot at tanks and that
was that. |
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|
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ray o'hara
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Western stars |
|
|
"Rodney" <rodney@touch88gum.com.au> wrote in message
news:4271f0d2$1@news.eftel.com...
| Quote: |
"Ugly" is such a negative word.
I would have much preferred it, had you used "less handsome"
| The Huricane is ugly, in comparison.
|
I always thought Hurricanes were quite cute, I'll grant the Spit is one
of the most beautiful machines of any type ever produced by man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
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ray o'hara
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 12:02 am
Post subject: Re: Western stars |
|
|
"Frances Kemmish" <fkemmish@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:3dethpF6shdkmU2@individual.net...
| Quote: | Mike Lyle wrote:
J. J. Lodder wrote:
[...]
BTW, found a picture of the Fokker G-1 going down (May 1940)
http://gais.demon.nl/Aircraft/Aircraft026/3.jpg
That's awful, Jan. I can never get used to pictures like that.
My father-in-law once sent us Christmas card with a picture of a plane
being shot down. I know he always buys his cards at the RAF museum, but
I would have thought they had something a little more festive.
Fran
|
In Boston Mass next to the Fens there is a memorial to the sailors of the
Merchant Marine. It is a bronze sculture of a Liberty ship half out of the
water and about to take its final plunge. I alway felt a ship sailing on to
its destination might have been more tasteful but it does get its point
across. |
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|
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ray o'hara
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 12:11 am
Post subject: Re: Western stars |
|
|
"Thomas W Ping" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.04.29.06.49.24.708382@earthlink.net...
| Quote: | On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:37:48 +0100, Mike Lyle wrote:
Rodney wrote:
Not sure about any Spitfire connection: I know next to nothing about
the subject. I wonder if it's just that British designers at the time
liked that lean kind of shape, as against the rather chunky forms
found in some American machines.
Part of that was about engine choices. The US used a lot of radial-engine
fighters (P-47 Thunderbolt/Jug and most of the Navy and Marine craft), and
that necessitated a blunt nose and a front fuselage with an accomodating
cross-section. While that didn't define the entire airframe, it did mean
that those craft didn't have the sleeker appearance of the planes with the
longer, narrower inline engines, in terms of fuselage lines. The Soviets
did sleek quite well with the inline-engined Yaks and Migs of the day, and
except for the belly radiator on the P-51 Mustang, it was pretty slick as
well. (They're still racing Mustangs, today.)
The ellipical wing plan of the Spitfire is much loved for its eye appeal.
As for some of its contemporaries with similar inline engine
configurations:
|
The superb FW-190 also used a radial engine. Radial engines were easier to
cool and were more robust in combat. The belly radiator in the mustang was a
brilliant innovation
not only did it cool the radiator but the small opening behind it gave the
plane more forward thrust.
In-line planes look sleeker but the need for radiators just transferred the
drag to a differnt part of the plane, on Spits and Hurricanes they were
placed under the wings on the Focke-Wulfe Fw-190D and the TA-152 it was in
front of the engine like on a car and gives the plane the look of a radial
engine, they can be distiguished from the regular FW-190 by the longer
cowl. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Lyle
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 12:16 am
Post subject: Re: Western stars |
|
|
ray o'hara wrote:
| Quote: | "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3dc0puF6r1lbkU1@individual.net...
J. J. Lodder wrote:
Pat Durkin <durkinpa@peoplepc.com> wrote:
[...]
When I was small, and thrilled about the war, we got very
specific
about names. These planes had a most romantic name: Lockheed
Lightning.
They were actually developed before the war began.
They were an imitation of the Fokker G1 (1934, first showed 1936)
Interesting, these ramifications of aircraft bloodlines. The
Mustang
was, I understand, originally an RAF specification, but it's still
the Spitfire which excites the British imagination -- elegance and
Battle of Britain associations, I suppose.
(Jan will be along to tell us that both were originally developed
by
DAF in 1922.)
--
Mike.
