| Author |
Message |
John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 6:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Counter |
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David wrote:
| Quote: | In article <2kn8i3F4e3ikU2@uni-berlin.de>, Einde O'Callaghan
einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote:
David wrote:
Thank you, doc. The reason I asked was that I'm currently reading
"The Twelve Apostles" by Anthea Turner in which said writer uses
the term. Information about the writer seems quite sparse except
that she lives in Hertfordshire. I had wondered if she were of
Canadian origin.
But you don't give any context for the use of the word "counter" -
the word is used in Britain with various meanings, some of which
might be deemed domestic - we need some context in order to judge
which meaning it might be.
You think I'm expecting too much intelligence in the subscribers to
these newsgroups?
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I think you're overestimating your own communication skills.
--
John Dean
Oxford
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Counter |
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In article <cc66jl$p7r$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, John Dean
<john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
| Quote: | David wrote:
You think I'm expecting too much intelligence in the subscribers to
these newsgroups?
I think you're overestimating your own communication skills.
|
Probably. I just assumed that the Pondian difference, along with the
household implication, would make it fairly clear as to which meaning
of "counter" was intended.
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/colour/6y-0.htm
Say nothing on Sunday; contemplate this day the Golden Sun:
A Sulphurous Yellow Light - but false - that from Cold Night was Spun. |
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Counter |
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In article <2knhq0F4bkc2U1@uni-berlin.de>, Einde O'Callaghan
<einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote:
| Quote: | David wrote:
You think I'm expecting too much intelligence in the subscribers to
these newsgroups?
No - just a bit of courtesy - a quote of the relevant passage in the
book might be appropriate.
|
"Sonia laid the pen down on the counter, where it gleamed smugly in the
rain-darkened room. For a minute she stood looking at it. Then she
filled the powder container and switched on the machine." Bottom of the
antepenultimate page of cap. 5.
| Quote: | I can think of some surfaces in a house I would call a counter, but I
don't know whether these surfaces are the same as the ones in your
book.
|
And I would reserve the term for shops, etc.
| Quote: | In the translation newsgroups and mailing lists I participate in it
is usual to give some context - I would expect the same courtesy
here - I can't guess what exactly your author has in mind, I've
never read any of her works.
|
I did say "when used domestically", i.e. pertaining to the house, as
opposed to shop, etc., and the stated predominantly North American
English term I would think made it quite reasonably clear what was
intended.
However, I do apologise for confusing you.
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/colour/
How seven spheres, and seven days, and seven earthy metals,
Their colours wind in endless maze, until all motion settles.
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:54 am
Post subject: Re: Counter |
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David wrote:
| Quote: | In article <cc66jl$p7r$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, John Dean
john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
David wrote:
You think I'm expecting too much intelligence in the subscribers to
these newsgroups?
I think you're overestimating your own communication skills.
Probably. I just assumed that the Pondian difference, along with the
household implication, would make it fairly clear as to which meaning
of "counter" was intended.
|
I think there was a problem in that 'domestically' is not automatically
taken as a household reference. Given the USAn tendency for
blood-curdling oaths promising to defend the Constitution 'against all
enemies domestic and foreign' and stuff like that, I believe it rash to
assume that 'domestically' constitutes a 'household implication' all by
itself. And when you said "I know that the word "counter", when used
domestically, is predominantly a North American English term (I.e. both
U.S. American and Canadian), but I am wondering how far it has
encroached on English English." was it not apparent that a brief
definition of which meaning of 'counter' you intended would forestalled
any misunderstanding? Especially since you were apparently starting from
the point of view that 'counter' in your intended sense was little known
over here, it seems strange not to give us a clue.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Counter |
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In article <cc7d74$p6v$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, John Dean
<john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
[Snip]
| Quote: | Especially since
you were apparently starting from the point of view that 'counter' in
your intended sense was little known over here, it seems strange not
to give us a clue.
|
Oh, I don't think it's little known over here. In fact, I think it's
very well known over here, thanks (do I really mean "thanks"?) to the
preponderance of foreign sitcoms, soaps, lattes, and the like. I was
asking about its use in England.
I don't blink an eye when I hear a USian use the term on TV; when I
hear an English person use it, my ears prick up and my mind begins to
wonder about the provenance of that particular instance. (But then, I'm
just nosey!)
