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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Should I use the British or American spelling? (check/ch |
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On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:26:30 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
<mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: |
(And to Peter: I prefer the traditional reflexive form.)
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I made a species of Freudian Slip.
I am English but have lived in Northern Ireland for many years. Soon after I
arrived here I was startled to hear the form "avail of". This appears to be
idiomatic in most (all?) registers.
Whenever someone uses the word "avail" it reminds me of this oddity.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u) |
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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Should I use the British or American spelling? (check/ch |
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On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:46:09 GMT, LukeOnder@RioESP.net (Rio) wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:50:23 +0000, Peter Duncanson
mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:21:38 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Luke wrote:
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:27:19 +0000, JPG <me@privacy.net> wrote:
snip
No doubt, but the article in question is a self-published thing
that I
avail to my clients via the web and in hard-copy form.
snip
(Every bugger on the planet will notice that idiosyncratic -- nay,
eccentric -- use of "avail", though.)
My understand of "avail" is that it is what the client will do with the
article. If I make an item available someone else is then _able_ to _avail_
of it.
The way I used the word is quite commonplace, as you must be aware.
Whether that usage is listed in any dictionary or not, I don't know. I
can't be bothered to look!
Luke, I suggest that using words in a way that is normal to the widest |
possible readership might be more important than the issue of
American/British spelling differences.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u) |
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Rio
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Should I use the British or American spelling? (check/ch |
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On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 01:07:11 GMT, Tony Cooper
<tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:46:09 GMT, LukeOnder@RioESP.net (Rio) wrote:
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:50:23 +0000, Peter Duncanson
mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:21:38 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Luke wrote:
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:27:19 +0000, JPG <me@privacy.net> wrote:
snip
No doubt, but the article in question is a self-published thing
that I
avail to my clients via the web and in hard-copy form.
snip
(Every bugger on the planet will notice that idiosyncratic -- nay,
eccentric -- use of "avail", though.)
My understand of "avail" is that it is what the client will do with the
article. If I make an item available someone else is then _able_ to _avail_
of it.
The way I used the word is quite commonplace, as you must be aware.
Whether that usage is listed in any dictionary or not, I don't know. I
can't be bothered to look!
Add me to the list of people that have never seen "avail" used this
way.
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And yoy thought you knew everything, huh?! lol
| Quote: | Your clients may "avail themselves of" your material, but you do
not avail it to them.
You can be bothered to come here and pose your questions about the
wording of a product you intend to use to sell your services, but you
can't be bothered to use a dictionary?
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I didn;t say I never use a dictionary. However, I don't regard
dictionaries a the be-all and end-all defning law-books of language.
Languages evolve faster than dictionaried do, if you really haven;t
noticed.
Anyway, there seem to be too many ignorant idiots in this group for
me, so I'm out of here. Thanks again to the folks who offered genuine
intelligent help.
Luke |
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Should I use the British or American spelling? (check/ch |
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Rio wrote:
[ ... ]
| Quote: | I didn;t say I never use a dictionary. However, I don't regard
dictionaries a the be-all and end-all defning law-books of language.
Languages evolve faster than dictionaried do, if you really haven;t
noticed.
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Oh, we've noticed, all right. It's just that when you undertake a
usage without checking the dictionary or otherwise knowing whether
it's idiomatic, you run a serious risk of screwing up. Of course,
we all screw up. The real vice is getting defensive and refusing to
either justify the usage or admit the error. But no one posting to
this thread would ever do such a thing, not even one-note visitors.
| Quote: | Anyway, there seem to be too many ignorant idiots in this group for
me, so I'm out of here.
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If that's your standard you must spend a lot of time leaving places.
| Quote: | Thanks again to the folks who offered genuine intelligent help.
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You found such people and yet you're leaving. You really *are*
fussy.
I assume the foregoing qualifies me as one of the "many ignorant
idiots."[1]
[1] How many idiots qualify as knowledgeable?
--
Liebs |
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CDB
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Should I use the British or American spelling? (check/ch |
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"Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:md5o31h3d7sofrsgigjjgale0reqc5e34f@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:46:09 GMT, LukeOnder@RioESP.net (Rio) wrote:
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 18:50:23 +0000, Peter Duncanson
mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:21:38 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Luke wrote:
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 16:27:19 +0000, JPG <me@privacy.net> wrote:
snip
No doubt, but the article in question is a self-published thing
that I
avail to my clients via the web and in hard-copy form.
snip
(Every bugger on the planet will notice that idiosyncratic -- nay,
eccentric -- use of "avail", though.)
