| Author |
Message |
Gloria Stevens
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:01 pm
Post subject: Jews in the Ivy Leagues |
|
|
The extreme over-representation of the jews in elite colleges is
baffling. They populate over 30% of the student body in places like
Columbia, Penn, and Harvard. In certain grad schools , like yale,
their representation is over 50%. With Jews making up only 2% of the
USA's population, it makes one wonder how this egregious disparity has
been able to last in the age of diversity and affirmative action... |
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Naomi Rivkis
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Jews in the Ivy Leagues |
|
|
On 25 Jan 2004 01:01:08 -0800, joecarder@mailvault.com (Gloria
Stevens) wrote:
| Quote: | The extreme over-representation of the jews in elite colleges is
baffling. They populate over 30% of the student body in places like
Columbia, Penn, and Harvard. In certain grad schools , like yale,
their representation is over 50%. With Jews making up only 2% of the
USA's population, it makes one wonder how this egregious disparity has
been able to last in the age of diversity and affirmative action...
|
We're just smarter than you are.
Naomi |
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David Haardt
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 9:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Jews in the Ivy Leagues |
|
|
joecarder@mailvault.com (Gloria Stevens) wrote:
| Quote: | The extreme over-representation of the jews in elite colleges is
baffling. They populate over 30% of the student body in places like
Columbia, Penn, and Harvard. In certain grad schools , like yale,
their representation is over 50%. With Jews making up only 2% of the
USA's population, it makes one wonder how this egregious disparity has
been able to last in the age of diversity and affirmative action...
|
First of all, I wonder from where you get your figures. Perhaps this
is just another the-jews-have-taken-over-the-US bullshit?
Being a "Roman Catholic" (in fact agnostic), I guess judaism has a
much stronger focus on education, knowledge, and science than most
other world religions. Roman Catholicism also had/has some currents in
the same direction, such as the Societas Jesu, but the Jesuits have
always been badly looked at by mainstream Roman Catholics (and are
subject to the same stupid conspiracy theories as jews, by the way).
Achievement and competition are also very important in Judaism,
comparable to Protestantism or perhaps even stronger.
-David Haardt |
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Gloria Stevens
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 8:41 am
Post subject: Re: Jews in the Ivy Leagues |
|
|
haardtnet@gmx.at (David Haardt) wrote in message news:<6bed43cc.0401250609.76e03aa5@posting.google.com>...
| Quote: | joecarder@mailvault.com (Gloria Stevens) wrote:
The extreme over-representation of the jews in elite colleges is
baffling. They populate over 30% of the student body in places like
Columbia, Penn, and Harvard. In certain grad schools , like yale,
their representation is over 50%. With Jews making up only 2% of the
USA's population, it makes one wonder how this egregious disparity has
been able to last in the age of diversity and affirmative action...
First of all, I wonder from where you get your figures. Perhaps this
is just another the-jews-have-taken-over-the-US bullshit?
|
www.hillel.org
www.census.gov
http://home.ddc.net/ygg/ms/ms-45.htm
| Quote: | Being a "Roman Catholic" (in fact agnostic), I guess judaism has a
much stronger focus on education, knowledge, and science than most
other world religions. Roman Catholicism also had/has some currents in
the same direction, such as the Societas Jesu, but the Jesuits have
always been badly looked at by mainstream Roman Catholics (and are
subject to the same stupid conspiracy theories as jews, by the way).
Achievement and competition are also very important in Judaism,
comparable to Protestantism or perhaps even stronger.
-David Haardt
|
Your suggestions are a bit besides the point. I was referring to the
fact that Jewish folks have seemed to escape the cutbacks on white
enrollemnt as a result of affirmative action. Most Non-jewish whites
cherish a good education and realize its a ticket to a bright future.
However, they are underepresented in most universities due to recent
favoritism showed towards most minorities. Jews on the otherhand are
over-represented by a factor of 15 in some places. I'm not purporting
any conspiracy theories here. I just found these facts a bit
interesting and surprising. |
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Out West
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Jews in the Ivy Leagues |
|
|
So, how do you correlate your findings with the fact the most of the UC's
are almost half asian? In some majors Asians are the majority. Half of CA is
not asian. It probably correlates the same way. Many jewish families
(expecially in this country) value education and begin at birth instilling
that in their children, as do many Asian families. The caucasian and indian
and hispanic families that do this also see their children going to college
and succeeding.
The colleges you mention take the best of the best, of their applicants.
It just so happens that many of the best are jewish second or third
generation so they've got the money to go to these schools, too. Many Asians
may not feel they fit in as well in the Ivy league as a whole (think about
it and the stereotypes of Ivy league) and many are the first generation so
they don't have ol' grandpa helping them or massive trust funds like the
third generation jews do.
So, my answer is...it's in the upbringing and it also has to do with the
cost and who can afford what. The UC's are arguably the best public school
system in the country. It is no shame to go to one and the best of the best
students in CA routinely go to them at about $5,500 a year fees (they don't
call it tuition) plus they give merits, too. When you are first generation
$5500 is a lot more 'affordable' than $28,000 tuition. If the Ivy league
gave merits and if they were cheaper you can bet that there would be a lot
more asians and a lot more protestants and catholics and hispanics, too.
