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Eric Schwartz
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:29 am
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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"Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> writes:
| Quote: | Peter T. Daniels wrote:
(2) Named all his sons George. (That's the
relevant one.) (3) Markets an outdoor grilling device of some sort.
Promotes an indoor grilling device.
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There's at least a dozen variations on the theme, at least one of
which is an "Indoor/Outdoor Grill". But yeah, the basic model is an
indoor-only one.
-=Eric
--
Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million
typewriters, and Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare.
-- Blair Houghton.
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:33 am
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<e7ebd0lj0142bpaub7180tg6r2uo0cg9dd@4ax.com>...
[...]
| Quote: |
If you want him back, jerk his leash. We can do without his shrill
yapping.
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I dunno. Peter T. D. boosts my self-esteem, and I can always do with a
bit of that. Since he's always sniffing around, why don't we keep him
as a pet? Doesn't cost much to feed him, and we don't have to let him
in the house. Might probably scare off a few of the more intesticulate
juvenile burglars, too.
Mike. |
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:05 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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In article <20040621.2035.56737snz@dsl.co.uk>, Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
<bhk@dsl.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sunday, in article <y8mhliar.fsf@hpl.hp.com
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com "Evan Kirshenbaum" wrote:
If nobody actually *did* refer to you that way, then nobody was
misled. Without the braces, I certainly would have been, because
*in the US* middle names are not infrequently drawn from the
"surname" pool.
Aha! The "people" to whom I was referring in that "> ]" paragraph
above were non-British; it was only when my name "travelled
internationally" that I realized that I had a problem, and the {}
solution fell readily to hand (from \TeX).
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And provided a great talking point for the glassering chatters.
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/photo/0y04-0.htm
Melting Icicles
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John Atkinson
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:47 am
Post subject: Re: /e/ before /r/ |
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"Richard Sabey" <cryptic_fan@hotmail.com> wrote ...
| Quote: | "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote...
"Aaron J. Dinkin" <dinkin@babel.ling.upenn.edu> wrote:
[...]
Also, note that I was talking about _underlying_ representations, not
_phonemic_ representations, which is what the foregoing paragraph is
about. By "underlying" representations, I mean the highly abstract
representations that are the input to all the morphophonemic
processes,
the level at which "hymn" ends in an /n/ because it has to be there to
be
pronounced in "hymnal".
Which is a good example of why I don't really believe in
these underlying representations. If the noun <hymn> were
to be verbed ('to create a hymn'),
Which indeed it already has been (e.g. "to hymn someone's praises").
I'd bet that <hymning
would turn out to be ['hImIN], not ['hImnIN].
Other examples: damn, damnation; solemn, solemnity.
Hymnal> is a
fossilized derivative of <hymn>; insisting on an artificial
underlying phonemic representation of <hymn> in order to
make <hymnal> a synchronic derivative is a game not worth my
candles, I'm afraid.
I agree with Brian. An example which Aaron might consider
appropriate to his point is that of final "r" or "re" which,
in a non-rhotic accent, is generally *not* pronounced with
an [r], but *is*, if a vowel sound follows.
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Unfortunately, this doesn't work well either, since most non-rhotic speakers
pronounce "r" at the end of all morphemes ending in [E:, @, a:] if a vowel
sound follows, even when the morpheme isn't spelt with "-r" or "-re" -- the
so-called "intrusive 'r'" phenomenon.
As in Laura Norder.
J. |
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M. Ranjit Mathews
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 11:55 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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Ruud Harmsen <realemailseesite01@rudhar.com> wrote ...
| Quote: | "Aaron J. Dinkin" <dinkin@babel.ling.upenn.edu>: in sci.lang:
No. Having different vowels for "bat" and "bad" is a result of the
so-called short-a split, which is restricted to the region between New
York and Baltimore. "Mary" and "marry" are distinct in that region,
eastern New England, and as far as I know all of Rightpondia.
