| Author |
Message |
Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:12 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
|
|
"David Wright Sr." <dwrightsr@alltel.net> writes:
| Quote: | In his novel, _The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress_, Robert Heinlein used a
mixture of Russian, Australian, Chinese and possibly other words and
expressions to show the mixed background of the moon colonists. He was
particularly fond of the Aussie term 'cobber'. He also popularized the
term, 'TANSTAAFL', (which I thought for a long time was a real language
word and not an acronym, based on an unconscious set of assumptions and a
failure to read clearly the text because of those assumptions.)
|
Looking for the expansion, the first mention I see in the _Los Angeles
Times_ is from a 1950 letter, quoted as though it was already a
well-known phrase. (The letter used "there's" rather than "there
ain't".) There are a couple of other hits before Heinlein's 1966
novel.
Milton Friedman, who's often associated with the phrase (and who wrote
a book by that name), said
FRIEDMAN: Peggy Noonan, who has written some very good words that
you have all heard such as "Read my lips"--it's too bad she wasn't
able to enforce the words she wrote--asks if I can remember when I
first used the words "There's no such thing as a free lunch." The
answer is no, I don't remember. However, I am not really the
originator of that statement. A colleague of mine at the Hoover
Institution tried to trace it back and it originated some time in
the nineteenth century out of the phenomenon of saloons. If you
bought a beer, they would give you a free lunch. That's where the
phrase originally came from. It was made most popular in the form
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch" by Robert Heinlein,
who is a science fiction writer and who wrote a wonderful novel
called The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress. The novel's setting is a
settlement on the moon in which there was a revolt and their motto
was "TANSTAAFL"--"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch."
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/wl1991.htm>
Poking around further
_There ain't no such thing as a free lunch_. Despite the claims of
rabid science fiction fans, this bit of folk wisdom has been with
us since the late 1940s. And the term free lunch is even older.
The term _free lunch_ first appeared in print on 23 November 1854,
in _Wide West_ published in San Francisco. It is a reference to
the practice of saloons giving free meals to attract clientele. Of
course the savings is illusory as the price of the drinks
subsidizes the food.
The exact phrase, _there ain't no such thing as a free lunch_, is
also first used in the city by the bay in the 1 June 1949 edition
of the _San Francisco News_ (although this is claimed to be a
reprint of a 1938 editorial so it may be even older, but the
original has not been found).
The science fiction fans come into the picture in 1966 with the
publication of Robert Heinlein's novel _The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress_. He did much to popularize the phrase, but as we have
seen did not coin it. Some claim that he coined the acronym
_TANSTAAFL_. But alas for those science fiction fans, even this is
not true. Tanstaafl is found as far back as October 1949, only a
few months after the earliest appearance of the phrase.
(Source: ADS-L, _Oxford English Dictionary_)
http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorf.htm
So if it was really coined in 1949 and showed up without comment in a
letter to the editor in 1950, it must have been said by someone
well-known and become a catch-phrase. Does anybody around back then
remember who it might have been?
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |"You can't prove it *isn't* so!" is
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |as good as Q.E.D. in folk logic--as
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |though it were necessary to submit
|a piece of the moon to chemical
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |analysis before you could be sure
(650)857-7572 |that it was not made of green
|cheese.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Bergen Evans |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
CDB
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:54 pm
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
|
|
"R H Draney" <dadoctah@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:d370sh02003@drn.newsguy.com...
| Quote: | Areff filted:
Donna Richoux wrote:
Those never came up. As you suggest, there are not many identifiable
Canadianisms, and Australianisms would just be encountered as a
curiosity, like singing and explaining "Waltzing Matilda." It's hard to
think of an actual Australian loanword.
There's "Been there, done that", which IIRC Ben Zimmer identified as
having an AusE origin.
On the Canadian front, I know a few this side of the border who have
picked up
"good on ya"....r
|
I always thought that was Australian too. CDB |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wayne Brown
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:14 pm
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
|
|
Mike Barnes wrote:
| Quote: | "That's not the way we talk" is the headline above an article printed
on today's _Guardian_ (British newspaper), reprinted from the LA
Times. See the original at
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-kenny22mar22,0,2
498777.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
The author complains about the way British English is influencing
American English. Targets include "send up", "spot on", "sacked", and
"queue up". But he saves most of his indignation for "went missing".
|
The approach in the article to English, in my opinion, is unfortunate. The
beauty of English is its worldwide nature with native speakers in various
corners of the earth. Why shouldn't Americans adopt words or expressions
that were once seen as strictly British, strictly Canadian, strictly
Australian etc.? What's the problem if these are synonyms for things
Americans already say a different way? I don't see a problem.
