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chabral
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:39 pm
Post subject: Spanish vs Spaniards |
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Hi,
Spanish is my native languague and I'm learning english. I'd like to ask
what's the difference in saying:
Spanish people, or
the Spanish,
and saying Spaniards.
Thanks,
--
chabral
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Spanish vs Spaniards |
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On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:39:49 -0300, "chabral"
<l.cabral@gervasoni-ingenieria.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi,
Spanish is my native languague and I'm learning english. I'd like to ask
what's the difference in saying:
Spanish people, or
the Spanish,
and saying Spaniards.
|
My impression is that "Spaniard", though still in dictionaries, has
become rather quaint these days - rather like Chinaman or Frenchman. I
believe I now usually only hear it on football commentaries. We tend
to just use the adjective "Spanish" for preference but "the Spanish"
and "Spanish people" both sound fine.
--
Phil C. |
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John Hall
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Spanish vs Spaniards |
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In article <7ofif0hto1o5b2aol25jd0eud38r320igk@4ax.com>,
Phil C. <nobody@nowhere.com> writes:
| Quote: | My impression is that "Spaniard", though still in dictionaries, has
become rather quaint these days - rather like Chinaman or Frenchman.
|
I don't see anything quaint about "Frenchman". Surely it's still the
normal way to refer to a male person from that country?
| Quote: | I
believe I now usually only hear it on football commentaries. We tend
to just use the adjective "Spanish" for preference but "the Spanish"
and "Spanish people" both sound fine.
|
i would say "a Spaniard" in preference to "a man from Spain" or some
other such phrase. "A Spanish" sounds wrong to me, even though "a
Chinese" is probably now acceptable.
--
John Hall
"The covers of this book are too far apart."
Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 6:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Spanish vs Spaniards |
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On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:56:03 +0100, John Hall
<nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | In article <7ofif0hto1o5b2aol25jd0eud38r320igk@4ax.com>,
Phil C. <nobody@nowhere.com> writes:
My impression is that "Spaniard", though still in dictionaries, has
become rather quaint these days - rather like Chinaman or Frenchman.
I don't see anything quaint about "Frenchman". Surely it's still the
normal way to refer to a male person from that country?
I
believe I now usually only hear it on football commentaries. We tend
to just use the adjective "Spanish" for preference but "the Spanish"
and "Spanish people" both sound fine.
i would say "a Spaniard" in preference to "a man from Spain" or some
other such phrase. "A Spanish" sounds wrong to me, even though "a
Chinese" is probably now acceptable.
|
To my ear, the quaintness comes when such terms seem to concentrate on
the adult male. Although my dictionaries don't restrict the term to
adult males, I wouldn't expect to hear a Spanish woman or child
described as a Spaniard. The female equivalents of Englishman,
Chinaman etc etc either sound clumsy or don't exist. And there simply
isn't an equivalent for children - the age when most of us encounter
the issue of describing origin/nationality. So we get used to just
using the adjectival form - "I'm English/Spanish etc" and restrict the
indefinite article to national terms that seem comfortable with it. I
doubt I've ever used the word "Spaniard" to describe a Spanish person
in normal conversation. Nor has my random sample of one - Mrs C.,
though Spanish people figure prominently in our lives.
FWIW, I wouldn't use the term "Briton" in everyday circumstances,
unless insisting hoarsly that Britons Never Never Shall Be Slaves. I'd
just say I'm British.
--
Phil C. |
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John Hall
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 6:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Spanish vs Spaniards |
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In article <bcnkf0573qs5omm1h010357g0f338cgqr0@4ax.com>,
Phil C. <nobody@nowhere.com> writes:
| Quote: | On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:56:03 +0100, John Hall
nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
i would say "a Spaniard" in preference to "a man from Spain" or some
other such phrase. "A Spanish" sounds wrong to me, even though "a
Chinese" is probably now acceptable.
To my ear, the quaintness comes when such terms seem to concentrate on
the adult male. Although my dictionaries don't restrict the term to
adult males, I wouldn't expect to hear a Spanish woman or child
described as a Spaniard.
|
That's interesting, as it hadn't occurred to me that maleness was
implicit in the word. I think I would find it quite natural to refer to
a woman or a child as a Spaniard.
