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David Picton
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:52 pm
Post subject: Past participle of stride - strode or stridden? |
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According to most dictionaries, the past participle of stride is
definitely stridden: I strode, I had stridden. An exception is the
OED which also lists strode as a 'colloquial' past participle. What
interests me is the fact that the colloquial form now seems to be
taking over.
I did a web search for "has|have|had strode" vs "has|have|had
stridden". For a worldwide search there were 799 hits for strode vs.
516 for stridden. The dominance of 'strode' is even greater in the
UK: 174 hits for strode, only 28 for stridden!
The question which I want to ask is: which form sounds right to your
'ear'? Do you think that dictionaries should be revised to reflect
the actual status quo, or should they continue to list only 'stridden'
on the basis of logical consistency (ride/rode/ridden,
drive/drove/driven etc.)
(What I expect to happen is that the OED compilers will look for
evidence of use, then quietly drop the 'colloquial' tag on strode as
the past participle. Then smaller dictionaries will follow suit over
time.)
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Adrian Bailey
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Past participle of stride - strode or stridden? |
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"David Picton" <djpicton@bigmailbox.net> wrote in message
news:2ad9e934.0406090852.72bc062@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | According to most dictionaries, the past participle of stride is
definitely stridden: I strode, I had stridden. An exception is the
OED which also lists strode as a 'colloquial' past participle. What
interests me is the fact that the colloquial form now seems to be
taking over.
I did a web search for "has|have|had strode" vs "has|have|had
stridden". For a worldwide search there were 799 hits for strode vs.
516 for stridden. The dominance of 'strode' is even greater in the
UK: 174 hits for strode, only 28 for stridden!
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A lot of the striding in Britain is done in areas where it's common to use
the preterite in place of the past participle for all verbs, ie. Scotland
and the far north of England.
| Quote: | The question which I want to ask is: which form sounds right to your
'ear'?
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It difficult to say with such a relatively rare verb. Both sound okay, I
think, though "stridden" makes me think of "striven".
Do you think that dictionaries should be revised to reflect
| Quote: | the actual status quo, or should they continue to list only 'stridden'
on the basis of logical consistency (ride/rode/ridden,
drive/drove/driven etc.)
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The dictionaries will change their entries, of course. It might take a
decade or two, though...
Adrian |
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rewboss
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:42 am
Post subject: Re: Past participle of stride - strode or stridden? |
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"David Picton" <djpicton@bigmailbox.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:2ad9e934.0406090852.72bc062@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | According to most dictionaries, the past participle of stride is
definitely stridden: I strode, I had stridden. An exception is the
OED which also lists strode as a 'colloquial' past participle. What
interests me is the fact that the colloquial form now seems to be
taking over.
I did a web search for "has|have|had strode" vs "has|have|had
stridden". For a worldwide search there were 799 hits for strode vs.
516 for stridden. The dominance of 'strode' is even greater in the
UK: 174 hits for strode, only 28 for stridden!
The question which I want to ask is: which form sounds right to your
'ear'? Do you think that dictionaries should be revised to reflect
the actual status quo, or should they continue to list only 'stridden'
on the basis of logical consistency (ride/rode/ridden,
drive/drove/driven etc.)
(What I expect to happen is that the OED compilers will look for
evidence of use, then quietly drop the 'colloquial' tag on strode as
the past participle. Then smaller dictionaries will follow suit over
time.)
|
I'm thinking that the perfect aspect of "stride" isn't often used -- not
that it *can't* be used, but that there is seldom any cause for it.
The perfect aspect usually implies some completed action the *result* of
which is still present and can be demonstrated in some way. For example, if
you say "John has come to see you," you mean that John is still there,
waiting for you to greet him. If you say, "John came to see you," you don't
imply that at all, and in all likelihood John has given up waiting for you
and gone back home.
Although it is possible to say, "John has stridden all this way to see you,"
when would you normally need to? It would imply, in addition to the fact
that John is still there, that he is also exhausted from all that striding.