Jewish people are the first truely hard working race and throughout history
they have instilled that work ethic in their children. It's got nothing to
do with brains. It's been proven that IQ can grow enormously or wither away
in a child depending on their opportunities and exposure. I've met some
incredibly intelligent hispanics and some incredibly stupid jews.
-B
"Gloria Stevens" <joecarder@mailvault.com> wrote in message
news:43c6046b.0401251741.65d5d957@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | haardtnet@gmx.at (David Haardt) wrote in message
news:<6bed43cc.0401250609.76e03aa5@posting.google.com>...
joecarder@mailvault.com (Gloria Stevens) wrote:
The extreme over-representation of the jews in elite colleges is
baffling. They populate over 30% of the student body in places like
Columbia, Penn, and Harvard. In certain grad schools , like yale,
their representation is over 50%. With Jews making up only 2% of the
USA's population, it makes one wonder how this egregious disparity has
been able to last in the age of diversity and affirmative action...
First of all, I wonder from where you get your figures. Perhaps this
is just another the-jews-have-taken-over-the-US bullshit?
www.hillel.org
www.census.gov
http://home.ddc.net/ygg/ms/ms-45.htm
Being a "Roman Catholic" (in fact agnostic), I guess judaism has a
much stronger focus on education, knowledge, and science than most
other world religions. Roman Catholicism also had/has some currents in
the same direction, such as the Societas Jesu, but the Jesuits have
always been badly looked at by mainstream Roman Catholics (and are
subject to the same stupid conspiracy theories as jews, by the way).
Achievement and competition are also very important in Judaism,
comparable to Protestantism or perhaps even stronger.
-David Haardt
Your suggestions are a bit besides the point. I was referring to the
fact that Jewish folks have seemed to escape the cutbacks on white
enrollemnt as a result of affirmative action. Most Non-jewish whites
cherish a good education and realize its a ticket to a bright future.
However, they are underepresented in most universities due to recent
favoritism showed towards most minorities. Jews on the otherhand are
over-represented by a factor of 15 in some places. I'm not purporting
any conspiracy theories here. I just found these facts a bit
interesting and surprising. |
|
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chung
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 1:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Jews in the Ivy Leagues |
|
|
Gloria Stevens wrote:
| Quote: | haardtnet@gmx.at (David Haardt) wrote in message news:<6bed43cc.0401250609.76e03aa5@posting.google.com>...
joecarder@mailvault.com (Gloria Stevens) wrote:
The extreme over-representation of the jews in elite colleges is
baffling. They populate over 30% of the student body in places like
Columbia, Penn, and Harvard. In certain grad schools , like yale,
their representation is over 50%. With Jews making up only 2% of the
USA's population, it makes one wonder how this egregious disparity has
been able to last in the age of diversity and affirmative action...
First of all, I wonder from where you get your figures. Perhaps this
is just another the-jews-have-taken-over-the-US bullshit?
www.hillel.org
www.census.gov
http://home.ddc.net/ygg/ms/ms-45.htm
Being a "Roman Catholic" (in fact agnostic), I guess judaism has a
much stronger focus on education, knowledge, and science than most
other world religions. Roman Catholicism also had/has some currents in
the same direction, such as the Societas Jesu, but the Jesuits have
always been badly looked at by mainstream Roman Catholics (and are
subject to the same stupid conspiracy theories as jews, by the way).
Achievement and competition are also very important in Judaism,
comparable to Protestantism or perhaps even stronger.
-David Haardt
Your suggestions are a bit besides the point. I was referring to the
fact that Jewish folks have seemed to escape the cutbacks on white
enrollemnt as a result of affirmative action. Most Non-jewish whites
cherish a good education and realize its a ticket to a bright future.
However, they are underepresented in most universities due to recent
favoritism showed towards most minorities.
|
Hmmm, has it crossed your mind that the under-representation of the
non-Jewish whites in the most selective universities is due to the fact
that there are simply more Jewish students and Asian American students
that do exceptionally well academically in high school?
| Quote: | Jews on the otherhand are
over-represented by a factor of 15 in some places. I'm not purporting
any conspiracy theories here. I just found these facts a bit
interesting and surprising. |
|
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Keith Baird
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Jews in the Ivy Leagues |
|
|
joecarder@mailvault.com (Gloria Stevens) wrote:
| Quote: | I was referring to the fact that Jewish folks have seemed to escape
the cutbacks on white enrollemnt as a result of affirmative action.
|
Can you document *reduced* white enrollment as an effect of affirmative
action policies, either as a general trend or on specific campuses?