Opening a British newspaper today, the attentive reader can find examples on
practically every page of words, phrases and usage that were considered
strictly American just a few decades ago. Moreover, on analysis of the
language situation in foreign countries, American English seems to be
preferred vehicle of the English language. Why then shouldn't American
English reflect the input of all English-speaking peoples?
Regards, ----- WB. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Dean
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:38 pm
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
|
|
Areff wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux wrote:
Those never came up. As you suggest, there are not many identifiable
Canadianisms, and Australianisms would just be encountered as a
curiosity, like singing and explaining "Waltzing Matilda." It's hard
to think of an actual Australian loanword.
There's "Been there, done that", which IIRC Ben Zimmer identified as
having an AusE origin.
|
tinnie
barbie
dag
sheila
--
John Dean
Oxford |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Frances Kemmish
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:44 pm
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
|
|
John Dean wrote:
| Quote: | Areff wrote:
Donna Richoux wrote:
Those never came up. As you suggest, there are not many identifiable
Canadianisms, and Australianisms would just be encountered as a
curiosity, like singing and explaining "Waltzing Matilda." It's hard
to think of an actual Australian loanword.
There's "Been there, done that", which IIRC Ben Zimmer identified as
having an AusE origin.
tinnie
barbie
dag
sheila
|
walkabout |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ida Goode-Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:33 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
|
|
"Frances Kemmish" <fkemmish@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:3bq7vsF6k2ae5U1@individual.net...
| Quote: | John Dean wrote:
Areff wrote:
Donna Richoux wrote:
Those never came up. As you suggest, there are not many identifiable
Canadianisms, and Australianisms would just be encountered as a
curiosity, like singing and explaining "Waltzing Matilda." It's hard
to think of an actual Australian loanword.
There's "Been there, done that", which IIRC Ben Zimmer identified as
having an AusE origin.
tinnie
barbie
dag
sheila
walkabout
|
rapt
stoked
stoush
arvo
snag
ropeable
connie
manchester
Salvo
That took less then five minutes. I'm sure I can think of loads more.
Ida Goode-Johnson |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Lyle
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:27 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
|
|
David Wright Sr. wrote:
| Quote: | Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote in
news:k6ncn35j.fsf@hpl.hp.com:
The science fiction fans come into the picture in 1966 with the
publication of Robert Heinlein's novel _The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress_. He did much to popularize the phrase, but as we have
seen did not coin it. Some claim that he coined the acronym
_TANSTAAFL_. But alas for those science fiction fans, even this
is
not true. Tanstaafl is found as far back as October 1949, only
a
few months after the earliest appearance of the phrase.
-
There was even mention somewhere of a TINSTAAFL, (There is no such
thing as
a free lunch), from the 20's, so no, Heinlein didn't invent it by any
means. The amazing thing to me was that I didn't recognize it as an
acronym. It was spelled 'tanstaafl' and considering the usage of
other
languages in the book, I unconsciously thought that it was another
'foreign' word, even though it was spelled out as to the meaning. My
mind
unconsciously overlooked that fact and I didn't associate the
spelling with
the meaning. It took 24 years before I 'saw the obvious' and only
after
seeing the term TANSTAAFL on an ACRONYM list, did I finally make the
connection.
[...] |
For reference, I was in early life already aware of the Australian
"counter lunch", a bunch of foc stuff they'd put out on the bar at
mid-day to attract people to buy drinks. I assume it was an American
idea, and it's glancingly referred to by W.C.Fields in some film when
he says something about succotash and such-like. We can imagine a board
outside a bar proclaiming "Free Lunch."