He probably came close to a hamstring injury.
Another possible reason to use the present perfect would be to imply that
someone has acquired knowledge or experience: "He has been to London"
implies that he knows the city, or knows how to get there, or at least can
tell you a bit about the place from his own experience. Again, you could
possibly use "stridden" in that sense -- "He has stridden before, which is
why he's reluctant to try again" -- but it's not going to form part of your
daily routine.
Not that you'd *never* use it -- for example, you might be sitting in a car
in a safari park and talking on a mobile phone to a friend: "I can see some
rhinos... they've stridden across the road behind me...". The past perfect
might be a little more common: "She had just stridden over to the Jones's
house when she heard the gunshot."
So... what's the point of this ramble?
Two things: First, since few people ever have cause to use "stride" in the
perfect aspect, few people know that the past participle is "stridden" (it
follows the same pattern as "ride" -- "rode" -- "have ridden"). Your
Googling revealed this: there must be millions of English languages websites
out there, but only a few hundred have "stride" in the perfect, and most got
it wrong.
Second, since you're seldom going to have to use it yourself (I presume you
must be having to use it now, since you ask, but you may never need to
again), it's probably not worth panicking about.
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Arfur Million
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:24 am
Post subject: Re: Past participle of stride - strode or stridden? |
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"Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7LHxc.9$j7.7@pathologist.blueyonder.net...
<snip>
| Quote: | Do you think that dictionaries should be revised to reflect
the actual status quo, or should they continue to list only 'stridden'
on the basis of logical consistency (ride/rode/ridden,
drive/drove/driven etc.)
The dictionaries will change their entries, of course. It might take a
decade or two, though...
Adrian
|
NewSOED gives "strode" as a colloquial alternative to "stridden".
Arfur |
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:50 am
Post subject: Re: Past participle of stride - strode or stridden? |
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Arfur Million wrote:
| Quote: |
"Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7LHxc.9$j7.7@pathologist.blueyonder.net...
snip
Do you think that dictionaries should be revised to reflect
the actual status quo, or should they continue to list only 'stridden'
on the basis of logical consistency (ride/rode/ridden,
drive/drove/driven etc.)
The dictionaries will change their entries, of course. It might take a
decade or two, though...
NewSOED gives "strode" as a colloquial alternative to "stridden".
|
I checked three mainstream online American dictionaries (M-W, AHD4,
Encarta) and none listed "strode" as an alternative to "stridden." I
have no recollection of ever using a past participle for "stride."
I use "stride" mostly as a noun, and the verb in the simple present
and past.
Given the way the language develops, I'd wager that "strode" will
break into the American dictionaries as past participle in another
few decades.
--
Bob Lieblich
Striding fourth (formerly third, but fading) |
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David Picton
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Past participle of stride - strode or stridden? |
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"rewboss" <rewboss@rewboss.com> wrote in message news:<2ip8bcFp81lgU1@uni-berlin.de>...
| Quote: | "David Picton" <djpicton@bigmailbox.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:2ad9e934.0406090852.72bc062@posting.google.com...
According to most dictionaries, the past participle of stride is
definitely stridden: I strode, I had stridden. An exception is the
OED which also lists strode as a 'colloquial' past participle. What
interests me is the fact that the colloquial form now seems to be
taking over.
|
[snip]
| Quote: | I'm thinking that the perfect aspect of "stride" isn't often used -- not
that it *can't* be used, but that there is seldom any cause for it.
|
But sometimes there is. I saw a Usenet post in which J.K. Rowling had
a slap on the wrist for:
Dumbledore had strode alone into the Forest to rescue her from the
centaurs ...
That's what I would have written if I hadn't consulted the dictionary!