--/<eith |
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nrf
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 6:39 am
Post subject: Re: Jews in the Ivy Leagues |
|
|
"Out West" <byer5@nospamearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tv1Rb.27101$1e.8483@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
| Quote: | So, how do you correlate your findings with the fact the most of the UC's
are almost half asian? In some majors Asians are the majority. Half of CA
is
not asian. It probably correlates the same way. Many jewish families
(expecially in this country) value education and begin at birth instilling
that in their children, as do many Asian families. The caucasian and
indian
and hispanic families that do this also see their children going to
college
and succeeding.
The colleges you mention take the best of the best, of their
applicants.
It just so happens that many of the best are jewish second or third
generation so they've got the money to go to these schools, too. Many
Asians
may not feel they fit in as well in the Ivy league as a whole (think about
it and the stereotypes of Ivy league) and many are the first generation so
they don't have ol' grandpa helping them or massive trust funds like the
third generation jews do.
|
See below.
| Quote: | So, my answer is...it's in the upbringing and it also has to do with the
cost and who can afford what. The UC's are arguably the best public school
system in the country. It is no shame to go to one and the best of the
best
students in CA routinely go to them at about $5,500 a year fees (they
don't
call it tuition) plus they give merits, too. When you are first generation
$5500 is a lot more 'affordable' than $28,000 tuition. If the Ivy league
gave merits and if they were cheaper you can bet that there would be a lot
more asians and a lot more protestants and catholics and hispanics, too.
|
I believe that cost is only a minor consideration. Asians are far far
over-represented at the elite private schools also, and this is despite the
effect of affirmative action which effectively reduces the number of Asians
in those schools. H
Consider these percentages of Asian-Americans/Pacific Islanders at the
following private school:
MIT - 27%
Harvard - 18%
Stanford - 25%
CalTech - 27%
Johns Hopkins - 20%
You can check the statistics yourself at Peterson's
(http://www.petersons.com/)
True, none of these numbers are as high as Berkeley's, which is now
apparently 42% Asian. Cost is indeed a factor, especially for the
1st-generation Asian immigrants. Affirmative action, which has been banned
at the UC's, is another factor, for Asians who apply to UC do not "lose
points" for being Asian. But ultimately, whenever you're looking at the top
schools, Asians are greatly overrepresented. The degree of
overrepresentation varies, but not the fact that there is
overrepresentation. This is why I say that cost is really only a minor
variable. The reality is that Asian-Americans tend to be place a tremendous
amount of value on education, and it should therefore surprise no-one that
they do so well in school.
| Quote: | Jewish people are the first truely hard working race and throughout
history
they have instilled that work ethic in their children. It's got nothing to
do with brains. It's been proven that IQ can grow enormously or wither
away
in a child depending on their opportunities and exposure. I've met some
incredibly intelligent hispanics and some incredibly stupid jews.
|
In other words, it boils down to human capital. Read Thomas Sowell.
| Quote: | -B
"Gloria Stevens" <joecarder@mailvault.com> wrote in message
news:43c6046b.0401251741.65d5d957@posting.google.com...
haardtnet@gmx.at (David Haardt) wrote in message
news:<6bed43cc.0401250609.76e03aa5@posting.google.com>...
joecarder@mailvault.com (Gloria Stevens) wrote:
The extreme over-representation of the jews in elite colleges is
baffling. They populate over 30% of the student body in places like
Columbia, Penn, and Harvard. In certain grad schools , like yale,
their representation is over 50%. With Jews making up only 2% of the
USA's population, it makes one wonder how this egregious disparity
has
been able to last in the age of diversity and affirmative action...
First of all, I wonder from where you get your figures. Perhaps this
is just another the-jews-have-taken-over-the-US bullshit?
www.hillel.org
www.census.gov
http://home.ddc.net/ygg/ms/ms-45.htm
Being a "Roman Catholic" (in fact agnostic), I guess judaism has a
much stronger focus on education, knowledge, and science than most
other world religions. Roman Catholicism also had/has some currents in
the same direction, such as the Societas Jesu, but the Jesuits have
always been badly looked at by mainstream Roman Catholics (and are
subject to the same stupid conspiracy theories as jews, by the way).
Achievement and competition are also very important in Judaism,
comparable to Protestantism or perhaps even stronger.
-David Haardt
Your suggestions are a bit besides the point. I was referring to the
fact that Jewish folks have seemed to escape the cutbacks on white
enrollemnt as a result of affirmative action. Most Non-jewish whites
cherish a good education and realize its a ticket to a bright future.
However, they are underepresented in most universities due to recent
favoritism showed towards most minorities. Jews on the otherhand are
over-represented by a factor of 15 in some places. I'm not purporting
any conspiracy theories here. I just found these facts a bit
interesting and surprising.
|
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| Back to top |
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nrf
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 6:54 am
Post subject: Re: Jews in the Ivy Leagues |
|
|
"Gloria Stevens" <joecarder@mailvault.com> wrote in message
news:43c6046b.0401251741.65d5d957@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | haardtnet@gmx.at (David Haardt) wrote in message
news:<6bed43cc.0401250609.76e03aa5@posting.google.com>...
joecarder@mailvault.com (Gloria Stevens) wrote:
The extreme over-representation of the jews in elite colleges is
baffling. They populate over 30% of the student body in places like
Columbia, Penn, and Harvard. In certain grad schools , like yale,
their representation is over 50%. With Jews making up only 2% of the
USA's population, it makes one wonder how this egregious disparity has
been able to last in the age of diversity and affirmative action...