<snip the rest, with which I would agree>
--
John Hall
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism
by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw |
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Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:24 am
Post subject: Re: Spanish vs Spaniards |
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Phil C. wrote:
<snip>
| Quote: |
To my ear, the quaintness comes when such terms seem to concentrate on
the adult male. Although my dictionaries don't restrict the term to
adult males, I wouldn't expect to hear a Spanish woman or child
described as a Spaniard. The female equivalents of Englishman,
Chinaman etc etc either sound clumsy or don't exist.
|
I've been hearing words like Englishwoman, Irishwoman, Scotswoman,
Frenchwoman all my life and they don't sound clumsy or quaint to me. On
the other hand I would find Chinaman very old-fashioned with slightly
sinister (and racist) overtones reminiscent of old Fu manchu films.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Spanish vs Spaniards |
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On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 00:24:29 +0200, Einde O'Callaghan
<einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote:
| Quote: | Phil C. wrote:
snip
To my ear, the quaintness comes when such terms seem to concentrate on
the adult male. Although my dictionaries don't restrict the term to
adult males, I wouldn't expect to hear a Spanish woman or child
described as a Spaniard. The female equivalents of Englishman,
Chinaman etc etc either sound clumsy or don't exist.
I've been hearing words like Englishwoman, Irishwoman, Scotswoman,
Frenchwoman all my life and they don't sound clumsy or quaint to me. On
the other hand I would find Chinaman very old-fashioned with slightly
sinister (and racist) overtones reminiscent of old Fu manchu films.
|
It's interesting, though (FWIW) that "Englishwoman" gets only a tenth
as many Google hits as "Englishman" - and "Irishwoman" a twentieth of
those of "Irishman". "Scotswoman" manages a mighty 0.23% of
"Scotsman". Even allowing the obvious caveats on such comparisons,
they don't seem to be popular terms.
--
Phil C. |
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chabral
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Spanish vs Spaniards |
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Thank you all for your excelent comments!
--
chabral |
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Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Spanish vs Spaniards |
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Phil C. wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 00:24:29 +0200, Einde O'Callaghan
einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote:
Phil C. wrote:
snip
To my ear, the quaintness comes when such terms seem to concentrate on
the adult male. Although my dictionaries don't restrict the term to
adult males, I wouldn't expect to hear a Spanish woman or child
described as a Spaniard. The female equivalents of Englishman,
Chinaman etc etc either sound clumsy or don't exist.
I've been hearing words like Englishwoman, Irishwoman, Scotswoman,
Frenchwoman all my life and they don't sound clumsy or quaint to me. On
the other hand I would find Chinaman very old-fashioned with slightly
sinister (and racist) overtones reminiscent of old Fu manchu films.
It's interesting, though (FWIW) that "Englishwoman" gets only a tenth
as many Google hits as "Englishman" - and "Irishwoman" a twentieth of
those of "Irishman". "Scotswoman" manages a mighty 0.23% of
"Scotsman". Even allowing the obvious caveats on such comparisons,
they don't seem to be popular terms.
|
I didn't say they were popular, just that they didn't seem strange. I
also have the impression that they are more common in spoken English
than in the written form, which would mean the Google statistics weren't
particularly relevant.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Spanish vs Spaniards |
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On Monday, in article <2m0bh9Fh9dp8U1@uni-berlin.de>
einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de "Einde O'Callaghan"
wrote:
| Quote: | I've been hearing words like Englishwoman, Irishwoman, Scotswoman,
Frenchwoman all my life and they don't sound clumsy or quaint to me. On
the other hand I would find Chinaman very old-fashioned with slightly
sinister (and racist) overtones reminiscent of old Fu manchu films.
|
"Chinaman" might seem slightly old-fashioned; however, to cricketers, it
still has a meaning :-)
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi-
national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet
software and decent hardware support." |
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Molly Mockford
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 11:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Spanish vs Spaniards |
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At 11:55:06 on Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Phil C. <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in
<12anf01dseejas8tr4gntgdn671if1csto@4ax.com>:
| Quote: | It's interesting, though (FWIW) that "Englishwoman" gets only a tenth
as many Google hits as "Englishman" - and "Irishwoman" a twentieth of
those of "Irishman". "Scotswoman" manages a mighty 0.23% of
"Scotsman". Even allowing the obvious caveats on such comparisons,
they don't seem to be popular terms.
|
Don't forget that a huge number of those hits for "Scotsman" will have
been referring to the daily newspaper.
