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Paul Burke
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:03 am
Post subject: Progressive present tense in history |
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Sorry if this is an FAQ, I don't drop in here often. I am trying to find
out when the progressive present (as in "I am writing") first entered
English, when it became the prevalent form of the present tense for most
purposes, and how it compares with usage in other European languages
(and if anyone has any special knowledge, non- European).
Paul Burke
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John of Aix
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:36 am
Post subject: Re: Progressive present tense in history |
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Paul Burke wrote:
| Quote: | Sorry if this is an FAQ, I don't drop in here often. I am trying to
find out when the progressive present (as in "I am writing") first
entered English, when it became the prevalent form of the present
tense for most purposes, and how it compares with usage in other
European languages (and if anyone has any special knowledge, non-
European).
|
As to the last question, as far as I know it is unique to English in
European languages. As to the former question, it's a very interesting
one to which I cannot give an answer but await them with interest,
for it is indeed a rather peculiar thing. |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:28 am
Post subject: Re: Progressive present tense in history |
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John of Aix wrote:
| Quote: | Paul Burke wrote:
Sorry if this is an FAQ, I don't drop in here often. I am trying to
find out when the progressive present (as in "I am writing") first
entered English, when it became the prevalent form of the present
tense for most purposes, and how it compares with usage in other
European languages (and if anyone has any special knowledge, non-
European).
As to the last question, as far as I know it is unique to English in
European languages. As to the former question, it's a very interesting
one to which I cannot give an answer but await them with interest,
for it is indeed a rather peculiar thing.
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Do you mean the 'periphrastic present' or 'periphrastic with gerund'? If
so, it exists in Spanish and Italian, but not French.
--
John Briggs
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Giles Todd
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:12 am
Post subject: Re: Progressive present tense in history |
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On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 23:36:28 +0100, "John of Aix"
<j.murphy@libertysurf.fr> wrote:
| Quote: | Paul Burke wrote:
Sorry if this is an FAQ, I don't drop in here often. I am trying to
find out when the progressive present (as in "I am writing") first
entered English, when it became the prevalent form of the present
tense for most purposes, and how it compares with usage in other
European languages (and if anyone has any special knowledge, non-
European).
As to the last question, as far as I know it is unique to English in
European languages.
|
Ik ben aan het schrijven -- Dutch
Ik zit te schrijven -- Dutch
Estoy escribiendo -- Spanish
All three are direct translations of the English phrase 'I am
writing'. The productive rules giving rise to these idioms are in
everyday use in both Dutch and Spanish. For example, see:
http://tinyurl.com/543q5 (photo taken on Queen's Day in Amsterdam last
year).
Giles. |
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Paul Burke
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Progressive present tense in history |
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Giles Todd wrote:
| Quote: |
Ik ben aan het schrijven -- Dutch
Ik zit te schrijven -- Dutch
Estoy escribiendo -- Spanish
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Thanks. And I also know about the Welsh 'yn chwarae' construction, which
AFAIK is the ONLY verb construction they use.
| Quote: | All three are direct translations of the English phrase 'I am
writing'. The productive rules giving rise to these idioms are in
everyday use in both Dutch and Spanish.
|
Are they commonly as the ordinary present tense as in English? The
T-shirt illustrated wouldn't translate to English- 'ik zit te zuipen'
seems to be a pun on 'I'm toasting/ saluting' and 'I'm boozing'...
perhaps 'I'll drink to that', which makes it a future or perhaps a sort
of conditional.
Paul Burke |
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einde. ocallaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Progressive present tense in history |
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Paul Burke wrote:
| Quote: | Giles Todd wrote:
Ik ben aan het schrijven -- Dutch
Ik zit te schrijven -- Dutch
Estoy escribiendo -- Spanish
Thanks. And I also know about the Welsh 'yn chwarae' construction, which
AFAIK is the ONLY verb construction they use.
In Irish there is also a present continuous tense - "Tá sé ag ithe arán" |
= "He's eating bread" as distinct from "Itheann sé arán" = "He eats bread".
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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John of Aix
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:08 am
Post subject: Re: Progressive present tense in history |
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einde. ocallaghan" <"einde. ocallaghan wrote:
| Quote: | Paul Burke wrote:
Giles Todd wrote:
Ik ben aan het schrijven -- Dutch
Ik zit te schrijven -- Dutch
Estoy escribiendo -- Spanish
Thanks. And I also know about the Welsh 'yn chwarae' construction,
which AFAIK is the ONLY verb construction they use.