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/free/
Free Software: !Jess
- JPEG extractor |
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Don Aitken
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 8:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Counter |
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On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 09:02:06 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | In article <cc7d74$p6v$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, John Dean
john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
[Snip]
Especially since
you were apparently starting from the point of view that 'counter' in
your intended sense was little known over here, it seems strange not
to give us a clue.
Oh, I don't think it's little known over here. In fact, I think it's
very well known over here, thanks (do I really mean "thanks"?) to the
preponderance of foreign sitcoms, soaps, lattes, and the like. I was
asking about its use in England.
I don't blink an eye when I hear a USian use the term on TV; when I
hear an English person use it, my ears prick up and my mind begins to
wonder about the provenance of that particular instance. (But then, I'm
just nosey!)
|
When I was a small child (early fifties) my father built a counter in
our kitchen in the north of England; having built it, he got to say
what it was called. I don't know where he got the idea (or the word)
from - no-one else we knew had one. This was before we had TV, so no
American programmes. He spent some time in the US during the war (Air
Force training) but I don't think he got to spend time in American
people's houses. Too late to ask him now.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". |
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david56
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 9:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Counter |
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Don Aitken typed thus:
| Quote: | On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 09:02:06 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com
wrote:
In article <cc7d74$p6v$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>, John Dean
john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
[Snip]
Especially since
you were apparently starting from the point of view that 'counter' in
your intended sense was little known over here, it seems strange not
to give us a clue.
Oh, I don't think it's little known over here. In fact, I think it's
very well known over here, thanks (do I really mean "thanks"?) to the
preponderance of foreign sitcoms, soaps, lattes, and the like. I was
asking about its use in England.
I don't blink an eye when I hear a USian use the term on TV; when I
hear an English person use it, my ears prick up and my mind begins to
wonder about the provenance of that particular instance. (But then, I'm
just nosey!)
When I was a small child (early fifties) my father built a counter in
our kitchen in the north of England; having built it, he got to say
what it was called. I don't know where he got the idea (or the word)
from - no-one else we knew had one. This was before we had TV, so no
American programmes. He spent some time in the US during the war (Air
Force training) but I don't think he got to spend time in American
people's houses. Too late to ask him now.
|
1950s shops had narrow flat surfaces to separate the customer from
the shopkeeper and the goods - these were surely called counters.
--
David
===== |
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Counter |
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Donna Richoux:
| Quote: | Did we ever come up with a name for mistakes like anachronisms but in
geography?
|
"David":
| Quote: | I don't know. I was wondering about it in the bath the other night.
|
I posted this on April 27, 2003:
| "Anatopism" is given in some dictionaries. The OED1 lists it as rare.
--
Mark Brader | "After that, he spent a long time just reading netnews.
msb@vex.net | Sorry, I mean of course that he was debugging his
Toronto | terminal emulation code..." --Lars Wirzenius |
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 1:27 am
Post subject: Re: Counter |
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|
In article <10egdcmf14035b7@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Brader
<msb@vex.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux:
Did we ever come up with a name for mistakes like anachronisms
but in geography?
"David":
I don't know. I was wondering about it in the bath the other night.
|
And I didn't get a wink of sleep....
| Quote: | I posted this on April 27, 2003:
| "Anatopism" is given in some dictionaries. The OED1 lists it as
| rare.
|
Not having looked it up in the Oxford, I had considered this by analogy
with anachronism, of course, but as the "ana" element in anachronism
means "back(ward)", I had dismissed it. The "ana in analogy means
"according to" which also wouldn't do; and I failed to find a meaning
for "ana" which would be useful in this case.
"Dystopism" might be a good choice had not Dystopia been used as the
opposite of Utopia.
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/photo/0z06-0.htm
Mist over Ladybower, seen from the Yorkshire border
http://www.grough.freeuk.com/j02.htm
Trees I Have Known |
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Dave Swindell
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 1:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Counter |
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In article <4cc95ca1aadavid@dacha.freeuk.com>, David
<david@dacha.freeuk.com> writes
| Quote: | In article <10egdcmf14035b7@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Brader
msb@vex.net> wrote:
Donna Richoux:
Did we ever come up with a name for mistakes like anachronisms
but in geography?
"David":
I don't know. I was wondering about it in the bath the other night.
And I didn't get a wink of sleep....
