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Tojo Hoki
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:27 pm
Post subject: Question (English Usage) |
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Does one say:
(i) Even if it WERE true...
or
(ii) Even it WAS true...
Also,
Does one say:
(i) For HE who wishes to escape death and corruption
there is but one sole option...
or
(ii) For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption
there is but one sole option...
Thank you,
Tojo
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John Hall
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Question (English Usage) |
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In article <4b8709aa.0410300127.29d6bff8@posting.google.com>,
Tojo Hoki <kamikaze_blue@lycos.co.uk> writes:
| Quote: | Does one say:
(i) Even if it WERE true...
or
(ii) Even it WAS true...
|
Either is acceptable. Traditionally, a supposition following "if" used
the subjunctive form "were", but "was" is now more commonly used.
| Quote: |
Also,
Does one say:
(i) For HE who wishes to escape death and corruption
there is but one sole option...
or
(ii) For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption
there is but one sole option...
|
The second is correct. Rearrange it as "there is but one sole option for
him", and it becomes clear. Prepositions are always followed by the
accusative for of a pronoun, not the nominative.
Strictly speaking, "one sole option" is tautologous. It would be better
to say "there is but one option".
--
John Hall
"Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong."
Oscar Wilde |
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einde. ocallaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Question (English Usage) |
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Tojo Hoki wrote:
| Quote: | Does one say:
(i) Even if it WERE true...
or
(ii) Even it WAS true...
Both are possible, but the second is more informal (and possibly also |
less common).
| Quote: | Also,
Does one say:
(i) For HE who wishes to escape death and corruption
there is but one sole option...
or
(ii) For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption
there is but one sole option...
The second is the only one that is grammatically correct. however it |
sounds very formal and old-fashioned - like something out of the King
James Version translation of the Bible.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Question (English Usage) |
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Tojo Hoki wrote on 30 Oct 2004:
| Quote: | Does one say:
(i) Even if it WERE true...
or
(ii) Even it WAS true...
|
This "one" says only the first when speaking of something
hypothetically, and only the second when "it" used to be true but is no
longer. Despite what anyone else may say about these two usages, they
mean different things in English, even if most native speakers cannot
or do not or will not understand and accept that simple fact. Using one
for the other is ike using a pair of pliers when a socket wrench is
clearly called for.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 4:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Question (English Usage) |
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Tojo Hoki <kamikaze_blue@lycos.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | Does one say:
(i) Even if it WERE true...
|
Contrary to fact. Speaker is thinking: "which was not possible, it
simply could not have been true, but pretend for the moment that it
WAS..." Classic example: "If I were you..." (which of course I am not,
but pretend I was, for a minute..."
| Quote: |
or
(ii) Even it WAS true...
|
Allows for possibility of truth. Speaker is thinking, "All right, maybe
it WAS true, although I hadn't heard of that until now..." Example:
"Even if I WAS invited -- which you say I was, although I never heard it
until now -- I would not have gone."
| Quote: |
Also,
Does one say:
(i) For HE who wishes to escape death and corruption
there is but one sole option...
or
(ii) For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption
there is but one sole option...
|
I wouldn't use that construction myself, as it sounds archaic to me. But
I know I wouldn't put "but" and "sole" in the same phrase -- one is
enough.
I would say "For anyone wishing to escape..."
(You know an option to escape death?)
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Stefano MacGregor
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Question (English Usage) |
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kamikaze_blue@lycos.co.uk (Tojo Hoki) wrote in message news:<4b8709aa.0410300127.29d6bff8@posting.google.com>...
| Quote: | Does one say:
(i) Even if it WERE true...
|
This is present tense, and implies that =it= is not true, and
following this is a hypothetical consequence of =it= being true.
| Quote: | (ii) Even [if] it WAS true...
|
This is past tense, and is the equivalent of saying, "Even though it
was true...", followed by something that happened despite =it= being
true.
| Quote: | (i) For HE who wishes to escape death and corruption
there is but one sole option...
|
Bad. The object of a preposition is never "he". Nothing ever happens
to he; nothing is for he; there is no information about he. He =does=
things.
| Quote: | (ii) For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption
there is but one sole option...
|
Good. The object of a preposition can be "he". Things happen to him;
things are for him; there is information about him. But him never
=does= things.
--
Stefano ("Mr Know-it-All") MacGregor |
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Steve Hayes
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Question (English Usage) |
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On 30 Oct 2004 02:27:02 -0700, kamikaze_blue@lycos.co.uk (Tojo Hoki) wrote:
| Quote: | Does one say:
(i) Even if it WERE true...
|
I wouldn't think badly of him.
| Quote: |
or
(ii) Even it WAS true...
|
it is true no longer.
| Quote: |
Also,
Does one say:
(i) For HE who wishes to escape death and corruption
there is but one sole option...
or
(ii) For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption
there is but one sole option...
|
Neither, but the second is better and omit "sole".