First of all, I wonder from where you get your figures. Perhaps this
is just another the-jews-have-taken-over-the-US bullshit?
www.hillel.org
www.census.gov
http://home.ddc.net/ygg/ms/ms-45.htm
Being a "Roman Catholic" (in fact agnostic), I guess judaism has a
much stronger focus on education, knowledge, and science than most
other world religions. Roman Catholicism also had/has some currents in
the same direction, such as the Societas Jesu, but the Jesuits have
always been badly looked at by mainstream Roman Catholics (and are
subject to the same stupid conspiracy theories as jews, by the way).
Achievement and competition are also very important in Judaism,
comparable to Protestantism or perhaps even stronger.
-David Haardt
Your suggestions are a bit besides the point. I was referring to the
fact that Jewish folks have seemed to escape the cutbacks on white
enrollemnt as a result of affirmative action. Most Non-jewish whites
cherish a good education and realize its a ticket to a bright future.
However, they are underepresented in most universities due to recent
favoritism showed towards most minorities. Jews on the otherhand are
over-represented by a factor of 15 in some places. I'm not purporting
any conspiracy theories here. I just found these facts a bit
interesting and surprising.
|
That should surprise no-one. A cursory examination of history would reveal
that the Jewish diaspora to be one of the most dynamic and high-achieving
ethnic groups in world history, despite episodic discrimination and mass
violence directed against them. Jews have been dominant in commerce and
in the educated classes, and not just in the US, but throughout the world,
and it's not because of ridiculous and hateful conspiracies, but for one
simple reason - the Jews have simply worked harder and outcompeted others.
That's not to say that the Jews have succeeded in every category.
Jewish-Americans notably achieved practically zero success in the
agriculture industry, despite numerous attempts. But when it comes to the
traditional middle-man work, or work that involves either craftsmanship or
high levels of education, Jews have been tremendously successful and
powerful. Read Thomas Sowell to get an idea of what I'm talking about. |
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nrf
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 8:56 am
Post subject: Re: Jews in the Ivy Leagues |
|
|
"Gloria Stevens" <joecarder@mailvault.com> wrote in message
news:43c6046b.0401250006.6bc0d673@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | The extreme over-representation of the jews in elite colleges is
baffling. They populate over 30% of the student body in places like
Columbia, Penn, and Harvard. In certain grad schools , like yale,
their representation is over 50%. With Jews making up only 2% of the
USA's population, it makes one wonder how this egregious disparity has
been able to last in the age of diversity and affirmative action...
|
It should be a surprise to no-one that certain ethnic groups do certain
things very well. Statistical disparities in the representation of groups
in different occupations, industries, income levels, and educational
institutions have been the rule- not the exception - all across the planet
Moreover, many of these disparities have persisted for generations of even
centuries. Worldwide studies of multiethnic societies found that few, if
any of those societies even roughly approximated the proportional
representation of the different ethnic groups in different sectors of the
society. The simple fact is, skills and abilities have never been
proportionally represented in any group, anytime in history, and in anytime
in the world. You can't name a single nation or a single kingdom or a
single empire in history where the jobs and positions within that state were
divvied proportionally according to population. Nor can this be attributed
solely, or even mostly to explicit favoritism, discrimination, or racism.
Jews of the Ottoman Turkish Empire were predominant in commerce, trade, and
medicine, despite legally being third-class citizens. The ethnic Chinese in
Southeast Asia dominate commerce, trade, and the professions, despite
numerous legal restrictions against them, in some cases (i.e. Indonesia)
being legally barred from public universities. Ethnic Germans have always
been predominant in the commerce and leadership roles of the nations of
Eastern Europe despite numerous attempts to reduce their influence.
Nor can such behavior be attributed solely to events happening only in
particular countries. When one sees, say, Chinese-Americans are
disproportionately represented in such fields as engineering, science, and
other technical professions, you might contend that this has to do with
events peculiar to the history of the United States or to those particular
Chinese who decided to emigrate to the US. That contention becomes far
less plausible when you discover that ethnic Chinese are also
disproportionately represented in the technical professions in Canada,
Australia, Southeast Asia, and Latin America. When you observe that
Jewish-Americans have been predominant in in the garment industry, you might
think this has to do with certain characteristics peculiar to
Jewish-Americans, or the US, or both. This holds far less water when you
see that Jews have been dominant in the garment industry in regions and
time-periods as diverse as the Ottoman Empire, the Russian Czarist Empire,
and modern-day South America. The inescapable conclusion that you must draw
is that certain ethnic groups tend to do certain things well. This is not
an excuse to stereotype or pigeon-hole people, but merely to observe that
different people have different characteristics. The TV show 'Queer Eye for
the Straight Guy' demonstrates what I think we all know - homosexuals tend
to know more about fashion, hair-dressing, grooming, and interior design
than the average heterosexual male. Skills, capabilities, and
predilictions are not and have never been distributed evenly across ethnic
cultures. |
|
| Back to top |
|
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Gloria Stevens
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2004 5:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Jews in the Ivy Leagues |
|
|
If you are not for yourself, Then who is?
