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Message |
John Lawler
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:49 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
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Bill Bonde <pristoplainical@plazmototifficatious.org> writes:
| Quote: | Wayne Brown writes:
Robert Bannister writes:
We have the additional problem of a large number of students who
already speak one variety of Chinese, although in recent times, more
and more know a fair bit of Mandarin. At present, we have two exams,
one for 'beginners' and one for 'advantaged learners'.
Nevertheless, tones do provide a problem for beginners.
That's true. That's why beginners have to concentrate on that feature and
the difficult writing system while others are sweating over gender,
declensions and conjugations of another language.
So just ignore gender, declensions and conjugations and choose a neutral
word order. Will you be understood? If the answer is yes, at least for
the sorts of sentences a beginner would use, that may be the basis for
learning one of these languages, getting the learner over that initial
problem hump that prevents most from continuing beyond the point where
they were last forced.
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A good argument for studying Indonesian. No tones, no funny sounds, 6
vowels (a,e,i,o,u,shwa), Roman alphabet, same word order as English or
Chinese, and no gender, case, declensions, conjugations, or verb tenses.
A half-dozen or so inflections, same as English but more regular. The
fifth-largest (more or less) language in the world by number of speakers,
and -- this is my favorite fact -- mostly spoken by non-native speakers,
who won't complain about your accent. The only drawback is that there
aren't any cognates, so all the vocabulary has to be learned new.
Easiest language I ever studied. You can get good in Indonesian (or Malay,
same language) in about a month of travel or dedicated study. Of course,
the details of social discourse and poetry are much more complex, but that's
true of all languages.
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U Michigan Linguistics
------------------------------------------------------------------
"The limits of my language are the limits of my mind.
All I know is what I have words for." -- Ludwig Wittgenstein |
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Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 6:35 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
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On Sun, 01 May 2005 21:49:35 GMT, jlawler@umich.edu (John Lawler)
wrote:
| Quote: | Bill Bonde <pristoplainical@plazmototifficatious.org> writes:
Wayne Brown writes:
Robert Bannister writes:
We have the additional problem of a large number of students who
already speak one variety of Chinese, although in recent times, more
and more know a fair bit of Mandarin. At present, we have two exams,
one for 'beginners' and one for 'advantaged learners'.
Nevertheless, tones do provide a problem for beginners.
That's true. That's why beginners have to concentrate on that feature and
the difficult writing system while others are sweating over gender,
declensions and conjugations of another language.
So just ignore gender, declensions and conjugations and choose a neutral
word order. Will you be understood? If the answer is yes, at least for
the sorts of sentences a beginner would use, that may be the basis for
learning one of these languages, getting the learner over that initial
problem hump that prevents most from continuing beyond the point where
they were last forced.
A good argument for studying Indonesian. No tones, no funny sounds, 6
vowels (a,e,i,o,u,shwa), Roman alphabet, same word order as English or
Chinese, and no gender, case, declensions, conjugations, or verb tenses.
A half-dozen or so inflections, same as English but more regular. The
fifth-largest (more or less) language in the world by number of speakers,
and -- this is my favorite fact -- mostly spoken by non-native speakers,
who won't complain about your accent. The only drawback is that there
aren't any cognates, so all the vocabulary has to be learned new.
Easiest language I ever studied. You can get good in Indonesian (or Malay,
same language) in about a month of travel or dedicated study. Of course,
the details of social discourse and poetry are much more complex, but that's
true of all languages.
|
And in a clap of thunder Iskander will arrive to tell you horrid
stories about the poor Malay, the runner.... |
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Javi
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 11:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Foreign Languages and American English |
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CyberCypher wrote:
| Quote: | Then, too, there are the obnoxiously
politically powerful anti-Castro Cubans and Cuban-Americans in
Florida whose votes are worth anywhere from 2 to 10 times the votes
of the rest of the legal residents of Florida because the US
government is so stupidly but successfully anti-Castro.
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How can that be? I mean, I do not doubt its veracity, but I wonder
about its implementation. Gerrimandering?
