| Author |
Message |
T. Z.
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:59 pm
Post subject: "If you are a tall man, like I am, ..." -- facially nonsensi |
|
|
A while ago, I found myself uttering to someone
the following sentence, and feeling a little confused
while saying it.
"If you are a tall man, like I am, ..."
(you find yourself searching for clothes that fit.)
(I struggle to find clothes that fit.)
(it's hard to find clothes off the rack.)
____(I said this to a woman!)____
(You'd understand my confusion if you actually say it
to someone who's not a tall man.)
_____________________________
Are there similar utterances in other European
languages?
German, French, Spanish, etc.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Peter T. Daniels
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:59 am
Post subject: Re: "If you are a tall man, like I am, ..." -- facially nons |
|
|
T. Z. wrote:
| Quote: |
A while ago, I found myself uttering to someone
the following sentence, and feeling a little confused
while saying it.
"If you are a tall man, like I am, ..."
(you find yourself searching for clothes that fit.)
(I struggle to find clothes that fit.)
(it's hard to find clothes off the rack.)
____(I said this to a woman!)____
(You'd understand my confusion if you actually say it
to someone who's not a tall man.)
_____________________________
Are there similar utterances in other European
languages?
German, French, Spanish, etc.
|
The English for that would be "If you're a tall man like me, ..."
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Atkinson
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:10 am
Post subject: Re: "If you are a tall man, like I am, ..." -- facially nons |
|
|
"T. Z." <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote ...
| Quote: | A while ago, I found myself uttering to someone
the following sentence, and feeling a little confused
while saying it.
"If you are a tall man, like I am, ..."
(you find yourself searching for clothes that fit.)
(I struggle to find clothes that fit.)
(it's hard to find clothes off the rack.)
____(I said this to a woman!)____
|
I think that in this situation, where what's stated in the "if" clause is
hypothetical, unlikely, or (as here) impossible, many speakers would use the
subjunctive and/or the conditional:
"If you were a tall man, like I am, you would find/would struggle/it would
be hard..."
In many varieties of English, the subjunctive is pretty well moribund, but
there's no doubt that in the standard language you can't use what you said
in the situation you describe.
| Quote: | Are there similar utterances in other European
languages?
German, French, Spanish, etc.
|
Yes. In most of them the subjunctive is still very much alive, more so than
in English. They also have conditional forms similar to English.
John.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter T. Daniels
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:25 am
Post subject: Re: "If you are a tall man, like I am, ..." -- facially nons |
|
|
John Atkinson wrote:
| Quote: |
"T. Z." <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote ...
A while ago, I found myself uttering to someone
the following sentence, and feeling a little confused
while saying it.
"If you are a tall man, like I am, ..."
(you find yourself searching for clothes that fit.)
(I struggle to find clothes that fit.)
(it's hard to find clothes off the rack.)
____(I said this to a woman!)____
I think that in this situation, where what's stated in the "if" clause is
hypothetical, unlikely, or (as here) impossible, many speakers would use the
subjunctive and/or the conditional:
"If you were a tall man, like I am, you would find/would struggle/it would
be hard..."
|
But that doesn't say the same thing at all. In your version, the speaker
is asking the hearer to put themself into his place; in the original,
the speaker is reflecting wryly on the drawbacks of being tall (never
mind all the documented advantages of being shortness-challenged).
| Quote: | In many varieties of English, the subjunctive is pretty well moribund, but
there's no doubt that in the standard language you can't use what you said
in the situation you describe.
Are there similar utterances in other European
languages?
German, French, Spanish, etc.
Yes. In most of them the subjunctive is still very much alive, more so than
in English. They also have conditional forms similar to English.
-- |
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Einde O'Callaghan
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:30 am
Post subject: Re: "If you are a tall man, like I am, ..." -- facially nons |
|
|
John Atkinson wrote:
| Quote: | "T. Z." <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote ...
