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Scott T. Jensen
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:15 pm
Post subject: Seeking a philosophical label. |
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Atheists are ones that believe there's no god(s), but may believe there's a
life after death, reincarnation, cosmic existence, or such.
Agnostics are ones that don't know if there is or isn't a life after death,
that it is unobtainable information, and are not taking a stand either way.
What do you then call someone who knows they're just an animal and that when
they die, that's it? I'm looking for a formal term for such a person and
one separate from the above two.
I've posted the above to talk.philosophy.misc newsgroup and they didn't know
of a label for such an individual. They whipped up a couple, but that was
their own inventions.
Anyone know of such a label?
Scott Jensen
--
Like a cure for A.I.D.S., Alzheimer, Parkinson, & Mad Cow Disease?
Volunteer your computer for folding-protein research for when it's idle.
Go to http://www.distributedfolding.org/ to sign up your computer.
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david56
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Seeking a philosophical label. |
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In article <10fs9ghbid3p76d@corp.supernews.com>, stj@charter.net says...
| Quote: | Atheists are ones that believe there's no god(s), but may believe there's a
life after death, reincarnation, cosmic existence, or such.
Agnostics are ones that don't know if there is or isn't a life after death,
that it is unobtainable information, and are not taking a stand either way.
What do you then call someone who knows they're just an animal and that when
they die, that's it? I'm looking for a formal term for such a person and
one separate from the above two.
I've posted the above to talk.philosophy.misc newsgroup and they didn't know
of a label for such an individual. They whipped up a couple, but that was
their own inventions.
Anyone know of such a label?
|
We've discussed this at great length, so you might like to review the
newsgroup archive. FWIW, I don't like "atheist" as it seems to imply
that I am failing or refusing to believe in God. And I don't think
there is a term for the people you describe, in the same way that there
isn't a term for people who don't believe in leprechauns or who don't
think that astrology is valid. Absence of belief is not a belief in
something different.
--
David
====
SW France |
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Scott T. Jensen
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Seeking a philosophical label. |
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"david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | stj@charter.net says...
Atheists are ones that believe there's no god(s), but may
believe there's a life after death, reincarnation, cosmic
existence, or such.
Agnostics are ones that don't know if there is or isn't a life
after death, that it is unobtainable information, and are not
taking a stand either way.
What do you then call someone who knows they're just an
animal and that when they die, that's it? I'm looking for a
formal term for such a person and one separate from the
above two.
I've posted the above to talk.philosophy.misc newsgroup
and they didn't know of a label for such an individual.
They whipped up a couple, but that was their own inventions.
Anyone know of such a label?
We've discussed this at great length, so you might like to
review the newsgroup archive.
|
Anyone recall the thread's title?
| Quote: | FWIW, I don't like "atheist" as it seems to imply that I am
failing or refusing to believe in God.
|
I view it as simply not believing that there is a god(s).
| Quote: | And I don't think there is a term for the people you describe,
in the same way that there isn't a term for people who don't
believe in leprechauns or who don't think that astrology is
valid. Absence of belief is not a belief in something different.
|
But that's exactly what atheism is. And what I'm asking isn't something
more narrow (i.e., not believing in leprechauns) but even broader than
atheism. Not only not believing in a god(s), but not even in an afterlife
of any sort.
Scott Jensen
--
Got a business question, problem, or dream?
Discuss it with the professionals that hang out at...
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Scott T. Jensen
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Seeking a philosophical label. |
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"Scott T. Jensen" <stj@charter.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Anyone know of such a label?
|
After posting my original post and replying to david56's reply, I retired to
bed and laid awake wondering what could be the label. I've done this before
and come up with different labels. Tonight, I thought, "Well, such
individuals would say we're just animals. Hmmm. What about 'animalist'?"
I got up, used dictionary.com, and there it was.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=animalist
Sorry for the bother, folks.
Scott Jensen
--
Got a business question, problem, or dream?
Discuss it with the professionals that hang out at...
misc.business.consulting, misc.business.marketing.moderated
misc.business.moderated, and misc.entrepreneurs.moderated |
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John Hall
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Seeking a philosophical label. |
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In article <10fsdctbnu7c4c@corp.supernews.com>,
Scott T. Jensen <stj@charter.net> writes:
| Quote: | "david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote:
We've discussed this at great length, so you might like to
review the newsgroup archive.
Anyone recall the thread's title?
|
Or is willing to identify which of the three groups that this current
thread is being xposted to is being referred to?
--
John Hall
"Distrust any enterprise that requires new clothes."
Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862) |
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Michael DeBusk
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 4:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Seeking a philosophical label. |
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:15:56 -0500, Scott T. Jensen <stj@charter.net> wrote:
| Quote: | What do you then call someone who knows they're just an animal and
that when they die, that's it?
|
I'd want to know how they know.
Belief-wise, though, as opposed to knowledge-wise:
The first "religion" that comes to mind which espouses this belief is
LaVey Satanism. They oppose religions of all kinds, and especially
those which teach about an afterlife. From _The Satanic Bible_:
"There is no heaven of glory bright, and no hell where sinners
roast. Here and now is our day of torment! Here and now is our
day of joy! Here and now is our opportunity! Choose ye this day,
this hour, for no redeemer liveth!"
The school of philosophy that comes to my mind when one claims the
belief that there is no afterlife is "Nihilism".
--
Michael DeBusk, Co-Conspirator to Make the World a Better Place
Did he update http://home.earthlink.net/~debu4335/ yet? |
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 4:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Seeking a philosophical label. |
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Michael DeBusk wrote on 21 Jul 2004:
| Quote: | On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:15:56 -0500, Scott T. Jensen
stj@charter.net> wrote:
What do you then call someone who knows they're just an animal
and that when they die, that's it?
I'd want to know how they know.
Belief-wise, though, as opposed to knowledge-wise:
The first "religion" that comes to mind which espouses this belief
is LaVey Satanism. They oppose religions of all kinds, and
especially those which teach about an afterlife. From _The Satanic
Bible_:
"There is no heaven of glory bright, and no hell where sinners
roast. Here and now is our day of torment! Here and now is our
day of joy! Here and now is our opportunity! Choose ye this
day, this hour, for no redeemer liveth!"
The school of philosophy that comes to my mind when one claims the
belief that there is no afterlife is "Nihilism".
|
That seems to be a misunderstanding of the meaning of the word:
http://www.ditext.com/encyc/frame.html
| Quote: |
Nihilism: The doctrine that nothing, or nothing of a specified and
very general class, exists, or is knowable, or is valuable. Thus
Gorgias held that
1. Nothing exists;
2. Even if something did exist it could not be known;
3. Even if it were known this knowledge could not be communicated.
Schopenhauer's pessimism and denial of the Will expresses a
nihilistic attitude toward the so-called values of the world. As a
social doctrine Nihilism is the belief that progress is possible only
through the destruction of all social and political organizations.
See Anarchism. -- C.A.B.
Nihilism, ethical: The denial of the validity of all distinctions of
moral value. As this position involves in effect the denial of
possibility of all ethical philosophy, it has seldom been taken by
philosophers. In the history of thought, however, a less pure ethical
nihilism sometimes appears as an intermediate stage in a philosophy
which wishes to deny the validity of all previous systems of value as
a preliminary to substituting a new one in their places. -- F.L.W.
|
| Quote: |
Nihilism (Doctrine in ethics) — Nihilism takes its name from the
Latin word for "nothing" and is an extreme form of existentialism or
pessimism which holds that life has no meaning and that even if you
try to achieve your values, in the end your life must necessarily
come to nothing — thus nihilism is similar to fatalism. In fact,
however, nihilism is worse than fatalism because nihilists don't
usually say that life comes to zero but to less than zero, since they
hold that life really just consists of one thing: pain. Nietzsche
(1844-1900) is often said to have been a nihilist because of his
skepticism or perspectivism and his rejection of common, Christian
morality, but I think he was more positive than the nihilist label
would imply, at least in his "middle period". Nihilism is popularly
taken to refer to wanton destruction for its own sake, a sort of
activist irrationalism. [References from deconstructionism,
emotionalism, existentialism, fatalism, and immoralism.]
|
| Quote: |
nihilism: Complete rejection of the existence of human knowledge and
values or denial of the possibility of making any useful distinctions
among things.
|
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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Dr Robin Bignall
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Seeking a philosophical label. |
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On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:22:29 -0500, "Scott T. Jensen" <stj@charter.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | "david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote:
stj@charter.net says...
Atheists are ones that believe there's no god(s), but may
believe there's a life after death, reincarnation, cosmic
existence, or such.
Agnostics are ones that don't know if there is or isn't a life
after death, that it is unobtainable information, and are not
taking a stand either way.
What do you then call someone who knows they're just an
animal and that when they die, that's it? I'm looking for a
formal term for such a person and one separate from the
above two.
I've posted the above to talk.philosophy.misc newsgroup
and they didn't know of a label for such an individual.
They whipped up a couple, but that was their own inventions.
Anyone know of such a label?
We've discussed this at great length, so you might like to
review the newsgroup archive.
Anyone recall the thread's title?
FWIW, I don't like "atheist" as it seems to imply that I am
failing or refusing to believe in God.