My understand of "avail" is that it is what the client will do with the
article. If I make an item available someone else is then _able_ to
_avail_
of it.
The way I used the word is quite commonplace, as you must be aware.
Whether that usage is listed in any dictionary or not, I don't know. I
can't be bothered to look!
Luke, I suggest that using words in a way that is normal to the widest
possible readership might be more important than the issue of
American/British spelling differences.
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A brief search of Google (first 100 hits for "avail it" and for "avail
the"),
besides turning up a lot of accidental conjunctions like "avail. The"
and "to no avail, it", does turn up a non-reflexive, transitive use that is
new to me (i.e. not as in "artifices will not avail the sinner in the day
of judgement", of which there was a certain amount).
In this use, the word means "gain access to", "take advantage of",
as in "avail this opportunity", avail the benefits". At least this looks
like some kind of defensible back-formation from "available".
Didn't find anything like your version, though. CDB |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Should I use the British or American spelling? (check/ch |
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Odysseus wrote:
| Quote: | georgeh@ankerstein.org wrote:
2) Write out the name of the element "Al" to
determine which spelling system to use.
Why that example in particular? It would certainly be a poor
diagnostic for standard Canadian spellings; it's one of the few words
we spell the same as is done in the US rather than the UK. The nouns
"curb", "jail", and "tire", with some of the "draft(-)" words, are
the only others I can think of offhand.
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It was the only word that I could think of that would
convey the concept without giving a hint of which I might
prefer. Your words are excellent, but by just spelling
them, you show a preference.
GFH |
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Daniel James
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Should I use the British or American spelling? (check/ch |
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In article news:<423adb7b.7639947@news.individual.net>, Rio wrote:
[some comment and attribution snipped]
| Quote: | In article news:<39ue7pF60luvgU1@individual.net>, Mike Lyle wrote:
(Every bugger on the planet will notice that idiosyncratic --
nay, eccentric -- use of "avail", though.)
No dount you (Mike or Daniel) can tell us all a shorter word that
has the same meaning... If not, I'll happily continue to make good
use of the word "avail".
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Well, it's not very good use of 'avail' because it's going to make half
your readers choke on their cornflakes ...
In that original context:
... the article in question is a self-published thing that
I avail to my clients via the web and in hard-copy form.
"avail" is being used quite unusually. One would normally say that your
clients avail themselves of the content, or that you make it available
to them, or possibly that you avail your clients with the article --
though that last smacks of archaism, to me.
As a simple alternative for the word "avail" in your original sentence
I might suggest "offer" as being more natural than "avail" and of no
greater length, or "give" as being shorter though of not quite the same
meaning.
Personally, I'd go for "make available to" -- and damn the length.
Cheers,
Daniel. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Should I use the British or American spelling? (check/ch |
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Robert Lieblich wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | I assume the foregoing qualifies me as one of the "many ignorant
idiots."[1]
[1] How many idiots qualify as knowledgeable?
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I reckon I'm one.
--
Mike. |
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Should I use the British or American spelling? (check/ch |
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Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: |
Robert Lieblich wrote:
[...]
I assume the foregoing qualifies me as one of the "many ignorant
idiots."[1]
[1] How many idiots qualify as knowledgeable?
I reckon I'm one.
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"Reckon," eh? That would tend to suggest that you don't *know*, and
if you don't know you're not knowledgeable. Q.E.D.
Welcome to the club, Mike.
--
Liebs |
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mUs1Ka
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Should I use the British or American spelling? (check/ch |
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Robert Lieblich wrote:
| Quote: | Mike Lyle wrote:
Robert Lieblich wrote:
[...]
I assume the foregoing qualifies me as one of the "many ignorant
idiots."[1]
[1] How many idiots qualify as knowledgeable?
I reckon I'm one.
"Reckon," eh? That would tend to suggest that you don't *know*, and
if you don't know you're not knowledgeable. Q.E.D.
Depends on which meaning of reckon he meant. |
--
Ray |
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Kat
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 9:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Should I use the British or American spelling? (check/ch |
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On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 08:18:26 -0500, Robert Lieblich
<Robert.Lieblich@Verizon.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Rio wrote:
[ ... ]
I didn;t say I never use a dictionary. However, I don't regard
dictionaries a the be-all and end-all defning law-books of language.
Languages evolve faster than dictionaried do, if you really haven;t
noticed.