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
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einde. ocallaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Question (English Usage) |
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Stefano MacGregor wrote:
| Quote: | kamikaze_blue@lycos.co.uk (Tojo Hoki) wrote in message news:<4b8709aa.0410300127.29d6bff8@posting.google.com>...
Does one say:
(i) Even if it WERE true...
This is present tense, and implies that =it= is not true, and
following this is a hypothetical consequence of =it= being true.
This isn't the present tense - it's a subjunctive (often called the past |
subjunctive because of its form). But the interpretation is correct.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 2:05 am
Post subject: Re: Question (English Usage) |
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On 2004-10-30 02:27:02 -0700, kamikaze_blue@lycos.co.uk (Tojo Hoki) said:
Even if it WERE true
For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption
there is but one sole option... |
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Tojo Hoki
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Question (English Usage) |
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CyberCypher <cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote in message news:<Xns9592B77B91CCFcctxt2002@130.133.1.4>...
| Quote: | Tojo Hoki wrote on 30 Oct 2004:
and only the second when "it" used to be true but is no
longer. Despite what anyone else may say about these two usages,
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You mean as in "even it WAS true 500 years longer
age, we cannot blablabla"?
Tojo! |
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Tojo Hoki
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 8:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Question (English Usage) |
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Yes, you are right about the tautology.
But those were just some examples that I constructed
in a hurry...
I was primarily interested in the problem of we/were
and he/him.
Tojo!
--
trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote in message news:<1gmgzfe.yni87v1eeicdbN%trio@euronet.nl>...
| Quote: | Tojo Hoki <kamikaze_blue@lycos.co.uk> wrote:
Does one say:
(i) Even if it WERE true...
Contrary to fact. Speaker is thinking: "which was not possible, it
simply could not have been true, but pretend for the moment that it
WAS..." Classic example: "If I were you..." (which of course I am not,
but pretend I was, for a minute..."
or
(ii) Even it WAS true...
Allows for possibility of truth. Speaker is thinking, "All right, maybe
it WAS true, although I hadn't heard of that until now..." Example:
"Even if I WAS invited -- which you say I was, although I never heard it
until now -- I would not have gone."
Also,
Does one say:
(i) For HE who wishes to escape death and corruption
there is but one sole option...
or
(ii) For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption
there is but one sole option...
I wouldn't use that construction myself, as it sounds archaic to me. But
I know I wouldn't put "but" and "sole" in the same phrase -- one is
enough.
I would say "For anyone wishing to escape..."
(You know an option to escape death?) |
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Question (English Usage) |
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Tojo Hoki wrote on 31 Oct 2004:
| Quote: | CyberCypher wrote:
Tojo Hoki wrote on 30 Oct 2004:
and only the second when "it" used to be true but is no
longer. Despite what anyone else may say about these two usages,
You mean as in "even it WAS true 500 years longer
age, we cannot blablabla"?
|
That's not quite grammatical:
"Even if it was true 500 years ago that people could X, we cannot X
today".
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Question (English Usage) |
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Tojo Hoki <kamikaze_blue@lycos.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | CyberCypher <cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote
Tojo Hoki wrote on 30 Oct 2004:
and only the second when "it" used to be true but is no
longer. Despite what anyone else may say about these two usages,
You mean as in "even it WAS true 500 years longer
age, we cannot blablabla"?
|
Yes, that's OK, with a slight change:
Even if it WAS true 500 years ago, we cannot...
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Question (English Usage) |
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[I'm beginning to feel like Areff during his "under protest" phase.
It's a slow Sunday, and the switch to standard time offered an extra
hour for monkey business. So ...]
"einde. ocallaghan" wrote:
| Quote: |
Tojo Hoki wrote:
Does one say:
(i) Even if it WERE true...
or
(ii) Even it WAS true...
Both are possible, but the second is more informal (and possibly also
less common).
|
[ ... ]
Under the traditional rules, they have different meanings.
The first indicates that what is being discussed is unquestionably
not true (i.e., false). "The statement that Ralph Nader is on the
ballot in all 50 states is false -- and even if it WERE true, that
would not mean that Nader has any chance to be elected."
The second indicates uncertainty about truth or falsity: "I still
don't know whether Bush's statement about Saddam's ties to al-Qaeda
was true or false when he made it in early 2003, but even if it WAS
true, it didn't justify the invasion of Iraq." (The foregoing is a
grammatical example and does not necessarily represent my position
on the issue.)
Thank you and g'day.
--
Bob Lieblich
Protesting mildly |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Question (English Usage) |
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On Saturday, in article
<2004103013053316807%@news1.news.adelphia.net> Jeff wrote:
| Quote: | On 2004-10-30 02:27:02 -0700, kamikaze_blue@lycos.co.uk (Tojo Hoki) said:
Even if it WERE true
For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption
there is but one sole option...
|
Everyone seems to have missed the possibility that the original author
had misspelt "soul".
;-)
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi-
national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet
software and decent hardware support." |
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