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Granny Crabapple
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:54 pm
Post subject: Still on American pronounciation |
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De-lurking to ask something that has been worrying me for ages.
How long, and why, if anyone knows, have some Americans been saying 'erbs'
for herbs?
Veronica.
West Mids. Yam-yam Country.
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Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Still on American pronounciation |
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Granny Crabapple wrote:
| Quote: | De-lurking to ask something that has been worrying me for ages.
How long, and why, if anyone knows, have some Americans been saying 'erbs'
for herbs?
I understand taht this was the original pronunciation. "Language |
colonies" often retain vocabulary, pronunciation and grammar forms taht
have died out in the "mother country", e.g. "tea" is pronounced "tay" in
many parts of Ireland - this was the standard pronunciation in the 18th
century, as can be seen from rhymes in 18th century poetry.
regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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Granny Crabapple
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 6:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Still on American pronounciation |
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"Einde O'Callaghan" <einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote in message
news:2rcu14F17mmjdU1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | Granny Crabapple wrote:
De-lurking to ask something that has been worrying me for ages.
How long, and why, if anyone knows, have some Americans been saying
'erbs'
for herbs?
I understand taht this was the original pronunciation. "Language
colonies" often retain vocabulary, pronunciation and grammar forms taht
have died out in the "mother country", e.g. "tea" is pronounced "tay" in
many parts of Ireland - this was the standard pronunciation in the 18th
century, as can be seen from rhymes in 18th century poetry.
|
Yes, the root is 'erby' but I can't recall hearing it on TV or radio
programmes until quite recently. Has the old pronunciation always been
commonly used in the USA - or parts of?
I must have been listening to the wrong programmes. It might also explain
'route' as in our 'root', and their 'rout'.
Veronica
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John Mazor
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:42 am
Post subject: Re: Still on American pronounciation |
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"Granny Crabapple" <plumjam@[reallywild]blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:HTd4d.105$%W2.7@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| Quote: |
"Einde O'Callaghan" <einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote in message
news:2rcu14F17mmjdU1@uni-berlin.de...
Granny Crabapple wrote:
De-lurking to ask something that has been worrying me for ages.
How long, and why, if anyone knows, have some Americans been saying
'erbs'
for herbs?
I understand taht this was the original pronunciation. "Language
colonies" often retain vocabulary, pronunciation and grammar forms taht
have died out in the "mother country", e.g. "tea" is pronounced "tay" in
many parts of Ireland - this was the standard pronunciation in the 18th
century, as can be seen from rhymes in 18th century poetry.
Yes, the root is 'erby' but I can't recall hearing it on TV or radio
programmes until quite recently. Has the old pronunciation always been
commonly used in the USA - or parts of?
I must have been listening to the wrong programmes. It might also explain
'route' as in our 'root', and their 'rout'.
|
In my youth, I heard and pronounced it with the aspirated h. Later, I
adopted the 'erb pronunciation, as it sounded more sophisticated and was
more commonly used. The dictionary lists both pronunciations.
There also is a backwater (I learned not to say Elizabethan here)
pronunciation, rendered in text dialect as yarb. I've never actually heard
that usage, but I imagine a short, barely aspirated h before the y.
I've only heard route pronounced as in "cow" from rural speakers,
specifically in the southern U.S. but perhaps in other areas. Route as in
root is much more prevalent. There is a program that explores the
historical diversity of American music called "American Routes" with a
deliberate play on the word "roots".
Americans seem to struggle with words from the French. The word forte is
often heard as "for-tay" which as listed as a variant, but probably because
Americans with high school French think that "fort" cannot possibly be the
proper pronunciation. |
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Mike Stevens
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 12:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Still on American pronounciation |
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John Mazor wrote:
| Quote: | Americans seem to struggle with words from the French. The word
forte is often heard as "for-tay" which as listed as a variant, but
probably because Americans with high school French think that "fort"
cannot possibly be the proper pronunciation.
|
In musical terminology, "forte" is always (in the UK at any rate) pronounced
"for-tay" (1), but in that context is derives from Italian rather than from
French.