If you are only for yourself, Then what are you?
If not now, Then when?
I first encountered this jewsih proverb while inebriated at a New York
city penthouse. Several seniors at Choate-Rosemary Hall were in the
city and, to be blunt, they were attracted to my Midwestern charm. So
there I was, the upper eastside, in a million+ dollar condo, thinking
to myself how wounderful it would be to obtain these material
pleasures one day. I truly held a deep respect for the jewish people.
They seemed to overcome insurmountable odds, in order to gain wealth
and powere in whatever society they resided in. They did not occupy
themselves with frivilous pursuits, not did they partake in
demagoguery. It seemed to me that they were the bastion of
rationalism. All behavior and beliefs were based on reason and
empirical evidence. One thingd bothered me , though. I couldnt seem to
explain or understand the deep anti-semitism that pervaded many
societies in the present day, and throughout history. After much
thought I have concluded that their are three
"nrf" <noglikirf@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<vFERb.130946$sv6.695075@attbi_s52>...
| Quote: | "Gloria Stevens" <joecarder@mailvault.com> wrote in message
news:43c6046b.0401250006.6bc0d673@posting.google.com...
The extreme over-representation of the jews in elite colleges is
baffling. They populate over 30% of the student body in places like
Columbia, Penn, and Harvard. In certain grad schools , like yale,
their representation is over 50%. With Jews making up only 2% of the
USA's population, it makes one wonder how this egregious disparity has
been able to last in the age of diversity and affirmative action...
It should be a surprise to no-one that certain ethnic groups do certain
things very well. Statistical disparities in the representation of groups
in different occupations, industries, income levels, and educational
institutions have been the rule- not the exception - all across the planet
Moreover, many of these disparities have persisted for generations of even
centuries. Worldwide studies of multiethnic societies found that few, if
any of those societies even roughly approximated the proportional
representation of the different ethnic groups in different sectors of the
society. The simple fact is, skills and abilities have never been
proportionally represented in any group, anytime in history, and in anytime
in the world. You can't name a single nation or a single kingdom or a
single empire in history where the jobs and positions within that state were
divvied proportionally according to population. Nor can this be attributed
solely, or even mostly to explicit favoritism, discrimination, or racism.
Jews of the Ottoman Turkish Empire were predominant in commerce, trade, and
medicine, despite legally being third-class citizens. The ethnic Chinese in
Southeast Asia dominate commerce, trade, and the professions, despite
numerous legal restrictions against them, in some cases (i.e. Indonesia)
being legally barred from public universities. Ethnic Germans have always
been predominant in the commerce and leadership roles of the nations of
Eastern Europe despite numerous attempts to reduce their influence.
Nor can such behavior be attributed solely to events happening only in
particular countries. When one sees, say, Chinese-Americans are
disproportionately represented in such fields as engineering, science, and
other technical professions, you might contend that this has to do with
events peculiar to the history of the United States or to those particular
Chinese who decided to emigrate to the US. That contention becomes far
less plausible when you discover that ethnic Chinese are also
disproportionately represented in the technical professions in Canada,
Australia, Southeast Asia, and Latin America. When you observe that
Jewish-Americans have been predominant in in the garment industry, you might
think this has to do with certain characteristics peculiar to
Jewish-Americans, or the US, or both. This holds far less water when you
see that Jews have been dominant in the garment industry in regions and
time-periods as diverse as the Ottoman Empire, the Russian Czarist Empire,
and modern-day South America. The inescapable conclusion that you must draw
is that certain ethnic groups tend to do certain things well. This is not
an excuse to stereotype or pigeon-hole people, but merely to observe that
different people have different characteristics. The TV show 'Queer Eye for
the Straight Guy' demonstrates what I think we all know - homosexuals tend
to know more about fashion, hair-dressing, grooming, and interior design
than the average heterosexual male. Skills, capabilities, and
predilictions are not and have never been distributed evenly across ethnic
cultures. |
|
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| Back to top |
|
|
nrf
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 8:36 am
Post subject: Re: Jews in the Ivy Leagues |
|
|
"Gloria Stevens" <joecarder@mailvault.com> wrote in message
news:43c6046b.0401280206.5eb1e3a4@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | If you are not for yourself, Then who is?
If you are only for yourself, Then what are you?
If not now, Then when?
I first encountered this jewsih proverb while inebriated at a New York
city penthouse. Several seniors at Choate-Rosemary Hall were in the
city and, to be blunt, they were attracted to my Midwestern charm. So
there I was, the upper eastside, in a million+ dollar condo, thinking
to myself how wounderful it would be to obtain these material
pleasures one day. I truly held a deep respect for the jewish people.