A while ago, I found myself uttering to someone
the following sentence, and feeling a little confused
while saying it.
"If you are a tall man, like I am, ..."
(you find yourself searching for clothes that fit.)
(I struggle to find clothes that fit.)
(it's hard to find clothes off the rack.)
____(I said this to a woman!)____
I think that in this situation, where what's stated in the "if" clause is
hypothetical, unlikely, or (as here) impossible, many speakers would use the
subjunctive and/or the conditional:
"If you were a tall man, like I am, you would find/would struggle/it would
be hard..."
In many varieties of English, the subjunctive is pretty well moribund, but
there's no doubt that in the standard language you can't use what you said
in the situation you describe.
This is utter rubbish. Even in the situation described the sentence used |
by the OP is quite possible and is also grammatically correct. This
usage of "you" is not areferring to the person being spoken to, but is
known as the universal "you" and corresponds to the use of "one" in more
formal English.
This structure is also used in informal German (using "du2 instead of
teh impersonal "man"), particularly by young Germans - but I don't know
if this is because of the influence of English or a more deep-seated
Germanic structure.
Einde O'Callaghan |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adrian Bailey
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:41 am
Post subject: Re: "If you are a tall man, like I am, ..." -- facially nons |
|
|
"T. Z." <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message
news:20040611185924.97972.qmail@web52108.mail.yahoo.com...
| Quote: | A while ago, I found myself uttering to someone
the following sentence, and feeling a little confused
while saying it.
"If you are a tall man, like I am, ..."
(you find yourself searching for clothes that fit.)
(I struggle to find clothes that fit.)
(it's hard to find clothes off the rack.)
____(I said this to a woman!)____
(You'd understand my confusion if you actually say it
to someone who's not a tall man.)
|
It's colloquial for "If one is a tall man, like I am, ..." We often use
"you", rather than the stuffy "one", and it rarely leads to any confusion.
It is bad style, of course, to use "one" when one means "I" - an upper-class
shibboleth.
Adrian |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Atkinson
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:23 pm
Post subject: Re: "If you are a tall man, like I am, ..." -- facially nons |
|
|
"Einde O'Callaghan" <einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote...
| Quote: | John Atkinson wrote:
"T. Z." <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote ...
A while ago, I found myself uttering to someone
the following sentence, and feeling a little confused
while saying it.
"If you are a tall man, like I am, ..."
(you find yourself searching for clothes that fit.)
(I struggle to find clothes that fit.)
(it's hard to find clothes off the rack.)
____(I said this to a woman!)____
I think that in this situation, where what's stated in the "if" clause
is
hypothetical, unlikely, or (as here) impossible, many speakers would use
the
subjunctive and/or the conditional:
"If you were a tall man, like I am, you would find/would struggle/it
would
be hard..."
In many varieties of English, the subjunctive is pretty well moribund,
but
there's no doubt that in the standard language you can't use what you
said
in the situation you describe.
This is utter rubbish. Even in the situation described the sentence used
by the OP is quite possible and is also grammatically correct. This
usage of "you" is not areferring to the person being spoken to, but is
known as the universal "you" and corresponds to the use of "one" in more
formal English.
|
Point taken. I do of course frequently use this "you". Still, in my
idiolect at any rate, I find the original sentence very hard to accept,
presumably because of the two possible meanings of "you", one of which makes
no sense in the context.
I'd have found it a wee bit more acceptable, I think, if he'd said "If
you're a tall man like me..." rather than "If you are a tall man, as I
am..." -- perhaps because then there isn't a clash of formalness involved in
taking "you" as the "universal you" (Is that what Peter was getting at?)
John. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter T. Daniels
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:13 pm
Post subject: Re: "If you are a tall man, like I am, ..." -- facially nons |
|
|
John Atkinson wrote:
| Quote: |
"Einde O'Callaghan" <einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote...
John Atkinson wrote:
"T. Z." <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote ...