But the first time I heard the expression "There is no free lunch" in
so many words was in Alistair Cooke's Radio 4 _Letter From America_. I
couldn't nail it down to a date, not even a year; but the trajectory of
my life suggests it was probably during the mid 'sixties. He said an
immigrant taxi driver had told him that the big thing he'd learned in
America was "There is no free lunch." Many years later, for research
purposes I asked him if he thought this was the first time the actual
expression had been used; somewhere I still have a letter from
Alistair, saying he didn't think it was new at the time. He didn't
remember the particular broadcast (not surprising). But I'm in no doubt
at all that AC at the time of the original broadcast thought his
British etc listeners would, as I did, find the expression strikingly
novel; I can't speak for American ears.
--
Mike. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Linz
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:53 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
|
|
On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 16:01:26 +0100, Wood Avens
<woodavens@askjennison.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:16:03 +0100, Mike Barnes
april2005@mikebarnes.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
"That's not the way we talk" is the headline above an article printed on
today's _Guardian_ (British newspaper), reprinted from the LA Times. See
the original at
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-kenny22mar22,0,2
498777.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
The author complains about the way British English is influencing
American English. Targets include "send up", "spot on", "sacked", and
"queue up". But he saves most of his indignation for "went missing".
Fascinating. Until today I'd assumed "gone missing" was an
Americanism which had weaselled its way into Britspeak, rather than
the other way round.
|
I'm sure I've seen at least two discussions here about the phrase and
the conclusion was drawn each time that it's a UK phrase that's
migrated.
--
The point of education is to correct ignorance. It cannot deal with stupidity.
(Mortimer Hebblethwaite, uk.misc) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:06 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
|
|
In article <425717EE.AA26ABB0@Verizon.net>, Robert Lieblich at
Robert.Lieblich@Verizon.net hath writ:
| Quote: | "David Wright Sr." wrote:
[ ... ]
a failure to read clearly the text
[ ... ]
Serious questions: (1) Did you intend to put "clearly" where you
did. (2) If so, what was your reasoning?
It's "read" that's out of place. It should be "a failure to |
clearly the text read".
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bill Bonde ('by a commodi
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:06 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
|
|
don groves wrote:
| Quote: |
In article <425717EE.AA26ABB0@Verizon.net>, Robert Lieblich at
Robert.Lieblich@Verizon.net hath writ:
"David Wright Sr." wrote:
[ ... ]
a failure to read clearly the text
[ ... ]
Serious questions: (1) Did you intend to put "clearly" where you
did. (2) If so, what was your reasoning?
It's "read" that's out of place. It should be "a failure to
clearly the text read".
Really? So the marking is similar, yours and the other? |
--
"When you pull a gun, kill a man."
-+John Ford, "My Darling Clementine" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Donna Richoux
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:45 pm
Post subject: Grapes of Wrath quote [WAS: "That's not the way we talk"] |
|
|
Mark Brader <msb@vex.net> wrote:
[snip my request for "any passages from literature about people and
their accents/dialects, and others' opinion of them."]
| Quote: |
Well, there's a passage from Steinbeck that came up in this newsgroup
once before. There are slightly varying versions on the Net and
I don't think anyone checked the actual book at the time, but here's
one version of it. Spoken by Ivy in "The Grapes of Wrath":
Ever'body says words different. ... Arkansas folks says 'em
different, and Oklahomy folks says 'em different. And we seen
a lady from Massachusetts, an' she said 'em differentest of all.
Couldn' hardly make out what she was sayin'.
I've never read the book, but this has got to come up in that sort of
context.
|
Thanks. I read it 20 years ago, but didn't remember that. The passage
was fairly easy to find; the complete novel is at
http://www.techbrothers.com/library/John_Steinbeck/The_Grapes_of_Wrath_v
3.htm
and this is in Chapter 13. Because the purpose of the statement isn't
really self-evident, I'd like to quote some of the fuller context so
people can see what the point of the remark might be.
The Joad family have been forced off their Oklahoma farm and have been
driving, for one long and difficult day, west towards California.
Tom pointed ahead. "There's some folks campin'.
Looks like as good a place as we seen." He slowed
his motor and pulled to a stop beside the road. The
hood of the old touring car was up, and a
middle-aged man stood looking down at the motor. He
wore a cheap straw sombrero, a blue shirt, and a
black, spotted vest, and his jeans were stiff and
shiny with dirt. His face was lean, the deep
cheek-lines great furrows down his face so that his
cheek bones and chin stood out sharply. He looked up
at the Joad truck and his eyes were puzzled and
angry.