I can imagine needing to use the correct form in an academic paper -
something like 'the range through which the random number generator
has stridden'. |
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Professor Redwine
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Past participle of stride - strode or stridden? |
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On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 02:51:58 -0700, spake David Picton thus:
| Quote: | But sometimes there is. I saw a Usenet post in which J.K. Rowling had
a slap on the wrist for:
Dumbledore had strode alone into the Forest to rescue her from the
centaurs ...
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I think it's a bit harsh to slap JKR anywhere for that. Authors,
particularly when in the flow of narrative, often make such errors. Less
obvious errors, such as this, are then very hard to find when reading
one's own work. The editor(s) who let this pass, however, deserve more
than just a slap on the wrist. As both a writer and an editor I consider
it to be understandable writing but shoddy editing.
--
Redwine
Hamburg
(previously: Berlin, Northants, Derbs, Staffs, NSW, Tasmania,
Melbourne, rural Victoria, in that and many other orders) |
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Daniel James
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Past participle of stride - strode or stridden? |
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In article news:<2ad9e934.0406090852.72bc062@posting.google.com>,
David Picton wrote:
| Quote: | According to most dictionaries, the past participle of stride
is definitely stridden: I strode, I had stridden. An exception
is the OED which also lists strode as a 'colloquial' past
participle.
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The question is complicated by the existence of "strided" - which
my dictionary doesn't even mention. "Strided" is properly a past
tense - a weak alternative to "strode" - but is also (mis)used as a
past participle.
| Quote: | (What I expect to happen is that the OED compilers will look
for evidence of use, then quietly drop the 'colloquial' tag
on strode as the past participle. ... )
|
That is exactly what is likely to happen IF (and, one hopes, only
if) they find sufficient evidence. Let's hope they don't.
Cheers,
Daniel. |
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Daniel James
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Past participle of stride - strode or stridden? |
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In article news:<2ip8bcFp81lgU1@uni-berlin.de>, Rewboss wrote:
| Quote: | I'm thinking that the perfect aspect of "stride" isn't often
used -- not that it *can't* be used, but that there is seldom
any cause for it.
|
I've stridden these moors by night and day for nigh on forty years,
and there isn't a bog or a tussock that I don't know like the back
of my hand.
[For some reason my fingers want to type that in a strong mummerset
accent: "I've strode these moor for nigh-on forty year, and there
bain't a bog nor tussock as I ..." you get the idea.]
Of course, past participles can be and are also used adjectivally -
the West Highland Way is a much stridden track, for example. I
don't see "strode" being used there.
Cheers,
Daniel. |
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Steve Hayes
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Past participle of stride - strode or stridden? |
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On 9 Jun 2004 09:52:36 -0700, djpicton@bigmailbox.net (David Picton) wrote:
| Quote: | According to most dictionaries, the past participle of stride is
definitely stridden: I strode, I had stridden. An exception is the
OED which also lists strode as a 'colloquial' past participle. What
interests me is the fact that the colloquial form now seems to be
taking over.
|
I'd have to look up "past tense" and "past participle" in a dictionary, for
which I need to wait for the sun to come up, and by then the cheap phone rate
will be over at this time of year.
But something similar has struck me - the displacement of "proved" by
"proven".
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
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Ayaz Ahmed Khan
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Past participle of stride - strode or stridden? |
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"Robert Lieblich" typed:
| Quote: | Arfur Million wrote:
"Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7LHxc.9$j7.7@pathologist.blueyonder.net...
snip
Do you think that dictionaries should be revised to reflect
the actual status quo, or should they continue to list only
'stridden' on the basis of logical consistency
(ride/rode/ridden, drive/drove/driven etc.)
The dictionaries will change their entries, of course. It might
take a decade or two, though...
NewSOED gives "strode" as a colloquial alternative to "stridden".
I checked three mainstream online American dictionaries (M-W, AHD4,
Encarta) and none listed "strode" as an alternative to "stridden." I
have no recollection of ever using a past participle for "stride." I
use "stride" mostly as a noun, and the verb in the simple present
and past.
