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Don Phillipson
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:15 pm
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
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"Wood Avens" <woodavens@askjennison.com> wrote in message
news:l37d519vehf5i4c7ru86monink08lpcgds@4ax.com...
| Quote: | Fascinating. Until today I'd assumed "gone missing" was an
Americanism which had weaselled its way into Britspeak, rather than
the other way round.
|
This appears to have begun in the RAF in WW2.
The euphemism for death was "gone for a Burton:"
but many aircrews were simply never seen again,
thus for some months officially categoriized as "missing,"
hence in popular speech "gone missing."
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:57 pm
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Those never came up. As you suggest, there are not many identifiable
Canadianisms, and Australianisms would just be encountered as a
curiosity, like singing and explaining "Waltzing Matilda." It's hard to
think of an actual Australian loanword.
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There's "Been there, done that", which IIRC Ben Zimmer identified as
having an AusE origin.
--
I'm comparatively normal for a guy raised in Brooklyn.
- Alvy Singer |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:37 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
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Don Phillipson <d.phillipson@ttrryytteell.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "Wood Avens" <woodavens@askjennison.com> wrote in message
news:l37d519vehf5i4c7ru86monink08lpcgds@4ax.com...
Fascinating. Until today I'd assumed "gone missing" was an
Americanism which had weaselled its way into Britspeak, rather than
the other way round.
This appears to have begun in the RAF in WW2.
The euphemism for death was "gone for a Burton:"
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Why? Brand name of something? Rhyming slang?
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:37 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
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Mike Barnes <april2005@mikebarnes.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | In alt.usage.english, Donna Richoux wrote:
Mike Barnes <april2005@mikebarnes.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
"That's not the way we talk" is the headline above an article printed on
today's _Guardian_ (British newspaper), reprinted from the LA Times. See
the original at
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-kenny22mar22,0,2
498777.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
(That's not clickable for me, because of the middle indent. I offer
this, which may not work either:)
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-kenny22mar22,0,2
498777.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
The author complains about the way British English is influencing
American English. Targets include "send up", "spot on", "sacked", and
"queue up". But he saves most of his indignation for "went missing".
The headline-writers at The Guardian wrote "It's ruining the language",
which seems to exaggerate the professor's position on the matter,
perhaps in a lame attempt to swell the post bag.
Yeah, and I'd even say that to use the words "complains" and
"indignation" is a bit of overstatement, too.
Possibly, but nowhere does he speak positively, and he does say:
"...a virus that's infecting American media..."
"...betraying perfectly good American idioms..."
"...avoiding the perfectly good American..."
"...that's not the way we talk in this country..."
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True. He's definitely negative, he's not neutral or undecided (or
positive) and he's consistent with what I feel to be the US attitude.
What I meant before was that he's not *wildly* negative, he's somewhat
restrained.
| Quote: |
[...]
It's an interesting topic; all of my life, I've been aware of a strong
cultural reluctance on the part of Americans to adopt British slang and
sayings. So when the odd useful one comes along, I feel like I'm almost
betraying my country by saying it, besides sounding pompous and all that.
Is it just Britishisms that meet such resistance? Are there enough
Canadianisms, Australianisms, etc, to judge?
|
Those never came up. As you suggest, there are not many identifiable
Canadianisms, and Australianisms would just be encountered as a
curiosity, like singing and explaining "Waltzing Matilda." It's hard to
think of an actual Australian loanword.
I've been trying to think of any passages from literature about people
and their accents/dialects, and others' opinion of them. My thought that
looking at examples from famous literature might give us some shared
starting points, a handle, something to talk about in common besides
just swapping anecdotes and speculation...
For example, there must have been fictional characters who deliberately
tried to adopt a higher-class or more standard accent, and how did their
home folks take that, and how did the class they wanted to join feel
about it... Or characters who had to defend their right to speak in the
way they found to be natural...
But at the moment I have only come up with are (l) G.B. Shaw's
_Pygmalion_ (the basis of "My Fair Lady"), which is maybe *too* complex
in its treatment of all the social and personal issues surrounding
change of accent, and (2) the passage from the Bible about the password
sibboleth/shibboleth -- language as identity marker.
Can other people think of examples of this sort of thing? Not just
evidence that people do have accents and dialects, but in particular
about the role of such accents in social roles, as well as in national
and regional and ethnic identities. Particularly as shown by people
trying to adopt, or refusing to adopt, another people's language.