In Irish there is also a present continuous tense - "Tá sé ag ithe
arán" = "He's eating bread" as distinct from "Itheann sé arán" = "He
eats bread".
|
Well all that is interesting, your post, that of Giles and Paul too but
no one has told us yet when this started as the OP asked. Does anyone
have any idea about this? Of course it may have existed in Latin but
from the (very) little I remember I don't think it did, so come on you
erudites, give us an answer or I won't be able to sleeep tonight. |
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Giles Todd
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:08 am
Post subject: Re: Progressive present tense in history |
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On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 09:02:04 +0000, Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | Are they commonly as the ordinary present tense as in English?
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Yes.
| Quote: | The
T-shirt illustrated wouldn't translate to English- 'ik zit te zuipen'
seems to be a pun on 'I'm toasting/ saluting' and 'I'm boozing'...
|
The latter. No pun involved. The 'dikke Van Dale' (Dutch equivalent
of the OED) defines 'zuipen' as various forms of drinking heavily or
consuming too much liquid (cf. a car with a big engine). It is
apparently etymologically related to the verb 'slurpen', which might
ring a few bells with English monoglots.
| Quote: | perhaps 'I'll drink to that', which makes it a future or perhaps a sort
of conditional.
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No, that would be 'proost' or some such. There is no sense of
toasting in 'zuipen'. Just overindulgence. 'Ik zit te zuipen' is a
progressive or periphrastic present, just like the one in English.
Giles |
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einde. ocallaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:03 am
Post subject: Re: Progressive present tense in history |
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John of Aix wrote:
| Quote: | einde. ocallaghan" <"einde. ocallaghan wrote:
Paul Burke wrote:
Giles Todd wrote:
Ik ben aan het schrijven -- Dutch
Ik zit te schrijven -- Dutch
Estoy escribiendo -- Spanish
Thanks. And I also know about the Welsh 'yn chwarae' construction,
which AFAIK is the ONLY verb construction they use.
In Irish there is also a present continuous tense - "Tá sé ag ithe
arán" = "He's eating bread" as distinct from "Itheann sé arán" = "He
eats bread".
Well all that is interesting, your post, that of Giles and Paul too but
no one has told us yet when this started as the OP asked. Does anyone
have any idea about this? Of course it may have existed in Latin but
from the (very) little I remember I don't think it did, so come on you
erudites, give us an answer or I won't be able to sleeep tonight.
|
Sorry, I can't help you - but one more titbit: while searching for works
on teh history of progressive (or continuosu) tenses I came across a
reference (in Russian, unfortunately) to an article about the use of the
present progressive in the Kazakh language. So, obviously, present
progressive tenses exist in some other languages, including
non-Indo-European ones.
I hpe you can sleep well, despite our failure.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:14 am
Post subject: Re: Progressive present tense in history |
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On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 23:28:15 GMT, John Briggs wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | As to the last question, as far as I know it is unique to English in
European languages. As to the former question, it's a very interesting
one to which I cannot give an answer but await them with interest,
for it is indeed a rather peculiar thing.
Do you mean the 'periphrastic present' or 'periphrastic with gerund'? If
so, it exists in Spanish and Italian, but not French.
|
"Je suis en train de..."?
It exists in Swedish, and I would think Norwegian and Danish, too.
Bye, FB
--
L'importante č che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri) |
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Paul Burke
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Progressive present tense in history |
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FB wrote:
| Quote: | Do you mean the 'periphrastic present' or 'periphrastic with gerund'? If
so, it exists in Spanish and Italian, but not French.
"Je suis en train de..."?
It exists in Swedish, and I would think Norwegian and Danish, too.
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No, I know about these round-the-houses ways of indicating ongoing
action. We even have them in English, especially of the Synge dialect
sort: "He is over beyant in Dingle an' he at the drinkin'" sort of
Paddywhackery.
Where the original question was starting from:
In the three main languages historically sharing the British Isles (I'm
counting the Gaelic dialects as one, and not counting Latin or French),
two seem to have had this progressive 'I am doing' construction as the
main present tense form. English adopted it later, though I don't know
when it arrived in writing, or if there was pedantic resistance to it.
It seems to be uncommonly used, as a special effect only, in most other
European languages.
Some time ago, on the Britarch list, there was a discussion concerning
the apparent poverty of words in English from the ancient British
language (palaeo-Welsh), and this was used as an argument for large
scale replacement of the native population.
It occurred to me at the time that the structure of the progressive
present tense could be an adoption from one of the Celtic languages,
preserved by the ex-Celtic Anglo Saxon peasants, and ignored by the
(aristocratic and conservative) AS literary language. The destruction of
the literary elite by the Norman conquest allowed many (perhaps demotic)
features to come through into writing- notably the collapse of gender,
case inflexion, concordance etc.