Where Rightpondia is with your head heading north, and including
South-Africa, Nigeria, Tanzania, Kenia, Pakistan, India, and
Hong-Kong, Australia, New-Zealand, I suppose. All those places where
they speak what to me is "normal" English (
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In Rightpondia*, "varied" has a retracted [&] [v&_ri:d]/[v&_rId]
that's audibly distinct from the [E] in "ferried" [fEri:d] and the
[a]/[&] in "carried" [kari:d]/[k&rId]. I fancy that the merger of the
vowels in Mary and marry resulted in a vowel similar to the [&_] in
Rightpondian "varied".
* In Indian English, it's more typically [ve:ri:d.] |
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Ruud Harmsen
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:52 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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26 Jun 2004 10:55:20 -0700: ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com (M. Ranjit
Mathews): in sci.lang:
| Quote: | In Rightpondia*, "varied" has a retracted [&] [v&_ri:d]/[v&_rId]
that's audibly distinct from the [E] in "ferried" [fEri:d] and the
[a]/[&] in "carried" [kari:d]/[k&rId].
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My dictionaries show that as: [vE@ri:d], [feri:d] and [k&ri:d].
Porbably means the same.
--
Ruud Harmsen <rha@rudhar.com> - http://rudhar.com |
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M. Ranjit Mathews
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:15 am
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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Ruud Harmsen wrote:
| Quote: | ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com (M. Ranjit Mathews): in sci.lang:
In Rightpondia*, "varied" has a retracted [&] [v&_ri:d]/[v&_rId]
that's audibly distinct from the [E] in "ferried" [fEri:d] and the
[a]/[&] in "carried" [kari:d]/[k&rId].
My dictionaries show that as: [vE@ri:d], [feri:d] and [k&ri:d].
Probably means the same.
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[vE@ri:d] is one of the pronunciations, but I've also heard it with a
monophthong in the triangle between [&:], [E:] and [V":], which is what I
called [&_:].
Surely you mean [fEri:d] rather than [feri:d]. |
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Ruud Harmsen
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:44 am
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:15:27 GMT: "M. Ranjit Mathews"
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com>: in sci.lang:
| Quote: | ... "ferried" ...
Surely you mean [fEri:d] rather than [feri:d].
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I don't. It's /e/, usually sounding like something in between [E] and
[e], but closer to [e]. /&/ usually follows suit, tending to [E].
Concise Oxford, Daniel Jones, Van Dale Dutch-English, Ten Bruggencate
English-Dutch, Nolst-Trenité, they all use /e/ for the phoneme in men,
set, ferried, merry etc.
--
Ruud Harmsen <rha@rudhar.com> - http://rudhar.com |
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M. Ranjit Mathews
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:41 am
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian Hamilton Kelly}) wrote:
On Thursday, in article <40D188AA.2343@worldnet.att.net
grammatim@worldnet.att.net "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
You did not, however, "explain" why you use a double barreled
un-hyphenated name, nor why you don't simply add a hyphen if the Kelly
(or Hamilton) hoi polloi are just too common for you.
Because "Hamilton Kelly" is my surname, and has been that of my
antecedents for almost four hundred years. Were I to use a hyphen, it
could perhaps be interpreted (by those that understand these things) that
I was one of the nouveau-riche (whom you have disparaged in a different
sub-thread).
You didn't have to sell the manor and move into the gate-house, did
you?
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No; under the pseudonymn of Psmith Hamilton Beach, he became the butler of
Matchingham Hall, serving a family surnamed Parsloe Parsloe.
| Quote: | Was the guy that bought the manor a greengrocer that hyphenated
double-barrelled names?
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Neither a greengrocer nor a Green-Grocer. He was a Green Grocer by
surname:-) |
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M. Ranjit Mathews
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:53 am
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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Ruud Harmsen wrote:
| Quote: | When I speak of the length of a vowel, I'm not referring to duration.