The Mustang was drawn up by the North American aircraft company,
the Brits were the first to buy them as they needed planes and they
wanted a better craft than the rapidly obsolecent P-40s then
available, the P-51 was mated with the RR Merlin engine which was a
British design, and an outstanding fighter resulted. In typical
British fashion they then claim the P-51 was designed to British
specs.
|
I did write what you quoted above: "...was, I understand, originally
an RAF specification". "I understand", get it? In the thread I
mentioned that this wasn't a subject I knew much about. I'm not
British.
Nonetheless, before deciding to insert your gratuitous "typical
British fashion" crack somewhere suitably lacking in insolation, you
could Google <north american mustang RAF specification>.
--
Mike. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ray o'hara
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 12:20 am
Post subject: Re: Western stars |
|
|
"Thomas W Ping" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.04.28.08.07.01.167229@earthlink.net...
| Quote: | On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:36:55 +0000, Adrian Bailey wrote:
"masahiko" <kirikojima@m5.dion.ne.j> wrote in message
news:pdIbe.101$Ch5.84@news1.dion.ne.jp...
The following sentence appears in a fiction which depicts the life in
Manila during WWII.
Then come the newer P-38 fighters, escorting Amerikano B-24 liberation
bombers with the Western stars on their sides and their bellies ripe:
What is "Western stars" here?
These, maybe?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:USAF_roundel.png
For anyone interested, here is a brief look at the evolution of US
military air insignia, from back before there was a USAF. There were
variations even during the WWII years.
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/insignia.htm
--
Thomas Winston Ping
|
I always like the pre-war insignia but they felt the need to drop the red
center dot for obvious reasons.
For D-Day the painted large very visible black and white stipes called
"Invasion Stripes" on Allied craft to avoid the problems encountered in the
invasion of Sicily where the Royal Navy fired on U.S. C-47 transports
carrying the 82nd Airborne Division. The stripes were to be romeved after
the invasion was over but the pilots on both sides liked them as they
clearly showed who was friendly and who was not, recognition mistakes
dropped as a result. |
|
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|
|
ray o'hara
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 1:06 am
Post subject: Re: Western stars |
|
|
"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3di0c5F6pnudfU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | ray o'hara wrote:
"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3dc0puF6r1lbkU1@individual.net...
J. J. Lodder wrote:
Pat Durkin <durkinpa@peoplepc.com> wrote:
[...]
When I was small, and thrilled about the war, we got very
specific
about names. These planes had a most romantic name: Lockheed
Lightning.
They were actually developed before the war began.
They were an imitation of the Fokker G1 (1934, first showed 1936)
Interesting, these ramifications of aircraft bloodlines. The
Mustang
was, I understand, originally an RAF specification, but it's still
the Spitfire which excites the British imagination -- elegance and
Battle of Britain associations, I suppose.
(Jan will be along to tell us that both were originally developed
by
DAF in 1922.)
--
Mike.
The Mustang was drawn up by the North American aircraft company,
the Brits were the first to buy them as they needed planes and they
wanted a better craft than the rapidly obsolecent P-40s then
available, the P-51 was mated with the RR Merlin engine which was a
British design, and an outstanding fighter resulted. In typical
British fashion they then claim the P-51 was designed to British
specs.
I did write what you quoted above: "...was, I understand, originally
an RAF specification". "I understand", get it? In the thread I
mentioned that this wasn't a subject I knew much about. I'm not
British.
Nonetheless, before deciding to insert your gratuitous "typical
British fashion" crack somewhere suitably lacking in insolation, you
could Google <north american mustang RAF specification>.
--
Mike.
|
"Typical British fashion" is not a gratuitous insult, it is an upfront
insult. The Brits have a way of taking credit for many things they were only
peripherally involved in.
North American Aviation was under contract to produce training aircraft for
the British. Then Kindelberger somehow, with no real evidence that it could
be done, convinced the British that North American Aviation could design and
build a new fighter that was better than the P-40. The new fighter would fly
faster, higher, farther, be more maneuverable and pack more firepower. The
British took NAA at their word because they had performed well with British
orders for the NAA Harvard trainer. British approval by letter of intent was
given on 10th April 1940. Shortly after, 23 May, a contract order was placed
by the British for the first 320 aircraft designated NA-73.