Or maybe non-fiction. It may be time to look at H.L. Mencken's "The
American Language" again, and I suspect there's some of I'm looking for
in the Sixties' books about the black experience.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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David Wright Sr.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:25 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
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Robert Lieblich <Robert.Lieblich@Verizon.net> wrote in
news:425717EE.AA26ABB0@Verizon.net:
| Quote: | "David Wright Sr." wrote:
[ ... ]
a failure to read clearly the text
[ ... ]
Serious questions: (1) Did you intend to put "clearly" where you
did. (2) If so, what was your reasoning?
|
Nope. It was a case of my fingers getting ahead of my thinking. I meant,
"to read the text clearly"
--
David Wright Sr.
Have you ever stopped to think, and
forgot to start again?
To e-mail me, remove 't' from dwrightsr |
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David Wright Sr.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:30 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
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"Bill Bonde ('by a commodius vicus of recirculation')"
<pristoplainical@plazmototifficatious.org> wrote in
news:1113004917.058f5bb5e5ce2208110ea2a128e4257c@teranews:
| Quote: | They have the book in audiobook format and I was surprised to hear the
pronunciation of 'Oh Bog' with the voiced final 'g'. Did Heinlein intend
the word to come from British slang or from Russian?
I see that other folks are asking the same question:
http://excastle.com/blog/archive/2005/02/01/703.aspx
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Since Virginia spoke perfect Russian, I would assume that Robert knew that
the final 'g' was pronounced as a 'k'. He heard it all the time when she
was studying it and treated it as 'noise', according to a passage either in
_Expanded Universe_ or _Grumbles From the Grave_. I can't recall offhand
which.
--
David Wright Sr.
Have you ever stopped to think, and
forgot to start again?
To e-mail me, remove 't' from dwrightsr |
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David Wright Sr.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:32 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
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"David Wright Sr." <dwrightsr@alltel.net> wrote in
news:Xns9632D0A0F3064nokvamli@213.155.197.138:
| Quote: | Since Virginia spoke perfect Russian, I would assume that Robert knew
that the final 'g' was pronounced as a 'k'. He heard it all the time
when she was studying it and treated it as 'noise', according to a
passage either in _Expanded Universe_ or _Grumbles From the Grave_. I
can't recall offhand which.
|
I suspect that the readers of the audio version don't know that.
--
David Wright Sr.
To find the end of Middle English, you discover the exact date and
time the Great Vowel Shift took place (the morning of May 5, 1450,
at some time between neenuh fiftehn and nahyn twenty-fahyv).
Kevin Wald |
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Paul Wolff
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:53 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
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In message <1guptuj.1rigogd14y9k3xN%trio@euronet.nl>, Donna Richoux
<trio@euronet.nl> writes
| Quote: | Don Phillipson <d.phillipson@ttrryytteell.com> wrote:
"Wood Avens" <woodavens@askjennison.com> wrote in message
news:l37d519vehf5i4c7ru86monink08lpcgds@4ax.com...
Fascinating. Until today I'd assumed "gone missing" was an
Americanism which had weaselled its way into Britspeak, rather than
the other way round.
This appears to have begun in the RAF in WW2.
The euphemism for death was "gone for a Burton:"
Why? Brand name of something? Rhyming slang?
Michael Quinion offers a number of supposed origins in his book POSH, |
without any commitment, but suggests that the most likely connection is
with the breweries of Burton-on-Trent, implying 'gone for a beer' [and
may be some time?].
The candidate list is, in brief:
- An obscure RN pulley called a Spanish Burton
- Dangerous shipboard barrel-stowage method
- Burnt'un
- RAF Brethon lifejacket
- Montague Burton tailor -> wooden overcoat
- RAF test venue above Montague Burton shops
- Burton-on-Trent = went
- In the drink (sea crash)
- Unsubstantiated slogan from an alleged pre-war advertisement
in which someone missing from a group has gone for a Burton
beer.
--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo! |
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R H Draney
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:33 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
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Areff filted:
| Quote: |
Donna Richoux wrote:
Those never came up. As you suggest, there are not many identifiable
Canadianisms, and Australianisms would just be encountered as a
curiosity, like singing and explaining "Waltzing Matilda." It's hard to
think of an actual Australian loanword.
There's "Been there, done that", which IIRC Ben Zimmer identified as
having an AusE origin.
|
On the Canadian front, I know a few this side of the border who have picked up
"good on ya"....r |
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David Wright Sr.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:47 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
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Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote in
news:k6ncn35j.fsf@hpl.hp.com:
| Quote: | The science fiction fans come into the picture in 1966 with the
publication of Robert Heinlein's novel _The Moon is a Harsh
Mistress_. He did much to popularize the phrase, but as we have
seen did not coin it. Some claim that he coined the acronym
_TANSTAAFL_. But alas for those science fiction fans, even this is
not true. Tanstaafl is found as far back as October 1949, only a
few months after the earliest appearance of the phrase.