Oh, we've noticed, all right. It's just that when you undertake a
usage without checking the dictionary or otherwise knowing whether
it's idiomatic, you run a serious risk of screwing up.
|
PMFJI, but the way Luke used the word "avail" is often heard (in
England, at least), and it was certainly crystal clear to me what he
meant. It may or may not be good English according to the grammar
books (yet) but then a lot of what we use in everyday discussion, is
not strictly "good English". I'm very surprised at the people here who
claimed not to have heard that use of the word before. A Google
search turned up over 150 instances of it. If it's not exactly
"commonplace" usage, as Luke claims, I think it probably will be one
day - simple because it is such an efficient way of saying "make
available to". I am surprised that "make available" is not listed in
my dictionary as one of the meanings of "available". I bet it will be
one day, and may well be already in some dictionaries. As Luke
rightly said, the dictionaries list new usages of words every time a
new edition is published. I'm sure this usage of the word "avail" will
be one day. It may well already be in some dictionaries.
In any case, I can sympathise with Luke getting hacked off. It's
annoying when you come here to discuss something specific and possibly
of interest to many readers (I being one), and one or more nit-picking
pedant waters down the topic with quips about this or that usage of a
word or this or that grammatical slip, when it has no relevance to the
topic of the thread. For God's sake, if they want to take issue with
in that manner, they should start a new thread! I've noticed that the
nit-pickers are usually the folks who don't have anything useful to
contribute to the thread too. It strikes me as a childish form of pure
egotism - a means of getting attention. ("Hey, everybody, see how
clever *I* am!" sort of style.) I don't think it's at all clever. I
think it's rather childish and destructive and it degrades an
otherwise great group.
Kat (England) |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Should I use the British or American spelling? (check/ch |
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Kat wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 08:18:26 -0500, Robert Lieblich
Robert.Lieblich@Verizon.net> wrote:
Rio wrote:
[ ... ]
I didn;t say I never use a dictionary. However, I don't regard
dictionaries a the be-all and end-all defning law-books of
language. Languages evolve faster than dictionaried do, if you
really haven;t noticed.
Oh, we've noticed, all right. It's just that when you undertake
a
usage without checking the dictionary or otherwise knowing
whether
it's idiomatic, you run a serious risk of screwing up.
PMFJI, but the way Luke used the word "avail" is often heard (in
England, at least), and it was certainly crystal clear to me what
he
meant. It may or may not be good English according to the grammar
books (yet) but then a lot of what we use in everyday discussion,
is
not strictly "good English". I'm very surprised at the people here
who
claimed not to have heard that use of the word before. A Google
search turned up over 150 instances of it. If it's not exactly
"commonplace" usage, as Luke claims, I think it probably will be
one
day - simple because it is such an efficient way of saying "make
available to". I am surprised that "make available" is not listed
in
my dictionary as one of the meanings of "available". I bet it will
be
one day, and may well be already in some dictionaries. As Luke
rightly said, the dictionaries list new usages of words every time
a
new edition is published. I'm sure this usage of the word "avail"
will
be one day. It may well already be in some dictionaries.
In any case, I can sympathise with Luke getting hacked off. It's
annoying when you come here to discuss something specific and
possibly
of interest to many readers (I being one), and one or more
nit-picking
pedant waters down the topic with quips about this or that usage of
a
word or this or that grammatical slip, when it has no relevance to
the
topic of the thread. For God's sake, if they want to take issue
with
in that manner, they should start a new thread! I've noticed that
the
nit-pickers are usually the folks who don't have anything useful to
contribute to the thread too. It strikes me as a childish form of
pure
egotism - a means of getting attention. ("Hey, everybody, see how
clever *I* am!" sort of style.) I don't think it's at all clever. I
think it's rather childish and destructive and it degrades an
otherwise great group.
Kat (England)
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"Cat" begins with a c.
--
Mike. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Should I use the British or American spelling? (check/ch |
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Robert Lieblich wrote:
| Quote: | Mike Lyle wrote:
Robert Lieblich wrote:
[...]
I assume the foregoing qualifies me as one of the "many ignorant
idiots."[1]
[1] How many idiots qualify as knowledgeable?
I reckon I'm one.
"Reckon," eh? That would tend to suggest that you don't *know*,
and
if you don't know you're not knowledgeable. Q.E.D.
Welcome to the club, Mike.
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It's an honour, Bob.
--
Mike. |
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Bill McCray
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Should I use the British or American spelling? (check/ch |
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On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:00:19 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
<mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | Kat wrote:
Kat (England)
"Cat" begins with a c.
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But "Kat" begins with a "K".
Bill
Swap first and last parts of username and ISP for address. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Should I use the British or American spelling? (check/ch |
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Bill McCray wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:00:19 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Kat wrote:
Kat (England)
"Cat" begins with a c.
But "Kat" begins with a "K".
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Ah, you spotted that. Nice work!
--
Mike. |
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