Tom leaned out of the window. "Any law 'gainst folks
stoppin' here for the night?"
The man had seen only the truck. His eyes focused
down on Tom. "I dunno," he said. "We on'y stopped
here 'cause we couldn't git no further."
"Any water here?"
The man pointed to a service-station shack about a
quarter of a mile ahead. "They's water there they'll
let ya take a bucket of."
Tom hesitated. "Well, ya s'pose we could camp down
'longside?"
The lean man looked puzzled. "We don't own it," he
said. "We on'y stopped here 'cause this goddamn ol'
trap wouldn' go no further."
Tom insisted. "Anyways you're here an' we ain't. You
got a right to say if you wan' neighbors or not."
The appeal to hospitality had an instant effect. The
lean face broke into a smile. "Why, sure, come on
off the road. Proud to have ya." And he called,
"Sairy, there's some folks goin' ta stay with us.
Come on out an' say how d'ya do. Sairy ain't well," he added.
The tent flaps opened and a wizened woman came out- a
face wrinkled as a dried leaf and eyes that seemed
to flame in her face, black eyes that seemed to look
out of a well of horror. She was small and
shuddering. She held herself upright by a tent flap,
and the hand holding onto the canvas was a skeleton
covered with wrinkled skin.
When she spoke her voice had a beautiful low timbre,
soft and modulated, and yet with ringing overtones.
"Tell 'em welcome," she said. "Tell 'em good an'
welcome."
Tom drove off the road and brought his truck into
the field and lined it up with the touring car. And
people boiled down from the truck; Ruthie and
Winfield too quickly, so that their legs gave way
and they shrieked at the pins and needles that ran
through their limbs. Ma went quickly to work. She
untied the three-gallon bucket from the back of the
truck and approached the squealing children. "Now
you go git water- right down there. Ask nice. Say,
'Please, kin we git a bucket a water?' and say,
'Thank you.' An' carry it back together helpin', an'
don't spill none. An' if you see stick wood to burn,
bring it on." The children stamped away toward the
shack.
By the tent a little embarrassment had set in, and
social intercourse had paused before it started. Pa
said, "You ain't Oklahomy folks?"
And Al, who stood near the car, looked at the
license plates. "Kansas," he said.
The lean man said, "Galena, or right about there.
Wilson, Ivy Wilson."
"We're Joads," said Pa. "We come from right near
Sallisaw."
"Well, we're proud to meet you folks," said Ivy
Wilson. "Sairy, these is Joads."
"I knowed you wasn't Oklahomy folks. You talk queer
kinda- that ain't no blame, you understan'."
"Ever'body says words different," said Ivy.
"Arkansas folks says 'em different, and Oklahomy
folks says 'em different. And we seen a lady from
Massachusetts, an' she said 'em differentest of all.
Couldn' hardly make out what she was sayin'."
I find this touching, but I'll save further remark for later.
--
Best - Donna Richoux |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Donna Richoux
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:45 pm
Post subject: free lunch [WAS: "That's not the way we talk"] |
|
|
Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
[about "TANSTAAFL"--"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch."]
| Quote: |
So if it was really coined in 1949 and showed up without comment in a
letter to the editor in 1950, it must have been said by someone
well-known and become a catch-phrase. Does anybody around back then
remember who it might have been?
|
Just to add to the confusion -- as _Extraordinary Popular Delusions and
the Madness of Crowds_ (Mackay) discussed in 1841, catch phrases and
buzzwords circulated quickly through cities by word of mouth, even
without any celebrity association.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Donna Richoux
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:45 pm
Post subject: Australianisms [WAS: "That's not the way we talk"] |
|
|
Ida Goode-Johnson <dont@spam.me> wrote:
| Quote: | "Frances Kemmish" <fkemmish@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:3bq7vsF6k2ae5U1@individual.net...
John Dean wrote:
Areff wrote:
Donna Richoux wrote:
Those never came up. As you suggest, there are not many identifiable
Canadianisms, and Australianisms would just be encountered as a
curiosity, like singing and explaining "Waltzing Matilda." It's hard
to think of an actual Australian loanword.
