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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:27 am
Post subject: Re: We are confused (was: When does one say 'one'?) |
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On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 00:30:17 GMT, FB <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:54:21 GMT, John Briggs wrote:
It's a joke related to the Royal "We" (traditionally, the monarch never says
"I", always "We")
But when do they do so? I've listened to some recordings of speeches
delivered by the Queen and she always said "I", or "Prince Philip/the Duke
of Edinburgh and I".
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There are some Statutes (laws) which are written in the form of a personal
ordinance by the Queen (or King). In these, she or he, uses the plural
forms We, Us, Our, Ourselves, etc. in a singular sense.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e)
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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:30 am
Post subject: Re: We are confused |
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On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 22:36:49 +0100, Molly Mockford
<nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | At 22:27:49 on Sun, 17 Oct 2004, Molly Mockford
nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote in
GFEvskAVPucBFwea@molly.mockford>:
I don't think the current $monarch ever said "one" particularly often;
however, Princess Anne used to use it heavily; also Prince Charles,
albeit to a lesser extent. I don't think I've ever heard Andrew or
Edward use it (although I have to confess I don't often get around to
chatting to them in the pub).
Which reminds me that some years ago I used to write out many a cheque
for cash to "The Prince of Wales", and did occasionally wonder what my
bank manager made of it.
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Preshumably you were not the only pershon to do thish.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e) |
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John Mazor
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:37 am
Post subject: Re: We are confused |
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"Molly Mockford" <nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote in message
news:OFNt8mBxXucBFwf4@molly.mockford...
| Quote: | At 22:27:49 on Sun, 17 Oct 2004, Molly Mockford
nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote in
GFEvskAVPucBFwea@molly.mockford>:
I don't think the current $monarch ever said "one" particularly often;
however, Princess Anne used to use it heavily; also Prince Charles,
albeit to a lesser extent. I don't think I've ever heard Andrew or
Edward use it (although I have to confess I don't often get around to
chatting to them in the pub).
Which reminds me that some years ago I used to write out many a cheque
for cash to "The Prince of Wales", and did occasionally wonder what my
bank manager made of it.
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Perhaps one is lucky that the bank manager didn't call for the men in white
coats to haul you away for delusions of grandeur! Thee would not be amused.
-- John Mazor
"The search for wisdom is asymptotic."
"Except for Internet newsgroups, where it is divergent..."
-- R J Carpenter
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:25 pm
Post subject: Re: We are confused |
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On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 22:27:49 +0100, Molly Mockford
<nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | At 21:07:48 on Sun, 17 Oct 2004, Luke <lpgmx@f2s.com> wrote in
ckujea$e74$1@news.freedom2surf.net>:
FB wrote:
What about QE2?
She used to take her cue from Margaret "We are a grandmother" Thatcher.
So Her Majesty doesn't say "we" much these days.
I don't think the current $monarch ever said "one" particularly often;
however, Princess Anne used to use it heavily; also Prince Charles,
albeit to a lesser extent. I don't think I've ever heard Andrew or
Edward use it (although I have to confess I don't often get around to
chatting to them in the pub).
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I always felt Princess Anne was actually trying to sound less
egotistical by avoiding "I". The royal family are expected to uphold
the "Queen's English" but perhaps aren't naturally articulate (shall
we say) and get a lot of coaching.
| Quote: | The great benefit of the term (as in the French "on" and the German
"man") is to distinguish between the personal and the impersonal in the
second person (singular or plural). "Where might you buy shoes?" versus
"Where might one buy shoes?", for example, would result in two very
different replies. The junior royals, however, tended to use it in the
first person: "One doesn't much care for that" - which, as far as I
know, has little grammatical validity.
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The problem with impersonal "one" is that although it sounds fine when
used occasionally it can sound rather pompous or contrived (to my ear)
when overused. "One shouldn't eat wild fungi" sounds fine but "One
shouldn't eat wild fungi unless one is sure that one knows what one is
doing" sounds pompous - especially in the pub. I think we
instinctively avoid using "one", and rephrase, in any context which
would commit us to repeating it too often.
| Quote: | The whole purpose of the "royal we" is that it *was* used in the first
person, to distinguish between the individual and the role. Queen
Victoria's famous "We are not amused" doesn't mean "I don't find that
funny"; it means "Because I am a monarch, I can't possibly permit
myself to be seen to laugh at - or even approve of - that sort of
thing".
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I'm sure you're right about the "royal we" but did she ever actually
say "We are not amused?" And, if so, was she just speaking for the
assembled company? There seem to be various accounts e.g.
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Queen-Victoria
Thatcher did actually say "We are a grandmother" but I think it was
just a slip of the tongue - caught between "I am a grandmother" and
"We are grandparents" - which was gleefully seized on by the media.
Let's hope she gets the opportunity to prove me wrong by saying "We
are the mother of a jailbird". Oh please. We promise to be amused.
--
Phil C. |
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Giles Todd
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:09 am
Post subject: Re: We are confused |
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On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:25:16 +0100, Phil C.
<philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Thatcher did actually say "We are a grandmother" but I think it was
just a slip of the tongue - caught between "I am a grandmother" and
"We are grandparents" - which was gleefully seized on by the media.