They seemed to overcome insurmountable odds, in order to gain wealth
and powere in whatever society they resided in. They did not occupy
themselves with frivilous pursuits, not did they partake in
demagoguery. It seemed to me that they were the bastion of
rationalism. All behavior and beliefs were based on reason and
empirical evidence. One thingd bothered me , though. I couldnt seem to
explain or understand the deep anti-semitism that pervaded many
societies in the present day, and throughout history. After much
thought I have concluded that their are three
|
I believe there is an easy explanation that has been a prevalent ugly
characteristic of mankind. It's basic xenophobia heightened by jealousy
and wounded pride. Xenophobia for one, because it is the natural
inclination of everybody, no matter what race, creed, or religion, to
associate with those who are similar to you and disassociate with those who
are different from you. This is the basis behind man's natural grouping
towards tribes, clans, and families and is also the ideological basis for
wars based on tribalism, religion, and nationalism. If anybody thinks that
these tendencies are dead, I present to them the Balkan conflicts on the
late 90's or the Rwanda/Burundi genocides of 1993-1994.
Jealousy and wounded pride as points 2 and 3 explain the special hatred that
has been directed to the Jews. The unfortunate reality is that members of
the Jewish Diaspora would have been disliked anywhere simply because of
religious differences, just like all other conflicts throughout the world
that stemmed from religious differences. However, what made the presence of
the Jews especially galling was their tremendous success wherever they
seemed to go (which actually stems from the simple fact that they outworked
and outlearned the surrounding population), which inspired naked jealousy.
Even worse was the tremendous blow to the ego that the Jewish example would
set. Jews would tend to migrate to a particular nation destitute, having
usually been stripped of possessions and be expelled from or flee from
whatever state from which they were emigrating. Witness the expulsions of
the Jews from Spain in 1492, the periodic expulsions of Jews from various
Western-European kingdoms, the pogroms of Eastern Europe, and, of course,
the Holocaust. However, these poverty stricken Jewish immigrants would then
climb upon the ladder to upward mobility and once again surpass the status
of the population surrounding them. It's one thing to dislike a people
because they're different, it's worse to see that they are also more
successful than you are, and the coup de grace to your ego that inflames
people to no end is to observe that those people started from a lower level
than you and then surpassed you on the road to success. Combine these three
things, and murderous resentment and hate is almost inevitable. The same
thing has happened to the Chinese in Southeast Asia despite little if any
religious basis for the hatred. The seed of hatred is man's prediliction
for group-ism and disliking those who are different. Combine that with
jealousy and wounds to the ego, and this sort of criminal hatred is
tragically inevitable.
| Quote: |
"nrf" <noglikirf@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<vFERb.130946$sv6.695075@attbi_s52>...
"Gloria Stevens" <joecarder@mailvault.com> wrote in message
news:43c6046b.0401250006.6bc0d673@posting.google.com...
The extreme over-representation of the jews in elite colleges is
baffling. They populate over 30% of the student body in places like
Columbia, Penn, and Harvard. In certain grad schools , like yale,
their representation is over 50%. With Jews making up only 2% of the
USA's population, it makes one wonder how this egregious disparity has
been able to last in the age of diversity and affirmative action...
It should be a surprise to no-one that certain ethnic groups do certain
things very well. Statistical disparities in the representation of
groups
in different occupations, industries, income levels, and educational
institutions have been the rule- not the exception - all across the
planet
Moreover, many of these disparities have persisted for generations of
even
centuries. Worldwide studies of multiethnic societies found that few,
if
any of those societies even roughly approximated the proportional
representation of the different ethnic groups in different sectors of
the
society. The simple fact is, skills and abilities have never been
proportionally represented in any group, anytime in history, and in
anytime
in the world. You can't name a single nation or a single kingdom or a
single empire in history where the jobs and positions within that state
were
divvied proportionally according to population. Nor can this be
attributed
solely, or even mostly to explicit favoritism, discrimination, or
racism.
Jews of the Ottoman Turkish Empire were predominant in commerce, trade,
and
medicine, despite legally being third-class citizens. The ethnic
Chinese in
Southeast Asia dominate commerce, trade, and the professions, despite
numerous legal restrictions against them, in some cases (i.e. Indonesia)
being legally barred from public universities. Ethnic Germans have
always
been predominant in the commerce and leadership roles of the nations of
Eastern Europe despite numerous attempts to reduce their influence.