Interestingly and confusingly, in French the feminine andjective "forte" is
pronounced much like the English "fort", whereas the masculine "fort" is
pronounced more like the English "fore".
(1) I supposed really something between "fot-tay" and "forty".
--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus II
Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island. So is Man. |
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Granny Crabapple
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Still on American pronounciation |
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"John Mazor" <mazorj@erols.com> wrote in message
news:41522a77$0$2648$61fed72c@news.rcn.com...
| Quote: | How long, and why, if anyone knows, have some Americans been saying
'erbs'
for herbs?
I understand taht this was the original pronunciation. .........
Yes, the root is 'erby' but I can't recall hearing it on TV or radio
programmes until quite recently. Has the old pronunciation always been
commonly used in the USA - or parts of?
I must have been listening to the wrong programmes. It might also
explain
'route' as in our 'root', and their 'rout'.
In my youth, I heard and pronounced it with the aspirated h. Later, I
adopted the 'erb pronunciation, as it sounded more sophisticated and was
more commonly used. The dictionary lists both pronunciations.
There also is a backwater (I learned not to say Elizabethan here)
pronunciation, rendered in text dialect as yarb. I've never actually
heard
that usage, but I imagine a short, barely aspirated h before the y.
|
Okay, I see the trend now. Incidentally, my husband has accused me of being
'cloth-eared' and get myself out and talk to my neighbours. I did. Everyone
I spoke to says 'erbs!' But there again, I commonly hear - or rather - I
commonly ear 'my ouse,' 'are you appy today?' and the like. So perhaps I am
nit-picking.
| Quote: |
I've only heard route pronounced as in "cow" from rural speakers,
specifically in the southern U.S. but perhaps in other areas. Route as in
root is much more prevalent. There is a program that explores the
historical diversity of American music called "American Routes" with a
deliberate play on the word "roots".
Americans seem to struggle with words from the French. The word forte is
often heard as "for-tay" which as listed as a variant, but probably
because
Americans with high school French think that "fort" cannot possibly be the
proper pronunciation.
Ah. I think I had better shut up. French is not my for-tea |
Thank you, and farewell.
Veronica |
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Luke
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Still on American pronounciation |
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John Mazor wrote:
| Quote: | Americans seem to struggle with words from the French. The word forte is
often heard as "for-tay" which as listed as a variant, but probably because
Americans with high school French think that "fort" cannot possibly be the
proper pronunciation.
|
And don't they tend to stress the second syllable (ca-FE) instead of the
first (CA-fe)? Why is this?
-Luke |
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Giles Todd
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:17 am
Post subject: Still on American pronunciation (Was: Still on American pron |
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On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:47:30 +0100, Luke <lpgmx@f2s.com> wrote:
| Quote: | And don't they tend to stress the second syllable (ca-FE) instead of the
first (CA-fe)? Why is this?
|
Because there is often a diacritical mark over the 'e', indicating
that the stress should be placed there.
In my childhood idiolect, the correct pronunciation of 'cafe' was
'caff'. Yours may differ, as may those of others in different ways
from yours and mine.
Giles. |
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John Mazor
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:56 am
Post subject: Re: Still on American pronounciation |
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"Mike Stevens" <michael.stevens@which.net> wrote in message
news:2rfa5sF184nefU1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | John Mazor wrote:
Americans seem to struggle with words from the French. The word
forte is often heard as "for-tay" which as listed as a variant, but
probably because Americans with high school French think that "fort"
cannot possibly be the proper pronunciation.
In musical terminology, "forte" is always (in the UK at any rate)
pronounced
"for-tay" (1), but in that context is derives from Italian rather than
from
French.
Interestingly and confusingly, in French the feminine andjective "forte"
is
pronounced much like the English "fort", whereas the masculine "fort" is
pronounced more like the English "fore".
(1) I supposed really something between "fot-tay" and "forty".