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Her excuse for her use of the royal 'we' was that she was speaking on
behalf of the Cabinet. She used it increasingly frequently the longer
she was in office (see volume 2 of John Campbell's biography:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0712667814). It was "We are
a grandmother" that blew her excuse out of the water, hence the glee
in the press (and elsewhere).
| Quote: | Let's hope she gets the opportunity to prove me wrong by saying "We
are the mother of a jailbird". Oh please. We promise to be amused.
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That would be a treat. An unlikely one, but a treat nevertheless.
Giles. |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:40 pm
Post subject: Re: We are confused |
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On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 23:09:29 +0200, Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:25:16 +0100, Phil C.
philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> wrote:
Thatcher did actually say "We are a grandmother" but I think it was
just a slip of the tongue - caught between "I am a grandmother" and
"We are grandparents" - which was gleefully seized on by the media.
Her excuse for her use of the royal 'we' was that she was speaking on
behalf of the Cabinet. She used it increasingly frequently the longer
she was in office (see volume 2 of John Campbell's biography:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0712667814). It was "We are
a grandmother" that blew her excuse out of the water, hence the glee
in the press (and elsewhere).
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Maybe but (unaccustomed as I am to defending the Mad Cow) I'm not
entirely convinced. It would only blow her excuse out of the water if
it were deliberate - which begs the question. If, in general, she
hadn't used "we" to speak on behalf of the cabinet and had used "I"
instead, she would gleefully have been accused of being imperious. Can
political leaders ever win that one?
She may be a strange person but I suspect becoming a grandparent had
as much unexpected emotional impact on her as it has on the rest of
us. (In her case, perhaps more so - having given birth to Mark and
Carol, things could only get better, ahem.) Not a situation in which
I'd be quick judge people by their exact choice of words. If her
choice had been deliberate it would have been very, very stupid. But I
might be persuaded by examples of her using a clear royal "we" in
other contexts.
--
Phil C. |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:33 pm
Post subject: Re: We are confused |
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On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 23:27:53 +0100, Peter Duncanson wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 00:30:17 GMT, FB <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote:
On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:54:21 GMT, John Briggs wrote:
It's a joke related to the Royal "We" (traditionally, the monarch never says
"I", always "We")
But when do they do so? I've listened to some recordings of speeches
delivered by the Queen and she always said "I", or "Prince Philip/the Duke
of Edinburgh and I".
There are some Statutes (laws) which are written in the form of a personal
ordinance by the Queen (or King). In these, she or he, uses the plural
forms We, Us, Our, Ourselves, etc. in a singular sense.
|
We are very grateful to everyone of you for your explanations. One is
always curious about such things, one can't help it, but then what can one
do?
Bye, FB
--
"What meaning of this, Mitter Twain?". "I will tell you, Mr Wang, if you
can tell me why a man who possesses one of the most brilliant minds of this
century can't say his prepositions or articles".
(Murder by Death) |
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Nero
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 2:44 pm
Post subject: Re: We are confused |
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FB <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message news:
| Quote: |
But when do they do so? I've listened to some recordings of speeches
delivered by the Queen and she always said "I", or "Prince Philip/the Duke
of Edinburgh and I".
We are very grateful to everyone of you for your explanations. One is
always curious about such things, one can't help it, but then what can one
do?
Referring to oneself in the apparently plural also occurs at the other |
end of the social spectrum ! For example, "Give us it" occurs in
working class speech, meaning "Give me it" (i.e., Give it to me).
From my point of view (West Country) I associate this with the
Midlands or North of England more than anywhere else. Whether this is
dialect or error is another argument I suppose.
Neil |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 4:01 pm
Post subject: Re: We are confused |
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On 21 Oct 2004 01:44:18 -0700, n.murray@bathspa.ac.uk (Nero) wrote:
| Quote: | FB <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message news:
But when do they do so? I've listened to some recordings of speeches
delivered by the Queen and she always said "I", or "Prince Philip/the Duke
of Edinburgh and I".
We are very grateful to everyone of you for your explanations. One is
always curious about such things, one can't help it, but then what can one
do?
Referring to oneself in the apparently plural also occurs at the other
end of the social spectrum ! For example, "Give us it" occurs in
working class speech, meaning "Give me it" (i.e., Give it to me).
From my point of view (West Country) I associate this with the
Midlands or North of England more than anywhere else. Whether this is
dialect or error is another argument I suppose.
|
It was common in Essex when I was a child. I assume it still is e.g
"Giss a kiss".
I noticed on the news yesterday, BTW, that Boris Johnson reverted to
"we" in trying to excuse/justify his actions when insulted and put on
the spot by the brother of Ken Bigley. I think he was instinctively
using it to diffuse responsibility.
--
Phil C. |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:43 am
Post subject: Re: We are confused |
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On 21 Oct 2004 01:44:18 -0700, Nero wrote:
| Quote: | Referring to oneself in the apparently plural also occurs at the other
end of the social spectrum ! For example, "Give us it" occurs in
working class speech
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And in Sméagol's. Er, we're sorry.
Bye, FB
--
Locked from the inside. That can only mean one thing, and I don't know what
it is.
(Murder by Death) |
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