A while ago, I found myself uttering to someone
the following sentence, and feeling a little confused
while saying it.
"If you are a tall man, like I am, ..."
(you find yourself searching for clothes that fit.)
(I struggle to find clothes that fit.)
(it's hard to find clothes off the rack.)
____(I said this to a woman!)____
I think that in this situation, where what's stated in the "if" clause is
hypothetical, unlikely, or (as here) impossible, many speakers would use the
subjunctive and/or the conditional:
"If you were a tall man, like I am, you would find/would struggle/it would
be hard..."
In many varieties of English, the subjunctive is pretty well moribund, but
there's no doubt that in the standard language you can't use what you said
in the situation you describe.
This is utter rubbish. Even in the situation described the sentence used
by the OP is quite possible and is also grammatically correct. This
usage of "you" is not areferring to the person being spoken to, but is
known as the universal "you" and corresponds to the use of "one" in more
formal English.
Point taken. I do of course frequently use this "you". Still, in my
idiolect at any rate, I find the original sentence very hard to accept,
presumably because of the two possible meanings of "you", one of which makes
no sense in the context.
I'd have found it a wee bit more acceptable, I think, if he'd said "If
you're a tall man like me..." rather than "If you are a tall man, as I
am..." -- perhaps because then there isn't a clash of formalness involved in
taking "you" as the "universal you" (Is that what Peter was getting at?)
|
Not really; I make it grammatical rather than pragmatic. But the
pragmatics does get involved. Inappropriate as well as ungrammatical!
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Herb Martin
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:51 pm
Post subject: Re: "If you are a tall man, like I am, ..." -- facially nons |
|
|
| Quote: | Point taken. I do of course frequently use this "you". Still, in my
idiolect at any rate, I find the original sentence very hard to accept,
presumably because of the two possible meanings of "you", one of which
makes
no sense in the context.
|
The formal English -- as pointed out -- is, "If one is a tall man..."
but when speaking to a woman informally just leave out "man",
"If you are tall, as I am, then...." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Briggs
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 1:12 am
Post subject: Re: "If you are a tall man, like I am, ..." -- facially nons |
|
|
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
| Quote: | T. Z. wrote:
A while ago, I found myself uttering to someone
the following sentence, and feeling a little confused
while saying it.
"If you are a tall man, like I am, ..."
(you find yourself searching for clothes that fit.)
(I struggle to find clothes that fit.)
(it's hard to find clothes off the rack.)
____(I said this to a woman!)____
(You'd understand my confusion if you actually say it
to someone who's not a tall man.)
_____________________________
Are there similar utterances in other European
languages?
German, French, Spanish, etc.
The English for that would be "If you're a tall man like me, ..."
|
Or "If you are a tall man, as I am, ..."
--
John Briggs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter T. Daniels
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:38 am
Post subject: Re: "If you are a tall man, like I am, ..." -- facially nons |
|
|
John Briggs wrote:
| Quote: |
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
T. Z. wrote:
A while ago, I found myself uttering to someone
the following sentence, and feeling a little confused
while saying it.
"If you are a tall man, like I am, ..."
(you find yourself searching for clothes that fit.)
(I struggle to find clothes that fit.)
(it's hard to find clothes off the rack.)
____(I said this to a woman!)____
(You'd understand my confusion if you actually say it
to someone who's not a tall man.)
_____________________________
Are there similar utterances in other European
languages?
German, French, Spanish, etc.
The English for that would be "If you're a tall man like me, ..."
Or "If you are a tall man, as I am, ..."
|
No. That's impossibly stilted and doesn't communicate the same thing at
all.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter T. Daniels
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:39 am
Post subject: Re: "If you are a tall man, like I am, ..." -- facially nons |
|
|
Herb Martin wrote:
| Quote: |
Point taken. I do of course frequently use this "you". Still, in my
idiolect at any rate, I find the original sentence very hard to accept,
presumably because of the two possible meanings of "you", one of which
makes
no sense in the context.