The Brits provided no specs or input, they were after planes,any planes they
could get. North American offered a better design of their own making. The
Brits take credit for the Bttle of the Bulge too. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Lyle
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 2:06 am
Post subject: Re: Western stars |
|
|
ray o'hara wrote:
| Quote: | "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3di0c5F6pnudfU1@individual.net...
ray o'hara wrote:
"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3dc0puF6r1lbkU1@individual.net...
J. J. Lodder wrote:
Pat Durkin <durkinpa@peoplepc.com> wrote:
[...]
When I was small, and thrilled about the war, we got very
specific
about names. These planes had a most romantic name: Lockheed
Lightning.
They were actually developed before the war began.
They were an imitation of the Fokker G1 (1934, first showed
1936)
Interesting, these ramifications of aircraft bloodlines. The
Mustang
was, I understand, originally an RAF specification, but it's
still
the Spitfire which excites the British imagination -- elegance
and
Battle of Britain associations, I suppose.
(Jan will be along to tell us that both were originally
developed
by
DAF in 1922.)
--
Mike.
The Mustang was drawn up by the North American aircraft
company,
the Brits were the first to buy them as they needed planes and
they
wanted a better craft than the rapidly obsolecent P-40s then
available, the P-51 was mated with the RR Merlin engine which was
a
British design, and an outstanding fighter resulted. In typical
British fashion they then claim the P-51 was designed to British
specs.
I did write what you quoted above: "...was, I understand,
originally
an RAF specification". "I understand", get it? In the thread I
mentioned that this wasn't a subject I knew much about. I'm not
British.
Nonetheless, before deciding to insert your gratuitous "typical
British fashion" crack somewhere suitably lacking in insolation,
you
could Google <north american mustang RAF specification>.
--
Mike.
"Typical British fashion" is not a gratuitous insult, it is an
upfront insult. The Brits have a way of taking credit for many
things
they were only peripherally involved in.
|
I did mention that I wasn't British; you were replying to me, in an
attempt to correct me on a subject I disclaimed full knowledge of.
That made your remark gratuitous. I deduce that you think
"gratuitous" is in some way in contrast to "upfront".
Please let me know when I make a spontaneous nationality crack like
that about wherever you come from: you'll find me quick to make an
embarrassed apology.
My dear friends the British are, of course, not the only people who
sometimes mistakenly give themselves more credit than they deserve.
They seem to be human.
| Quote: |
North American Aviation was under contract to produce training
aircraft for the British. Then Kindelberger somehow, with no real
evidence that it could be done, convinced the British that North
American Aviation could design and build a new fighter that was
better than the P-40. The new fighter would fly faster, higher,
farther, be more maneuverable and pack more firepower. The British
took NAA at their word because they had performed well with British
orders for the NAA Harvard trainer. British approval by letter of
intent was given on 10th April 1940. Shortly after, 23 May, a
contract order was placed by the British for the first 320 aircraft
designated NA-73.
The Brits provided no specs or input, they were after planes,any
planes they could get. North American offered a better design of
their own making.
|
It seems you've got a lot of letters to write, correcting all that
false information out there.
| Quote: | The Brits take credit for the Bttle of the Bulge
too.
|
If you've got a problem, please don't draw me in.
--
Mike. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ray o'hara
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 3:06 am
Post subject: Re: Western stars |
|
|
"Mike Lyle" >
| Quote: | I did mention that I wasn't British; you were replying to me, in an
attempt to correct me on a subject I disclaimed full knowledge of.
That made your remark gratuitous. I deduce that you think
"gratuitous" is in some way in contrast to "upfront".
|
Yes you did, did I ever blame you for anything? Did I say "you Brits"?