--
Javi |
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Martin Ambuhl
Guest
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 11:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Foreign Languages and American English |
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Javi wrote:
| Quote: | How can that be? I mean, I do not doubt its veracity, but I wonder
about its implementation. Gerrimandering?
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ObAUE: Gerrymandering |
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Steve Summit
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:39 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
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John Lawler wrote:
| Quote: | Easiest language I ever studied. You can get good in Indonesian
(or Malay, same language) in about a month...
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Far be it from me to contradict someone who knows as much about
languages as John, but as it happens just yesterday I was talking
to a friend who has spent a certain amount of time in Indonesia,
and he was telling this story about having learned to ask for
"no sugar" in his iced tea, then went on a trip to Malaysia where
at the first cafe he ate in he had to send back three glasses of
increasingly-sweet tea, only to discover that they don't have the
word he was using for "no", and that they have a very similar-
sounding word meaning "more". (He also told a story about having
some car trouble, and trying to explain to some helpful passersby
that "it doesn't go", only to later realize that he'd been saying
"go away", though this was simply his error, as was the time he
asked someone to "please look in my book" [or something, I forget
the exact word], but accidentally said "please look in my trousers".) |
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Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:44 am
Post subject: Re: Foreign Languages and American English |
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On Mon, 02 May 2005 17:52:13 GMT, Martin Ambuhl
<mambuhl@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Javi wrote:
How can that be? I mean, I do not doubt its veracity, but I wonder
about its implementation. Gerrimandering?
ObAUE: Gerrymandering
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Knew a chap called Mander once. People owned paintworks. not Gerry
though. |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 1:18 am
Post subject: Re: Foreign Languages and American English |
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On Mon, 02 May 2005 19:44:07 +0200, Javi <poziNOSPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | CyberCypher wrote:
Then, too, there are the obnoxiously
politically powerful anti-Castro Cubans and Cuban-Americans in
Florida whose votes are worth anywhere from 2 to 10 times the votes
of the rest of the legal residents of Florida because the US
government is so stupidly but successfully anti-Castro.
How can that be? I mean, I do not doubt its veracity, but I wonder
about its implementation. Gerrimandering?
|
You should doubt the veracity of the statement. It is patently false.
The anti-Castro Cubans in Florida do have a great deal of power
because they are an organized group that actively lobby Congressmen.
They contribute to the campaigns of politicians that support their
cause. They work the political system in every way possible. They
register to vote, and they always vote.
Their actual votes, though, have no more or no less weight than any
other voter. CyberCypher is using his typical hyperbole to make a
point that doesn't exist.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando FL |
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 1:59 am
Post subject: Re: Foreign Languages and American English |
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Javi wrote on 03 May 2005:
| Quote: | CyberCypher wrote:
Then, too, there are the obnoxiously
politically powerful anti-Castro Cubans and Cuban-Americans in
Florida whose votes are worth anywhere from 2 to 10 times the votes
of the rest of the legal residents of Florida because the US
government is so stupidly but successfully anti-Castro.
How can that be? I mean, I do not doubt its veracity, but I wonder
about its implementation. Gerrimandering?
|
Not gerrymandering but political pandering by politicians in
Washington, DC, as well as in the Florida state capital (wherever that
is --- I could care less, but I won't look it up) to what they consider
a block-voting group of people who will vote for them if they give them
enough anti-Castro rhetoric and legislation.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.
"You've got to get over this idea that there's a rule for everything."
Professor John Lawler, U. Michigan |
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:05 am
Post subject: Re: Foreign Languages and American English |
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Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | I can hardly criticize them,
though, for adapting to the system so well that they have Washington
and Tallahassee (the Florida capitol)
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Oy! |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 6:55 am
Post subject: Re: Foreign Languages and American English |
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On Mon, 2 May 2005 23:59:55 +0000 (UTC), CyberCypher
<cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Javi wrote on 03 May 2005:
CyberCypher wrote:
Then, too, there are the obnoxiously
politically powerful anti-Castro Cubans and Cuban-Americans in
Florida whose votes are worth anywhere from 2 to 10 times the votes
of the rest of the legal residents of Florida because the US
government is so stupidly but successfully anti-Castro.