Besides, the three aren't true parallels; you can refer to a Scot,
which you can't do with the English and the Irish.
--
Molly Mockford
I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that
lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be!
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
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Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:41 am
Post subject: Re: Spanish vs Spaniards |
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Molly Mockford wrote:
| Quote: | At 11:55:06 on Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Phil C. <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in
12anf01dseejas8tr4gntgdn671if1csto@4ax.com>:
It's interesting, though (FWIW) that "Englishwoman" gets only a tenth
as many Google hits as "Englishman" - and "Irishwoman" a twentieth of
those of "Irishman". "Scotswoman" manages a mighty 0.23% of
"Scotsman". Even allowing the obvious caveats on such comparisons,
they don't seem to be popular terms.
Don't forget that a huge number of those hits for "Scotsman" will have
been referring to the daily newspaper.
Besides, the three aren't true parallels; you can refer to a Scot,
which you can't do with the English and the Irish.
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True.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:02 am
Post subject: Re: Spanish vs Spaniards |
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On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:47:40 +0100, Molly Mockford
<nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | At 11:55:06 on Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Phil C. <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in
12anf01dseejas8tr4gntgdn671if1csto@4ax.com>:
It's interesting, though (FWIW) that "Englishwoman" gets only a tenth
as many Google hits as "Englishman" - and "Irishwoman" a twentieth of
those of "Irishman". "Scotswoman" manages a mighty 0.23% of
"Scotsman". Even allowing the obvious caveats on such comparisons,
they don't seem to be popular terms.
Don't forget that a huge number of those hits for "Scotsman" will have
been referring to the daily newspaper.
|
I agree - hence the circumspection - but the surprise isn't how many
hits there are for Scotsman (1.4 million) but how _very_ few for
Scotswoman (3000 odd ). "Scottish woman" gets 5,600. "Scotsmen" gets
34,000 compared to 1000 for "Scotswomen".
It's hard to think a formula to compare how often people are simply
referred to as "Scottish", "English", "Irish" etc as these terms are
not exclusive to people but I suspect it's now the overwhelming norm
except for specialised purposes. Similarly, I think that in everyday
life people are normally referred to as Danish, Polish, Swedish,
Turkish rather than Dane, Pole, Swede, Turk etc. though headline
writers seem keen to maintain these terms for brevity and puns.
| Quote: | Besides, the three aren't true parallels; you can refer to a Scot,
which you can't do with the English and the Irish.
|
They weren't really intended to be contrasted with each other - they
all seem to me to point in the same direction. "Frenchman" gets half a
million but "Frenchwoman" only 50,000. But Google is only Google and
we can all choose the conclusions we draw, if any.
--
Phil C. |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Spanish vs Spaniards |
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On Monday, in article
<7j9of0drfo478f509khh0h6nhv8ctd8c97@4ax.com>
nobody@nowhere.com "Phil C." wrote:
| Quote: | It's hard to think a formula to compare how often people are simply
referred to as "Scottish", "English", "Irish" etc as these terms are
not exclusive to people but I suspect it's now the overwhelming norm
except for specialised purposes. Similarly, I think that in everyday
life people are normally referred to as Danish, Polish, Swedish,
Turkish rather than Dane, Pole, Swede, Turk etc. though headline
writers seem keen to maintain these terms for brevity and puns.
|
One change that has annoyed me is that nowadays most people (especially
football commentators) refer to "Argentinians" whereas the people there
had historically always (in English) been called "Argentines".
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi-
national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet
software and decent hardware support." |
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Molly Mockford
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:21 am
Post subject: Re: Spanish vs Spaniards |
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At 19:54:28 on Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Brian {Hamilton Kelly} <bhk@dsl.co.uk>
wrote in <20040719.1854.56946snz@dsl.co.uk>:
| Quote: | "Chinaman" might seem slightly old-fashioned; however, to cricketers, it
still has a meaning 
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You can't count cricketers. To them, "to google" means something
different that it does to the rest of the known universe.
--
Molly Mockford
I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that
lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be!
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
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