You posted the myth about Brit specs that has been around for years, I
disputed the assertion that they did provide specs for it. If you somehow
feel guilty that is on you.
| Quote: | Please let me know when I make a spontaneous nationality crack like
that about wherever you come from: you'll find me quick to make an
embarrassed apology.
|
The U.S.A. gets ripped by Euros all the time. Feel free to join in, here we
dismiss it as"consider the source"
| Quote: | My dear friends the British are, of course, not the only people who
sometimes mistakenly give themselves more credit than they deserve.
They seem to be human.
North American Aviation was under contract to produce training
aircraft for the British. Then Kindelberger somehow, with no real
evidence that it could be done, convinced the British that North
American Aviation could design and build a new fighter that was
better than the P-40. The new fighter would fly faster, higher,
farther, be more maneuverable and pack more firepower. The British
took NAA at their word because they had performed well with British
orders for the NAA Harvard trainer. British approval by letter of
intent was given on 10th April 1940. Shortly after, 23 May, a
contract order was placed by the British for the first 320 aircraft
designated NA-73.
The Brits provided no specs or input, they were after planes,any
planes they could get. North American offered a better design of
their own making.
It seems you've got a lot of letters to write, correcting all that
false information out there.
|
I can wait for folks to regurgitate the myth before setting the record
straight.
Do you find it offensive when someone tries to set the record straight? are
British myths that important to you.
You've mentioned twice now you aren't British, so why are you so offended
that British myths get debunked?
| Quote: | The Brits take credit for the Bttle of the Bulge
too.
If you've got a problem, please don't draw me in.
--
Mike.
|
As I said before nobody drew you into anything, you drew yourself in.
P.S. your paranoia is showing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Thomas W Ping
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 4:14 am
Post subject: Re: Western stars |
|
|
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:11:31 -0400, ray o'hara wrote:
| Quote: |
"Thomas W Ping" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.04.29.06.49.24.708382@earthlink.net...
On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:37:48 +0100, Mike Lyle wrote:
Rodney wrote:
Not sure about any Spitfire connection: I know next to nothing about
the subject. I wonder if it's just that British designers at the time
liked that lean kind of shape, as against the rather chunky forms
found in some American machines.
Part of that was about engine choices. The US used a lot of radial-engine
fighters (P-47 Thunderbolt/Jug and most of the Navy and Marine craft), and
that necessitated a blunt nose and a front fuselage with an accomodating
cross-section. While that didn't define the entire airframe, it did mean
that those craft didn't have the sleeker appearance of the planes with the
longer, narrower inline engines, in terms of fuselage lines. The Soviets
did sleek quite well with the inline-engined Yaks and Migs of the day, and
except for the belly radiator on the P-51 Mustang, it was pretty slick as
well. (They're still racing Mustangs, today.)
The ellipical wing plan of the Spitfire is much loved for its eye appeal.
As for some of its contemporaries with similar inline engine
configurations:
The superb FW-190 also used a radial engine. Radial engines were easier to
|
A beautiful airplane, that.
| Quote: | cool and were more robust in combat. The belly radiator in the mustang
was a brilliant innovation
not only did it cool the radiator but the small opening behind it gave
the plane more forward thrust.
In-line planes look sleeker but the need for radiators just transferred
the drag to a differnt part of the plane, on Spits and Hurricanes they
were placed under the wings on the Focke-Wulfe Fw-190D and the TA-152
it was in front of the engine like on a car and gives the plane the look
of a radial engine, they can be distiguished from the regular FW-190 by
the longer cowl.
|
A beautiful slightly longer airplain, that.
--
Thomas Winston Ping |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rodney
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 4:57 am
Post subject: Re: Western stars |
|
|
| "Typical British fashion" is not a gratuitous insult, it is an upfront
| insult. The Brits have a way of taking credit for many things they were only
| peripherally involved in.
Does not, the status of "insult" lie with the attitude of the recipient?
I found no offence with your comments,
I just put you down as a nutter.
BTW, no matter whomsoever takes credit for it, I believe the Americans
were responsible for the 1980's questionable fashion statement,
the "Leisure Suit".