But for the progressive present to be part of the package (how's that
for AS alliteration?) timing is all. I can't find any examples of it in
the few middle-English sources available to me (Gawain, Piers Plowman,
riddles, Sir Orfeo, one or two more) but neither can I find when it DID
come in. I sometimes suspect that the 'special' nature of writing prior
to the invention of printing inhibited the use of forms thought to be
ungrammatical- but that's not evidence.
So the question is: did this usage spring up spontaneously, was it
adopted from another (higher status?) European language, was it adopted
from (definitely low-status) Irish or Welsh, or did it rise from the
underground of English dialect, the Brythonic language showing through
the flourishing growth of English like a crop mark in a field?
Paul Burke |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Progressive present tense in history |
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On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 22:08:24 +0100, "John of Aix"
<j.murphy@libertysurf.fr> wrote:
| Quote: | einde. ocallaghan" <"einde. ocallaghan wrote:
Paul Burke wrote:
Giles Todd wrote:
Ik ben aan het schrijven -- Dutch
Ik zit te schrijven -- Dutch
Estoy escribiendo -- Spanish
Thanks. And I also know about the Welsh 'yn chwarae' construction,
which AFAIK is the ONLY verb construction they use.
In Irish there is also a present continuous tense - "Tá sé ag ithe
arán" = "He's eating bread" as distinct from "Itheann sé arán" = "He
eats bread".
Well all that is interesting, your post, that of Giles and Paul too but
no one has told us yet when this started as the OP asked. Does anyone
have any idea about this? Of course it may have existed in Latin but
from the (very) little I remember I don't think it did, so come on you
erudites, give us an answer or I won't be able to sleeep tonight.
|
OTTOMH I'd guess that it's a natural development in a language in
which verbs have participles (i.e a standard adjectival form). "The
running man" seems as close to "the man is running" (which we treat as
a tense of the verb) as "the big man" is to "the man is big". Perhaps
the question should be why some languages which have participles
_don't_ developed this form?
--
Phil C. |
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John of Aix
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:50 am
Post subject: Re: Progressive present tense in history |
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einde. ocallaghan" <"einde. ocallaghan wrote:
| Quote: | John of Aix wrote:
Well all that is interesting, your post, that of Giles and Paul too
but no one has told us yet when this started as the OP asked. Does
anyone have any idea about this? Of course it may have existed in
Latin but from the (very) little I remember I don't think it did, so
come on you erudites, give us an answer or I won't be able to sleeep
tonight.
Sorry, I can't help you - but one more titbit: while searching for
works on teh history of progressive (or continuosu) tenses I came
across a reference (in Russian, unfortunately) to an article about
the use of the present progressive in the Kazakh language. So,
obviously, present progressive tenses exist in some other languages,
including non-Indo-European ones.
|
It is as probably as old as the hills then and a natural thing as Phil
says above.
| Quote: |
I hpe you can sleep well, despite our failure.
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I did my very best but it was fitful, very fitful. |
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John of Aix
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:56 am
Post subject: Re: Progressive present tense in history |
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Phil C. wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 22:08:24 +0100, "John of Aix"
j.murphy@libertysurf.fr> wrote:
Well all that is interesting, your post, that of Giles and Paul too
but no one has told us yet when this started as the OP asked. Does
anyone have any idea about this? Of course it may have existed in
Latin but from the (very) little I remember I don't think it did, so
come on you erudites, give us an answer or I won't be able to sleeep
tonight.
OTTOMH I'd guess that it's a natural development in a language in
which verbs have participles (i.e a standard adjectival form). "The
running man" seems as close to "the man is running" (which we treat as
a tense of the verb) as "the big man" is to "the man is big". Perhaps
the question should be why some languages which have participles
_don't_ developed this form?
|
Yes I like the 'running man' example, that seems to make good sense, and
as you say, it is odd that some languages don't use it. I must say I
regret its absence in French for it is quite commonly used in a
paraphrased way, 'je suis en train de (verb)" for instance, which is not
very pretty. |
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John of Aix
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:05 am
Post subject: Re: Progressive present tense in history |
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Paul Burke wrote:
| Quote: | Where the original question was starting from:
So the question is: did this usage spring up spontaneously, was it
adopted from another (higher status?) European language, was it
adopted from (definitely low-status) Irish or Welsh, or did it rise
from the underground of English dialect, the Brythonic language
showing through the flourishing growth of English like a crop mark in
a field?
|
An interesting and thoughtful post Paul, thanks. Nice how these simple
questions can make one scratch one's head. As I read what you wrote the
idea that this was a remainder of the 'low-level' languages seemed the
more likely one. Are there progressive forms in these languages, or
traces of them?
Of course it could just have been England being Perfidious Albion again
and that the English decided to get up the nose of the rest of the
continent by doing things differently, as is their wont. |
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