-
|
There was even mention somewhere of a TINSTAAFL, (There is no such thing as
a free lunch), from the 20's, so no, Heinlein didn't invent it by any
means. The amazing thing to me was that I didn't recognize it as an
acronym. It was spelled 'tanstaafl' and considering the usage of other
languages in the book, I unconsciously thought that it was another
'foreign' word, even though it was spelled out as to the meaning. My mind
unconsciously overlooked that fact and I didn't associate the spelling with
the meaning. It took 24 years before I 'saw the obvious' and only after
seeing the term TANSTAAFL on an ACRONYM list, did I finally make the
connection.
Even before that happened, I knew the value of looking for any 'unconscious
assumption', especially when I was faced with a difficult programming
problem, but that really drove it home.
Heinlein, makes a lot of use of the reader's unconscious assumptions as a
matter of technique.
--
David Wright Sr.
If you haven't joined The Heinlein Society, Why Not?
The Heinlein Estate is again matching new member
registrations and fund raising up to $15,000
Make your new membership count twice! |
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:17 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
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Donna Richoux writes:
| Quote: | I've been trying to think of any passages from literature about people
and their accents/dialects, and others' opinion of them.
...
But at the moment I have only come up with are (l) G.B. Shaw's
_Pygmalion_ (the basis of "My Fair Lady"), which is maybe *too* complex
in its treatment of all the social and personal issues surrounding
change of accent, and (2) the passage from the Bible about the password
sibboleth/shibboleth -- language as identity marker.
Can other people think of examples of this sort of thing? Not just
evidence that people do have accents and dialects, but in particular
about the role of such accents in social roles, as well as in national
and regional and ethnic identities. Particularly as shown by people
trying to adopt, or refusing to adopt, another people's language.
|
Well, there's a passage from Steinbeck that came up in this newsgroup
once before. There are slightly varying versions on the Net and
I don't think anyone checked the actual book at the time, but here's
one version of it. Spoken by Ivy in "The Grapes of Wrath":
Ever'body says words different. ... Arkansas folks says 'em
different, and Oklahomy folks says 'em different. And we seen
a lady from Massachusetts, an' she said 'em differentest of all.
Couldn' hardly make out what she was sayin'.
I've never read the book, but this has got to come up in that sort of
context.
--
Mark Brader "How can we believe that?"
Toronto "Because this time it's true!"
msb@vex.net -- Lynn & Jay: YES, PRIME MINISTER |
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:46 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
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"David Wright Sr." wrote:
[ ... ]
| Quote: | a failure to read clearly the text
|
[ ... ]
Serious questions: (1) Did you intend to put "clearly" where you
did. (2) If so, what was your reasoning?
--
Liebs |
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Bill Bonde ('by a commodi
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:03 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
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"David Wright Sr." wrote:
| Quote: |
trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote in news:1guptwt.1ys2i4d1q1qrrN%
trio@euronet.nl:
(snip)
I've been trying to think of any passages from literature about people
and their accents/dialects, and others' opinion of them. My thought that
looking at examples from famous literature might give us some shared
starting points, a handle, something to talk about in common besides
just swapping anecdotes and speculation...
In his novel, _The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress_, Robert Heinlein used a
mixture of Russian, Australian, Chinese and possibly other words and
expressions to show the mixed background of the moon colonists. He was
particularly fond of the Aussie term 'cobber'. He also popularized the
term, 'TANSTAAFL', (which I thought for a long time was a real language
word and not an acronym, based on an unconscious set of assumptions and a
failure to read clearly the text because of those assumptions.)
They have the book in audiobook format and I was surprised to hear the |
pronunciation of 'Oh Bog' with the voiced final 'g'. Did Heinlein intend
the word to come from British slang or from Russian?
I see that other folks are asking the same question:
http://excastle.com/blog/archive/2005/02/01/703.aspx
--
"Throw me that lipstick, darling, I wanna redo my stigmata."
+-Jennifer Saunders, "Absolutely Fabulous" |
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Bill Bonde ('by a commodi
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:05 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
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Robert Lieblich wrote:
| Quote: |
"David Wright Sr." wrote:
[ ... ]
a failure to read clearly the text
[ ... ]
Serious questions: (1) Did you intend to put "clearly" where you
did. (2) If so, what was your reasoning?
It stands as marked and yet doesn't create any obvious ambiguity. I like |
it!
--
"Throw me that lipstick, darling, I wanna redo my stigmata."
+-Jennifer Saunders, "Absolutely Fabulous" |
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Thomas W Ping
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:11 am
Post subject: Re: "That's not the way we talk" |
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On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:07:00 +0100, Mike Barnes wrote:
| Quote: | Is it just Britishisms that meet such resistance? Are there enough
Canadianisms, Australianisms, etc, to judge?
|
Canadians aren't aboot to influence us, eh?
--
Thomas "not in our hoose" Ping |
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