I have heard on occasions that it was a bold act, to out-do
the ghastly Dutch/German "socks and sandals" Oscar.
(you had previously failed with the Hawaiian Floral shirt)
History shall forever judge you on this, the ultimate design gaff. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Skitt
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 5:45 am
Post subject: Re: Western stars |
|
|
Rodney wrote:
[to someone]
| Quote: | Does not, the status of "insult" lie with the attitude of the
recipient? I found no offence with your comments,
I just put you down as a nutter.
BTW, no matter whomsoever takes credit for it,
|
Oy!
| Quote: | I believe the Americans
were responsible for the 1980's questionable fashion statement,
the "Leisure Suit".
I have heard on occasions that it was a bold act, to out-do
the ghastly Dutch/German "socks and sandals" Oscar.
(you had previously failed with the Hawaiian Floral shirt)
|
Who is the mysterious "you"?
| Quote: | History shall forever judge you on this, the ultimate design gaff.
|
Gaffe, even.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ray o'hara
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 5:52 am
Post subject: Re: Western stars |
|
|
"Thomas W Ping" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.04.30.22.13.57.455036@earthlink.net...
| Quote: | On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:11:31 -0400, ray o'hara wrote:
"Thomas W Ping" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.04.29.06.49.24.708382@earthlink.net...
On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:37:48 +0100, Mike Lyle wrote:
Rodney wrote:
Not sure about any Spitfire connection: I know next to nothing about
the subject. I wonder if it's just that British designers at the time
liked that lean kind of shape, as against the rather chunky forms
found in some American machines.
Part of that was about engine choices. The US used a lot of
radial-engine
fighters (P-47 Thunderbolt/Jug and most of the Navy and Marine craft),
and
that necessitated a blunt nose and a front fuselage with an
accomodating
cross-section. While that didn't define the entire airframe, it did
mean
that those craft didn't have the sleeker appearance of the planes with
the
longer, narrower inline engines, in terms of fuselage lines. The
Soviets
did sleek quite well with the inline-engined Yaks and Migs of the day,
and
except for the belly radiator on the P-51 Mustang, it was pretty slick
as
well. (They're still racing Mustangs, today.)
The ellipical wing plan of the Spitfire is much loved for its eye
appeal.
As for some of its contemporaries with similar inline engine
configurations:
The superb FW-190 also used a radial engine. Radial engines were
easier to
A beautiful airplane, that.
cool and were more robust in combat. The belly radiator in the mustang
was a brilliant innovation
not only did it cool the radiator but the small opening behind it gave
the plane more forward thrust.
In-line planes look sleeker but the need for radiators just transferred
the drag to a differnt part of the plane, on Spits and Hurricanes they
were placed under the wings on the Focke-Wulfe Fw-190D and the TA-152
it was in front of the engine like on a car and gives the plane the look
of a radial engine, they can be distiguished from the regular FW-190 by
the longer cowl.
A beautiful slightly longer airplain, that.
--
Thomas Winston Ping
|
Kurt Tank could design a nice plane. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ray o'hara
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 5:55 am
Post subject: Re: Western stars |
|
|
"Rodney" <rodney@touch88gum.com.au> wrote in message
news:42740c75$1@news.eftel.com...
| Quote: |
| "Typical British fashion" is not a gratuitous insult, it is an upfront
| insult. The Brits have a way of taking credit for many things they were
only
| peripherally involved in.
Does not, the status of "insult" lie with the attitude of the recipient?
I found no offence with your comments,
I just put you down as a nutter.
BTW, no matter whomsoever takes credit for it, I believe the Americans
were responsible for the 1980's questionable fashion statement,
the "Leisure Suit".
I have heard on occasions that it was a bold act, to out-do
the ghastly Dutch/German "socks and sandals" Oscar.
(you had previously failed with the Hawaiian Floral shirt)
|
You left out the worst aspect of the "Leisure Suit" the term "double knit".
Add in a pair of white J.C.Penny shoes and your ready to peddle used cars. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
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