How can that be? I mean, I do not doubt its veracity, but I wonder
about its implementation. Gerrimandering?
Not gerrymandering but political pandering by politicians in
Washington, DC, as well as in the Florida state capital (wherever that
is --- I could care less, but I won't look it up) to what they consider
a block-voting group of people who will vote for them if they give them
enough anti-Castro rhetoric and legislation.
|
The thing that pisses people off about the anti-Castro Cuban-Americans
is that they have figured out how to work the American political
system and do a masterful job of it. Here's a bunch of
non-native-born people that came over to this country in anything from
inner-tubes to rafts made of oil drums lashed together and very
quickly learned how to survive and prosper.
We have Cuban-Americans that were doctors, pharmacists, and lawyers in
Cuba that took jobs as dishwashers and laborers until they could buy
or build their own businesses. They formed networks of personal and
financial aid to help other immigrants.
Most important, they learned how the political system works and set up
a political infrastructure that optimizes their effect on legislation
and US diplomacy. They employ lobbyists, vote as a block, and have a
PR program that is second-to-none where it counts.
One of their own - Mel Martinez - is a former Cabinet Officer and now
a Senator from Florida. There are many other influential
Cuban-American politicians.
As it happens, I strongly disagree with their stance on Cuban-American
relations and their general objectives. I can hardly criticize them,
though, for adapting to the system so well that they have Washington
and Tallahassee (the Florida capitol) "pandering" to them.
We set up a political system that both allows and encourages the
population to be active in the system. How can you object when the
people do become active?
As far as I'm concerned. the "obnoxious" citizen is the one that runs
away to some dinky-assed little island and does nothing but carp about
the system that he's abandoned.
--
Tony Cooper
Orlando FL |
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Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 4:38 pm
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
|
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John Lawler wrote:
| Quote: | Bill Bonde <pristoplainical@plazmototifficatious.org> writes:
Wayne Brown writes:
Robert Bannister writes:
We have the additional problem of a large number of students who
already speak one variety of Chinese, although in recent times,
more
and more know a fair bit of Mandarin. At present, we have two
exams,
one for 'beginners' and one for 'advantaged learners'.
Nevertheless, tones do provide a problem for beginners.
That's true. That's why beginners have to concentrate on that
feature and
the difficult writing system while others are sweating over
gender,
declensions and conjugations of another language.
So just ignore gender, declensions and conjugations and choose a
neutral
word order. Will you be understood? If the answer is yes, at least
for
the sorts of sentences a beginner would use, that may be the basis
for
learning one of these languages, getting the learner over that
initial
problem hump that prevents most from continuing beyond the point
where
they were last forced.
A good argument for studying Indonesian. No tones, no funny sounds,
6
vowels (a,e,i,o,u,shwa), Roman alphabet, same word order as English
or
Chinese, and no gender, case, declensions, conjugations, or verb
tenses.
A half-dozen or so inflections, same as English but more regular.
The
fifth-largest (more or less) language in the world by number of
speakers,
and -- this is my favorite fact -- mostly spoken by non-native
speakers,
who won't complain about your accent. The only drawback is that
there
aren't any cognates, so all the vocabulary has to be learned new.
Easiest language I ever studied. You can get good in Indonesian (or
Malay,
same language) in about a month of travel or dedicated study. Of
course,
the details of social discourse and poetry are much more complex, but
that's
true of all languages.
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U Michigan Linguistics
------------------------------------------------------------------
"The limits of my language are the limits of my mind.
All I know is what I have words for." -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
|
By same word order, do you mean that it is also SVO? I thought that it
used "noun adjective" rather than "adjective noun".
However, it is certainly the easiest language that I have encountered.
Interestingly different but not hard.
--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair |
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