You were tiddly, eh? (to get back on topic  |
--
Dave OSOS#24 dswindell.gerbil@tcp.co.uk Remove my gerbil for email replies
Yamaha XJ900S & Wessex sidecar, the sexy one
Yamaha XJ900F & Watsonian Monaco, the comfortable one
http://dswindell.members.beeb.net |
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Mike Stevens
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 4:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Counter |
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|
"david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
| Quote: | 1950s shops had narrow flat surfaces to separate the customer from
the shopkeeper and the goods - these were surely called counters.
|
Just so, and I think I (as a speaker of London-UK English) would only use
the word "counter" for a surface in a house if there was open space both
sides of it - not for a work-surface against a wall. But that might well
just my personal idiom.
--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat "Felis Catus II"
My web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk |
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Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Counter |
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|
David wrote:
| Quote: | In article <2knhq0F4bkc2U1@uni-berlin.de>, Einde O'Callaghan
einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote:
David wrote:
You think I'm expecting too much intelligence in the subscribers to
these newsgroups?
No - just a bit of courtesy - a quote of the relevant passage in the
book might be appropriate.
"Sonia laid the pen down on the counter, where it gleamed smugly in the
rain-darkened room. For a minute she stood looking at it. Then she
filled the powder container and switched on the machine." Bottom of the
antepenultimate page of cap. 5.
I would probably call this surface a "worktop" but I have come across |
counters in combined kitchen-dining rooms where the kitchen part is
separated from the dining room by what I would call a counter on which
dishes can be placed as they are being passed from the cooker to teh
dining table or at which one can eqat breakfast perched on a stool.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Counter |
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|
Mark Brader:
| Quote: | I posted this on April 27, 2003:
| "Anatopism" is given in some dictionaries. The OED1 lists it as
| rare.
|
"David" writes:
| Quote: | Not having looked it up in the Oxford, I had considered this by analogy
with anachronism, of course, but as the "ana" element in anachronism
means "back(ward)", I had dismissed it. The "ana in analogy means
"according to" which also wouldn't do; and I failed to find a meaning
for "ana" which would be useful in this case.
|
The etymological fallacy strikes again. The relevant meaning is the one
derived by back formation from "anachronism".
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "It is almost always wrong to strive for
msb@vex.net gilt by association." --Martin Ambuhl |
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 12:37 am
Post subject: Re: Counter |
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|
In article <10ej5bi15oee3b@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Brader
<msb@vex.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Mark Brader:
I posted this on April 27, 2003:
| "Anatopism" is given in some dictionaries. The OED1 lists it
| as rare.
"David" writes:
Not having looked it up in the Oxford, I had considered this by
analogy with anachronism, of course, but as the "ana" element in
anachronism means "back(ward)", I had dismissed it. The "ana in
analogy means "according to" which also wouldn't do; and I failed
to find a meaning for "ana" which would be useful in this case.
The etymological fallacy strikes again. The relevant meaning is the
one derived by back formation from "anachronism".
|
Might be a back formation but it's nonsensical nevertheless; not as bad
as "ambucopter" which, thank Lucifer, seems to have given way to "air
ambulance" (which suggest limping along in Doc Martens to me but there
you go....)
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/colour/2g-0.htm
Green Magic
Left Nostril of Ishtar
Genitals in the Clay of Death |
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Michael West
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Counter |
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Einde O'Callaghan wrote:
| Quote: | David wrote:
In article <2knhq0F4bkc2U1@uni-berlin.de>, Einde O'Callaghan
einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote:
David wrote:
You think I'm expecting too much intelligence in the subscribers to
these newsgroups?
No - just a bit of courtesy - a quote of the relevant passage in the
book might be appropriate.
"Sonia laid the pen down on the counter, where it gleamed smugly in the
rain-darkened room. For a minute she stood looking at it. Then she
filled the powder container and switched on the machine." Bottom of the
antepenultimate page of cap. 5.
I would probably call this surface a "worktop" but I have come across
counters in combined kitchen-dining rooms where the kitchen part is
separated from the dining room by what I would call a counter on which
dishes can be placed as they are being passed from the cooker to teh
dining table or at which one can eqat breakfast perched on a stool.
|
Here in underpondia I think "bench" and "benchtop" would be
the most common terms, though "counter" and "countertop" are
gaining ground.
--
Michael West
Melbourne, Australia |
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