Nor can such behavior be attributed solely to events happening only in
particular countries. When one sees, say, Chinese-Americans are
disproportionately represented in such fields as engineering, science,
and
other technical professions, you might contend that this has to do with
events peculiar to the history of the United States or to those
particular
Chinese who decided to emigrate to the US. That contention becomes far
less plausible when you discover that ethnic Chinese are also
disproportionately represented in the technical professions in Canada,
Australia, Southeast Asia, and Latin America. When you observe that
Jewish-Americans have been predominant in in the garment industry, you
might
think this has to do with certain characteristics peculiar to
Jewish-Americans, or the US, or both. This holds far less water when
you
see that Jews have been dominant in the garment industry in regions and
time-periods as diverse as the Ottoman Empire, the Russian Czarist
Empire,
and modern-day South America. The inescapable conclusion that you must
draw
is that certain ethnic groups tend to do certain things well. This is
not
an excuse to stereotype or pigeon-hole people, but merely to observe
that
different people have different characteristics. The TV show 'Queer Eye
for
the Straight Guy' demonstrates what I think we all know - homosexuals
tend
to know more about fashion, hair-dressing, grooming, and interior design
than the average heterosexual male. Skills, capabilities, and
predilictions are not and have never been distributed evenly across
ethnic
cultures. |
|
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| Back to top |
|
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volantus4
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:01 am
Post subject: Re: Jews in the Ivy Leagues |
|
|
If the educational institutions in question only use "objective"
criteria such as grades and scores on Scholastic Educational and
similar tests, then there would be no reasonable basis for suspicion
of discrimination in education based upon ethnicity, religion, or any
other irrelevant criteria. (I do not know if they only use these
objective criteria. If they only use objective criteria, then there is
no reasonable case for asserting unjust and discriminatory bias in
favor of jews.) However, if these educational institutions do use non
reportable, subjective, secretive, and potentially corrupt means to
grant admission to the same, then there is a reasonable suspicion that
ethnic discrimination if favor of jews and possibly other groups may
exist. Jews DO NOT have a monopoly on above average and high I.Q.'s
nor in scholastic achievment in comparison to other ethnic and/or
religious groups in the USA.Rather, the statistical evidence clearly
demonstrates that, although Jews do, on average, have higher IQ's than
the average American, their proportion of all Americans who do have
high IQ's is SMALL statistically such that their over representation
at these institutions of higher learning implies signficant unjust
ethnic bias in their favor either overt or covert. I believe in
"Republican" principles. That is, every individual, including Jewish
indiviudals, should be judged as an individual rather than a member of
a certain ethnic group,race, religion, and/or nationality. However, it
is clear to me that, if the facts stated in the original post are true
and non-objective criteria are used to admit students to these
educational institutions, not only reasonable suspicion but probable
cause exists that those individuals of Jewish ethnicity are granted
unjust and discriminatory advantage with regard to admission to these
educational institutions. An investigation into the same is,
therefore, reasonable and just. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nrf
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Jews in the Ivy Leagues |
|
|
"volantus4" <misters@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:deb969ed.0401281901.6d3e44cd@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | If the educational institutions in question only use "objective"
criteria such as grades and scores on Scholastic Educational and
similar tests, then there would be no reasonable basis for suspicion
of discrimination in education based upon ethnicity, religion, or any
other irrelevant criteria. (I do not know if they only use these
objective criteria. If they only use objective criteria, then there is
no reasonable case for asserting unjust and discriminatory bias in
favor of jews.) However, if these educational institutions do use non
reportable, subjective, secretive, and potentially corrupt means to
grant admission to the same, then there is a reasonable suspicion that
ethnic discrimination if favor of jews and possibly other groups may
exist. Jews DO NOT have a monopoly on above average and high I.Q.'s
nor in scholastic achievment in comparison to other ethnic and/or
religious groups in the USA.Rather, the statistical evidence clearly
demonstrates that, although Jews do, on average, have higher IQ's than
the average American, their proportion of all Americans who do have
high IQ's is SMALL statistically such that their over representation
at these institutions of higher learning implies signficant unjust
ethnic bias in their favor either overt or covert. I believe in
"Republican" principles. That is, every individual, including Jewish
indiviudals, should be judged as an individual rather than a member of
a certain ethnic group,race, religion, and/or nationality. However, it
is clear to me that, if the facts stated in the original post are true
and non-objective criteria are used to admit students to these
educational institutions, not only reasonable suspicion but probable
cause exists that those individuals of Jewish ethnicity are granted
unjust and discriminatory advantage with regard to admission to these
educational institutions. An investigation into the same is,
therefore, reasonable and just.
|
Your assertion is that while Jewish IQ's are high, their high IQ's cannot
explain their great overrepresentation and that therefore they must be
enjoying preferential treatment. The problem with your assertion is, of
course, that IQ is only a small factor in determining one's academic
success. Even more important than IQ is motivation, and Jews have
historically had this in great abundance. We've all met brilliant (high IQ)
but lazy people. Jews not only enjoy high intelligence, but also high
levels of motivation, which is why even when comparing Jews and non-Jews
with the same IQ, Jewish academic performance as measured by, say, grades
and graduation rates tend to be higher.
The bulk of the evidence strongly indicates that any nonobjective criteria
that are being used almost always serves to hurt Jews, not help them, and
yet the Jews have succeeded nonetheless. The Jews are in fact entirely
comparable to Asian-Americans in this respect. Whatever you might think of
ethnic-based AA, you must concede that admissions is a zero-sum game and
therefore whatever doesn't help you must hurt you, and so ethnic-based AA
does Jews (as it does the Asian-Amerians) no favors, which is ironic because
whatever social pathologies or the righting of historical wrongs
ethnic-based AA is designed to remedy were not caused by Jews or by
Asian-Americans. Considerations of geographic diversity also serve to
injure Jews for Jews tend to congregate in certain areas of the country (as
do the Asian-Americans). Not going to find too many Jews (or
Asian-Americans) in, say, the backwoods of Appalachia.