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Stop! You're giving me an Excedrin headache! |
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John Mazor
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:59 am
Post subject: Re: Still on American pronounciation |
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"Granny Crabapple" <plumjam@[reallywild]blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:B8v4d.462$%W2.151@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| Quote: |
"John Mazor" <mazorj@erols.com> wrote in message
news:41522a77$0$2648$61fed72c@news.rcn.com...
There also is a backwater (I learned not to say Elizabethan here)
pronunciation, rendered in text dialect as yarb. I've never actually
heard
that usage, but I imagine a short, barely aspirated h before the y.
Okay, I see the trend now. Incidentally, my husband has accused me of
being
'cloth-eared'
|
Here we would say you have a tin ear.
| Quote: | and get myself out and talk to my neighbours. I did. Everyone
I spoke to says 'erbs!' But there again, I commonly hear - or rather - I
commonly ear 'my ouse,' 'are you appy today?' and the like. So perhaps I
am
nit-picking.
|
"You say potato, I say potahto,
You say tomato, I say tomahto,
Potato, potahto,
Tomato, tomahto,
Let's call the whole thing off."
| Quote: | I've only heard route pronounced as in "cow" from rural speakers,
specifically in the southern U.S. but perhaps in other areas. Route as
in
root is much more prevalent. There is a program that explores the
historical diversity of American music called "American Routes" with a
deliberate play on the word "roots".
Americans seem to struggle with words from the French. The word forte
is
often heard as "for-tay" which as listed as a variant, but probably
because
Americans with high school French think that "fort" cannot possibly be
the
proper pronunciation.
Ah. I think I had better shut up. French is not my for-tea
Thank you, and farewell.
|
I think that was a pun?
"He who would pun would pick a pocket."
Maturin responding to Aubrey's "the lesser of two weevils" in "The Far Side
of the World". (However, O'Brian borrowed that from Johnson or Purcell.)
But I still love puns and double entendres, keep them coming. |
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John Mazor
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:00 am
Post subject: Re: Still on American pronounciation |
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"Luke" <lpgmx@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:ciugkp$3gg$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
| Quote: | John Mazor wrote:
Americans seem to struggle with words from the French. The word forte
is
often heard as "for-tay" which as listed as a variant, but probably
because
Americans with high school French think that "fort" cannot possibly be
the
proper pronunciation.
And don't they tend to stress the second syllable (ca-FE) instead of the
first (CA-fe)? Why is this?
|
Yoiks. I have no idea, since I do the same thing! |
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Luke
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 6:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Still on American pronunciation (Was: Still on American |
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Giles Todd wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:47:30 +0100, Luke <lpgmx@f2s.com> wrote:
And don't they tend to stress the second syllable (ca-FE) instead of the
first (CA-fe)? Why is this?
Because there is often a diacritical mark over the 'e', indicating
that the stress should be placed there.
|
I think the acute accent on the 'e' is to indicate that a vowel sound is
made at the end of the word, not that the second syllable is stressed
more than the first. Without the accent, the French would say 'caff',
just as you did as a kid! With it, they say CA-fay not ca-FAY.
I guess a lot of Americans make this assumption as well.
| Quote: | In my childhood idiolect, the correct pronunciation of 'cafe' was
'caff'. Yours may differ, as may those of others in different ways
from yours and mine. |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Still on American pronunciation (Was: Still on American |
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On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 13:36:08 +0100, Luke wrote:
| Quote: | Giles Todd wrote:
Because there is often a diacritical mark over the 'e', indicating
that the stress should be placed there.
I think the acute accent on the 'e' is to indicate that a vowel sound is
made at the end of the word, not that the second syllable is stressed
more than the first. Without the accent, the French would say 'caff',
just as you did as a kid! With it, they say CA-fay not ca-FAY.
I guess a lot of Americans make this assumption as well.
|
I think you're right. I've read "pianoforté", but of course you don't say
"pia-no-for-TE".
Bye, FB
--
L'importante č che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri) |
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