I view it as simply not believing that there is a god(s).
And I don't think there is a term for the people you describe,
in the same way that there isn't a term for people who don't
believe in leprechauns or who don't think that astrology is
valid. Absence of belief is not a belief in something different.
But that's exactly what atheism is. And what I'm asking isn't something
more narrow (i.e., not believing in leprechauns) but even broader than
atheism. Not only not believing in a god(s), but not even in an afterlife
of any sort.
I don't believe in deities, afterlife, souls, astrology or leprechauns, |
things that go bump in the night, or mysterious, arcane forces that control
our destinies. I call myself simply an unbeliever, and leave it at that.
Too many atheists seem to me to treat atheism as some sort of religion and
try, like some members of other religions, to convert people to their rabid
anti-deity ideology. I put it all down to some sort of superstition that
some people have to have, and hardly spend a moment thinking about it,
except when posts such as yours turn up. However, I do believe that people
have the right to believe in what they will, provided they don't try to
preach at me or force others (particularly people weaker than themselves)
to follow their practices.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Hertfordshire
England |
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Seeking a philosophical label. |
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In article <10fsedtpp0bue62@corp.supernews.com>, Scott T. Jensen
<stj@charter.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "Scott T. Jensen" <stj@charter.net> wrote:
Anyone know of such a label?
After posting my original post and replying to david56's reply, I
retired to bed and laid awake wondering what could be the label.
I've done this before and come up with different labels. Tonight, I
thought, "Well, such individuals would say we're just animals. Hmmm.
What about 'animalist'?" I got up, used dictionary.com, and there it
was.
|
Ah! You mean like Rudyard Kipling, A. A. Milne, and David Shepherd?
| Quote: | http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=animalist
|
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ -- Dacha's Digital Domicile
"Americans . . ." muttered Otto, "softly dropping their turds wherever they go." ~ Paula Fox: Desperate Characters. |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Seeking a philosophical label. |
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Scott T. Jensen wrote:
| Quote: | Atheists are ones that believe there's no god(s), but may believe
there's a life after death, reincarnation, cosmic existence, or such.
Agnostics are ones that don't know if there is or isn't a life after
death, that it is unobtainable information, and are not taking a
stand either way.
What do you then call someone who knows they're just an animal and
that when they die, that's it? I'm looking for a formal term for
such a person and one separate from the above two.
I've posted the above to talk.philosophy.misc newsgroup and they
didn't know of a label for such an individual. They whipped up a
couple, but that was their own inventions.
Anyone know of such a label?
Scott Jensen
|
I think 'Humanist' is the nearest. There are problems in that the term
'humanism' is employed in different ways by different people. But the
formal organisation most commonly going under the title 'Humanist
Society' is based around the idea that religions and / or concepts of
afterlife are not relevant issues to our understanding of ourselves and
don't offer solutions to our problems. But there's a complication in
that Humanism isn't a narrowly defined dogma. You might follow a
religion but still be a humanist. 'Secularist' is also pretty close to
the idea.
Of course, in your own eyes (and in mine) you are best defined as a
'realist' but only those who share your views would agree that is the
perfect term.
But even if you find a term, the chances are it will always be so
misunderstood that you'll have to explain it. You say "I am an XXXXX"
and people will invariably ask "But what exactly do you mean by that?"
much as they do now if you say "I am an atheist" and they respond "So
you don't believe in God? What about the human soul? What about the
afterlife" and you have to explain the whole thing. Much as "I am a
Christian" only covers a small part of what a person might believe -
there are so many sects that you have to deliver a short speech to
explain precisely what your version Christianity includes and excludes.
I'm not even sure exactly what the Archbishop of Canterbury believes.
All I know for sure is that he doesn't believe exactly what his
predecessor believed and he doesn't believe exactly what his successor
will believe.
So even if you find your term, I don't think you'll be any better off
than you are now.
Oh, and you'll probably be aware that there moves to adopt the term
'bright' as a noun to signify what you want. If you think you mat be a
bright (as opposed to just being bright) try http://www.the-brights.net/
I personally detest the term.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Matthew Huntbach
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Seeking a philosophical label. |
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John Dean (john-dean@frag.lineone.net) wrote:
| Quote: | Scott T. Jensen wrote:
Atheists are ones that believe there's no god(s), but may believe
there's a life after death, reincarnation, cosmic existence, or such.
....
What do you then call someone who knows they're just an animal and
that when they die, that's it? I'm looking for a formal term for
such a person and one separate from the above two.