Given the way the language develops, I'd wager that "strode" will
break into the American dictionaries as past participle in another
few decades.
|
Strange. I checked my OALD against stride, and here is what it had to
say:
/stride/ verb, noun
- verb (pt strode) (not used in the perfect tenses) [V+adj/prep.]
I couldn't find "stridden" anywhere in OALD. I'm sure there's a good
enough reason why that note was put there in an "Advanced Learner's"
dictionary.
And, now, I see that rewboss has already dedicated a single post to
explaining it.
--
Ayaz Ahmed Khan
"The open-source business model is the one trend Microsoft can't
follow", says Edward Jung, co-founder of Intellectual Ventures
and a former senior software architect at Microsoft. |
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David Picton
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Past participle of stride - strode or stridden? |
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Daniel James <wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote in message news:<VA.00000714.0ebbaf16@nospam.aaisp.org>...
| Quote: | In article news:<2ip8bcFp81lgU1@uni-berlin.de>, Rewboss wrote:
I'm thinking that the perfect aspect of "stride" isn't often
used -- not that it *can't* be used, but that there is seldom
any cause for it.
I've stridden these moors by night and day for nigh on forty years,
and there isn't a bog or a tussock that I don't know like the back
of my hand.
Of course, past participles can be and are also used adjectivally -
the West Highland Way is a much stridden track, for example. I
don't see "strode" being used there.
|
I agree. There seems to be a general rule that past participles in -en (e.g.
stricken, drunken) are often retained for adjectival use, even when another
form has taken over as the regular past participle. |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:56 am
Post subject: Re: Past participle of stride - strode or stridden? |
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Steve Hayes <hayesmstw@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
But something similar has struck me - the displacement of "proved" by
"proven".
|
"Proven" has been around for a long time. In 1828, N. Webster said:
PROVEN, a word used by Scottish writers for proved.
Mastertexts shows "proven" used by Twain, London, A. Bronte, Conan
Doyle, Scott, and Stevenson. The last three were all born in Edinburgh.
--
Best - Donna Richoux |
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Robert Lieblich
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:20 am
Post subject: Re: Past participle of stride - strode or stridden? |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: |
Steve Hayes <hayesmstw@hotmail.com> wrote:
But something similar has struck me - the displacement of "proved" by
"proven".
"Proven" has been around for a long time. In 1828, N. Webster said:
PROVEN, a word used by Scottish writers for proved.
Mastertexts shows "proven" used by Twain, London, A. Bronte, Conan
Doyle, Scott, and Stevenson. The last three were all born in Edinburgh.
|
Yeah, but there's "proven" the participle and "proven" used as an
attributive adjective -- "proven liar."
Lawyers are constantly struggling with different uses of "proven" --
usually until they lose the struggle.
--
Bob Lieblich
Drinker of 100-proven Scotch |
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rewboss
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:37 am
Post subject: Re: Past participle of stride - strode or stridden? |
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"Robert Lieblich" <Robert.Lieblich@Verizon.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:40C8C29B.B9026940@Verizon.net...
| Quote: | Donna Richoux wrote:
Steve Hayes <hayesmstw@hotmail.com> wrote:
But something similar has struck me - the displacement of "proved" by
"proven".
"Proven" has been around for a long time. In 1828, N. Webster said:
PROVEN, a word used by Scottish writers for proved.
Mastertexts shows "proven" used by Twain, London, A. Bronte, Conan
Doyle, Scott, and Stevenson. The last three were all born in Edinburgh.
Yeah, but there's "proven" the participle and "proven" used as an
attributive adjective -- "proven liar."
Lawyers are constantly struggling with different uses of "proven" --
usually until they lose the struggle.
|
Under Scottish law, there is a verdict of "not proven". This is given when
there is not enough evidence for a "guilty" verdict, but the court is pretty
damn sure the defendant is guilty. No sentence is passed, but the verdict
remains as a blemish on one's character. |
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