The formal English -- as pointed out -- is, "If one is a tall man..."
but when speaking to a woman informally just leave out "man",
"If you are tall, as I am, then...."
|
That's absurd in face-to-face conversation.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brian M. Scott
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:04 am
Post subject: Re: "If you are a tall man, like I am, ..." -- facially nons |
|
|
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 09:23:22 GMT "John Atkinson"
<johnacko@bigpond.com> wrote in
<news:eYzyc.8299$sj4.3886@news-server.bigpond.net.au> in
uk.culture.language.english,sci.lang,alt.usage.english:
| Quote: | "Einde O'Callaghan" <einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de> wrote...
John Atkinson wrote:
"T. Z." <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote ...
A while ago, I found myself uttering to someone
the following sentence, and feeling a little confused
while saying it.
"If you are a tall man, like I am, ..."
(you find yourself searching for clothes that fit.)
(I struggle to find clothes that fit.)
(it's hard to find clothes off the rack.)
____(I said this to a woman!)____
I think that in this situation, where what's stated in the "if" clause
is
hypothetical, unlikely, or (as here) impossible, many speakers would use
the
subjunctive and/or the conditional:
"If you were a tall man, like I am, you would find/would struggle/it
would be hard..."
In many varieties of English, the subjunctive is pretty well moribund,
but
there's no doubt that in the standard language you can't use what you
said
in the situation you describe.
This is utter rubbish. Even in the situation described the sentence used
by the OP is quite possible and is also grammatically correct. This
usage of "you" is not areferring to the person being spoken to, but is
known as the universal "you" and corresponds to the use of "one" in more
formal English.
Point taken. I do of course frequently use this "you". Still, in my
idiolect at any rate, I find the original sentence very hard to accept,
presumably because of the two possible meanings of "you", one of which makes
no sense in the context.
I'd have found it a wee bit more acceptable, I think, if he'd said "If
you're a tall man like me..." rather than "If you are a tall man, as I
am..." -- perhaps because then there isn't a clash of formalness involved in
taking "you" as the "universal you" (Is that what Peter was getting at?)
|
I'd probably have said 'Someone as tall as I has trouble
finding clothes that fit' (except that at 5' 3.5" (1.61 m)
I'd be saying 'short', not 'tall').
Brian |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Atkinson
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:59 am
Post subject: Re: "If you are a tall man, like I am, ..." -- facially nons |
|
|
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40CBCC60.D81@worldnet.att.net...
| Quote: | Herb Martin wrote:
The formal English -- as pointed out -- is, "If one is a tall man..."
but when speaking to a woman informally just leave out "man",
"If you are tall, as I am, then...."
That's absurd in face-to-face conversation.
|
Not to speak of, that the speaker was only talking about *men's* clothing.
Your version implies that a woman would also find it hard to obtain clothing
if she was tall -- possibly true, but not what he wanted to say.
John. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Briggs
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:02 pm
Post subject: Re: "If you are a tall man, like I am, ..." -- facially nons |
|
|
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
| Quote: | John Briggs wrote:
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
T. Z. wrote:
A while ago, I found myself uttering to someone
the following sentence, and feeling a little confused
while saying it.
"If you are a tall man, like I am, ..."
(you find yourself searching for clothes that fit.)
(I struggle to find clothes that fit.)
(it's hard to find clothes off the rack.)
____(I said this to a woman!)____
(You'd understand my confusion if you actually say it
to someone who's not a tall man.)
_____________________________
Are there similar utterances in other European
languages?
German, French, Spanish, etc.
The English for that would be "If you're a tall man like me, ..."
Or "If you are a tall man, as I am, ..."
No. That's impossibly stilted and doesn't communicate the same thing at
all.
|
The same thing as what? I thought we were trying to turn the original
utterance ("If you are a tall man, like I am, ...") into English - which I
have done with minimal alteration.
--
John Briggs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in