From a historical standpoint, the evidence is clear that Jews have
encountered significant discrimination from colleges and universities.
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/harvard.html
http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~bmaatuk/immigrants.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
volantus4
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:15 am
Post subject: Re: Jews in the Ivy Leagues |
|
|
"nrf" <noglikirf@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ne3Sb.135943$5V2.698024@attbi_s53>...
| Quote: | "volantus4" <misters@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:deb969ed.0401281901.6d3e44cd@posting.google.com...
If the educational institutions in question only use "objective"
criteria such as grades and scores on Scholastic Educational and
similar tests, then there would be no reasonable basis for suspicion
of discrimination in education based upon ethnicity, religion, or any
other irrelevant criteria. (I do not know if they only use these
objective criteria. If they only use objective criteria, then there is
no reasonable case for asserting unjust and discriminatory bias in
favor of jews.) However, if these educational institutions do use non
reportable, subjective, secretive, and potentially corrupt means to
grant admission to the same, then there is a reasonable suspicion that
ethnic discrimination if favor of jews and possibly other groups may
exist. Jews DO NOT have a monopoly on above average and high I.Q.'s
nor in scholastic achievment in comparison to other ethnic and/or
religious groups in the USA.Rather, the statistical evidence clearly
demonstrates that, although Jews do, on average, have higher IQ's than
the average American, their proportion of all Americans who do have
high IQ's is SMALL statistically such that their over representation
at these institutions of higher learning implies signficant unjust
ethnic bias in their favor either overt or covert. I believe in
"Republican" principles. That is, every individual, including Jewish
indiviudals, should be judged as an individual rather than a member of
a certain ethnic group,race, religion, and/or nationality. However, it
is clear to me that, if the facts stated in the original post are true
and non-objective criteria are used to admit students to these
educational institutions, not only reasonable suspicion but probable
cause exists that those individuals of Jewish ethnicity are granted
unjust and discriminatory advantage with regard to admission to these
educational institutions. An investigation into the same is,
therefore, reasonable and just.
Your assertion is that while Jewish IQ's are high, their high IQ's cannot
explain their great overrepresentation and that therefore they must be
enjoying preferential treatment. The problem with your assertion is, of
course, that IQ is only a small factor in determining one's academic
success. Even more important than IQ is motivation, and Jews have
historically had this in great abundance. We've all met brilliant (high IQ)
but lazy people. Jews not only enjoy high intelligence, but also high
levels of motivation, which is why even when comparing Jews and non-Jews
with the same IQ, Jewish academic performance as measured by, say, grades
and graduation rates tend to be higher.
The bulk of the evidence strongly indicates that any nonobjective criteria
that are being used almost always serves to hurt Jews, not help them, and
yet the Jews have succeeded nonetheless. The Jews are in fact entirely
comparable to Asian-Americans in this respect. Whatever you might think of
ethnic-based AA, you must concede that admissions is a zero-sum game and
therefore whatever doesn't help you must hurt you, and so ethnic-based AA
does Jews (as it does the Asian-Amerians) no favors, which is ironic because
whatever social pathologies or the righting of historical wrongs
ethnic-based AA is designed to remedy were not caused by Jews or by
Asian-Americans. Considerations of geographic diversity also serve to
injure Jews for Jews tend to congregate in certain areas of the country (as
do the Asian-Americans). Not going to find too many Jews (or
Asian-Americans) in, say, the backwoods of Appalachia.
From a historical standpoint, the evidence is clear that Jews have
encountered significant discrimination from colleges and universities.
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/anti-semitism/harvard.html
http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~bmaatuk/immigrants.html
|
Different as are the significations in which the ancients used this
term for a science or an art, we may safely infer, from their actual
employment of it, that with them it was nothing else than a logic of
illusion- a sophistical art for giving ignorance, nay, even intentional
sophistries, the colouring of truth, in which the thoroughness of
procedure which logic requires was imitated, and their topic employed
to cloak the empty pretensions. Now it may be taken as a safe and
useful warning, that general logic, considered as an organon, must
always be a logic of illusion, that is, be dialectical, for, as it
teaches us nothing whatever respecting the content of our cognitions,
but merely the formal conditions of their accordance with the
understanding, which do not relate to and are quite indifferent in
respect of objects, any attempt to employ it as an instrument (organon)
in order to extend and enlarge the range of our knowledge must end in
mere prating; any one being able to maintain or oppose, with some
appearance of truth, any single assertion whatever.
Such instruction is quite unbecoming the dignity of philosophy. For
these reasons we have chosen to denominate this part of logic
dialectic, in the sense of a critique of dialectical illusion, and we
wish the term to be so understood in this place |
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