I think 'Humanist' is the nearest. There are problems in that the term
'humanism' is employed in different ways by different people. But the
formal organisation most commonly going under the title 'Humanist
Society' is based around the idea that religions and / or concepts of
afterlife are not relevant issues to our understanding of ourselves and
don't offer solutions to our problems. But there's a complication in
that Humanism isn't a narrowly defined dogma.
|
I am rather puzzled by Scott's question, since I would have thought that most
people who don't believe in a god or gods also don't believe in other
supernatural phenomena such as the concept of an afterlife. So I would have
thought "atheist" to be the term he wants, with the need for a special term for
those people who believe in an afterlife but not in a god or gods to be
developed should the need ever arise.
The use of "humanism" to mean "atheism" is an expropriation of a term which
had/has an accepted meaning. My dictionary defines "humanist" as "one devoted to
or nursed in the study of human nature; one who pursues the study of the
humanities or classical literature". It makes no mention of such a person having
no belief in a god or gods.
| Quote: | You might follow a
religion but still be a humanist. 'Secularist' is also pretty close to
the idea.
|
Again, this has an accepted meaning which is different from the one you want
to give it. A secularist is one who believes religion should be a private
concern, not necessarily someone who does not believe in a god or gods.
Matthew Huntbach |
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Matti Lamprhey
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Seeking a philosophical label. |
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"Scott T. Jensen" <stj@charter.net> wrote...
| Quote: | Anyone know of such a label?
After posting my original post and replying to david56's reply, I
retired to bed and laid awake wondering what could be the label.
I've done this before and come up with different labels. Tonight,
I thought, "Well, such individuals would say we're just animals.
Hmmm. What about 'animalist'?"
I got up, used dictionary.com, and there it was.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=animalist
Sorry for the bother, folks.
|
Animalism is not an entirely suitable term, because it encompasses the
belief that animals have spirits which need to be appeased by worship
and sacrifice. This doesn't sit well with the concept that death is the
end.
Matti
-- posting from u.c.l.e. |
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david56
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Seeking a philosophical label. |
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|
In article <b7m3cCJprj$AFwT5@jhall.demon.co.uk>, nospam_nov03
@jhall.co.uk says...
| Quote: | In article <10fsdctbnu7c4c@corp.supernews.com>,
Scott T. Jensen <stj@charter.net> writes:
"david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote:
We've discussed this at great length, so you might like to
review the newsgroup archive.
Anyone recall the thread's title?
Or is willing to identify which of the three groups that this current
thread is being xposted to is being referred to?
|
It was probably AUE - sorry, I'm on a slow link at the moment. Search
for my identity on AUE with relevant keywords.
How about "realist"?
--
David
====
SW France |
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raymond o'hara
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Seeking a philosophical label. |
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"Scott T. Jensen" <stj@charter.net> wrote in message
news:10fs9ghbid3p76d@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: | Atheists are ones that believe there's no god(s), but may believe there's
a
life after death, reincarnation, cosmic existence, or such.
Agnostics are ones that don't know if there is or isn't a life after
death,
that it is unobtainable information, and are not taking a stand either
way.
What do you then call someone who knows they're just an animal and that
when
they die, that's it? I'm looking for a formal term for such a person and
one separate from the above two.
I've posted the above to talk.philosophy.misc newsgroup and they didn't
know
of a label for such an individual. They whipped up a couple, but that was
their own inventions.
Anyone know of such a label?
Scott Jensen
|
Freethinker.
| Quote: | --
Like a cure for A.I.D.S., Alzheimer, Parkinson, & Mad Cow Disease?
Volunteer your computer for folding-protein research for when it's idle.
Go to http://www.distributedfolding.org/ to sign up your computer.
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Scott T. Jensen
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Seeking a philosophical label. |
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"Matti Lamprhey" <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "Scott T. Jensen" <stj@charter.net> wrote...
Anyone know of such a label?
After posting my original post and replying to david56's reply, I
retired to bed and laid awake wondering what could be the label.
I've done this before and come up with different labels. Tonight,
I thought, "Well, such individuals would say we're just animals.
Hmmm. What about 'animalist'?"
I got up, used dictionary.com, and there it was.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=animalist
Sorry for the bother, folks.
Animalism is not an entirely suitable term, because it encompasses the
belief that animals have spirits which need to be appeased by worship
and sacrifice. This doesn't sit well with the concept that death is the
end.
|
In the dictionary entries at the above link, none of them state your
definition of animalism. Nor does my hardcover edition of the Collins
English Dictionary.
Scott Jensen
--
Got a business question, problem, or dream?
Discuss it with the professionals that hang out at...
misc.business.consulting, misc.business.marketing.moderated
misc.business.moderated, and misc.entrepreneurs.moderated |
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