There's "Been there, done that", which IIRC Ben Zimmer identified as
having an AusE origin.
tinnie
barbie
dag
sheila
walkabout
|
"Barbie" (barbecue), "sheila," and "walkabout" are recognized by many
Americans as being Australian terms, but they are not been adopted as
everyday US English.
| Quote: |
rapt
stoked
stoush
arvo
snag
ropeable
connie
manchester
Salvo
That took less then five minutes. I'm sure I can think of loads more.
|
Well, if those are supposed to be special Australianisms, they reinforce
even more my impression that Americans haven't borrowed any. I've never
seen those, not with any special meaning.
Would you say that British people have borrowed these senses (whatever
they are) and use them freely, or is it also one notch down -- they
understand them but don't use them?
I'm quite aware that Australians have acquired loads of their own terms,
and that some outsiders might know some of them. But that's not the same
as what we were talking about, which was borrowing a word and
incorporating it freely into one's own active vocabulary. As "gone
missing" appears to be headed in the US.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ida Goode-Johnson
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Australianisms [WAS: "That's not the way we talk"] |
|
|
"Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1gusyf6.xq18w1itfytcN%trio@euronet.nl...
| Quote: | Ida Goode-Johnson <dont@spam.me> wrote:
rapt
stoked
stoush
arvo
snag
ropeable
connie
manchester
Salvo
That took less then five minutes. I'm sure I can think of loads more.
Well, if those are supposed to be special Australianisms, they reinforce
even more my impression that Americans haven't borrowed any. I've never
seen those, not with any special meaning.
Would you say that British people have borrowed these senses (whatever
they are) and use them freely, or is it also one notch down -- they
understand them but don't use them?
|
I chose them because we haven't adopted any of them. It may well be that
they are filtered out of programmes intended for international consumption
(e.g. Neighbours) for that very reason. These are all terms I picked up
whilst there (although some appear in travel guides).
FYI
rapt, stoked = overjoyed
stoush = party, junket
arvo = afternoon
snag = sausage
ropeable = uncontrollably angry
connie = conductor (as used in public transport - possibly now obsolete)
manchester = household linen
Salvo = Salvation Army (cf. "Sally Annes" in the UK)
also
small goods = pre-cooked cold meat
thongs = open-toed sandals
dunny = outside lavatory
ocker = unsophisticated individual
hoon = thug
| Quote: | I'm quite aware that Australians have acquired loads of their own terms,
and that some outsiders might know some of them. But that's not the same
as what we were talking about, which was borrowing a word and
incorporating it freely into one's own active vocabulary. As "gone
missing" appears to be headed in the US.
|
I specifically chose these because they hadn't been incorporated.
Some that have are:-
stubby = small, squat beer bottle
journo = journalist
plonk = cheap wine
Interestingly, Australia is also quite an efficient conduit into BrE for
Americanisms. There can be no other explanation for a basketball/gridiron
term like "turnover" finding its way into rugby or (horror of horrors) a
baseball term like "pinch hitter" finding its way (solecistically) into
cricket.
Ida Goode-Johnson |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wayne Brown
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:16 pm
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
|
|
David Wright Sr. wrote:
| Quote: | "Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation')"
pristoplainical@plazmototifficatious.org> wrote in
news:1113004917.058f5bb5e5ce2208110ea2a128e4257c@teranews:
They have the book in audiobook format and I was surprised to hear
the pronunciation of 'Oh Bog' with the voiced final 'g'. Did
Heinlein intend the word to come from British slang or from Russian?
I see that other folks are asking the same question:
http://excastle.com/blog/archive/2005/02/01/703.aspx
Since Virginia spoke perfect Russian, I would assume that Robert knew
that the final 'g' was pronounced as a 'k'. He heard it all the time
when she was studying it and treated it as 'noise', according to a
passage either in _Expanded Universe_ or _Grumbles From the Grave_. I
can't recall offhand which.
|
The Russian word 'Bog' (God) has a strange pronunciation history.
Traditionally the 'g' does not turn into a 'k, as a final 'g' does in
Russian words, but into the Russian sound that is represented in
transliteration as 'kh.' This has long been considered the classical
pronunciation of 'Bog' in the nominative case (the oblique cases retain the
'g' sound). In Russia, some people adhere to this pronunciation while others
pronounce 'k' at the end.
Regards, ----- WB. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
FAQ
Memberlist
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in