I'll bow to anybody's superior knowledge of modern Greek, but for
example /i/ is a long vowel to me, and /e/ a short one.
Sorry, this is beyond me.
17 Jun 2004 11:44:31 -0700: mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle): in
sci.lang:
Sorry, I'm not putting it very clearly, then. (And, as you've already
guessed, my modern Greek is even worse than my ancient.) I mean that
however quickly I say the English 'beat', it still has a long vowel,
distinct from the short one in 'bit'.
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Do you find it necessary to pronounce "piccolo" with an [i:] like in
"peek-a-boo"? Do you find yourself unable to make it as short as the [I] in
"pickle"?
| Quote: | To me (and perhaps this is
old-fashioned: there was always a case here for new terminology),
'long' and 'short' refer to sound quality, not to measurable length in
time. I notice that 'long' has the short vowel, while 'short' has a
long one. Prosodically, in my lexicon diphthongs are long, if that
helps to make my meaning clear.
OK, in English, length and timbre of /i/ and /I/ are coupled. That is,
in British English, although I think I read in Daniel Jones's book
that American English has no distinctive length difference, which may
add to the confusion.
But in many other languages, Modern Greek, Spanish, Portuguese,
Russian too I think etc. it works differently, and all vowels are the
same length,
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Does any Russian say Aleksandr with two <a>s of the same length?
| Quote: | and only differ in timbre. Listening to them with
English-influenced ears then only obscures thing.
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Listening to them with Indian-influenced ears, I hear a short vowel in
[njEt] and a long vowel in [dA]. |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:45 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
| Quote: | On Thursday, in article <40D188AA.2343@worldnet.att.net
grammatim@worldnet.att.net "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
You did not, however, "explain" why you use a double barreled
un-hyphenated name, nor why you don't simply add a hyphen if the Kelly
(or Hamilton) hoi polloi are just too common for you.
Because "Hamilton Kelly" is my surname, and has been that of my
antecedents for almost four hundred years. Were I to use a hyphen, it
could perhaps be interpreted (by those that understand these things) that
I was one of the nouveau-riche (whom you have disparaged in a different
sub-thread).
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Double surnames didn't come into use until the eighteenth century. Perhaps
the best known are the Spencer Churchills, when the Spencer family added
"Churchill" to their surname (having inherited the dukedom of Marlborough),
becoming "Spencer Churchill", rather than "Churchill-Spencer" as they might
have done at a slightly later date. (Earl Spencer belongs to a junior
branch who dropped the "Churchill".) Sir Winston Churchill further confused
the issue by calling himself "Winston S. Churchill"
--
John Briggs |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:23 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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"M. Ranjit Mathews" <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3PqEc.2205$yy1.1822@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
| Quote: | Ruud Harmsen wrote:
When I speak of the length of a vowel, I'm not referring to duration.
I'll bow to anybody's superior knowledge of modern Greek, but for
example /i/ is a long vowel to me, and /e/ a short one.
Sorry, this is beyond me.
17 Jun 2004 11:44:31 -0700: mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle): in
sci.lang:
Sorry, I'm not putting it very clearly, then. (And, as you've already
guessed, my modern Greek is even worse than my ancient.) I mean that
however quickly I say the English 'beat', it still has a long vowel,
distinct from the short one in 'bit'.
Do you find it necessary to pronounce "piccolo" with an [i:] like in
"peek-a-boo"? Do you find yourself unable to make it as short as the [I] in
"pickle"?
[...] |
Not that it's relevant, but the letter i in my 'piccolo' is the same
as the one in my 'pickle': /I/. We can say the ee in 'peek-a-boo' in
the same length of time. As I showed, there's nothing revolutionary
about this well-attested observation, and I was surprised to discover
that some contributors to the thread seemed to be unaware of it, or
perhaps unfamiliar with my unoriginal way of expressing it.
Mike. |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:01 am
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
| Quote: | Does any Russian say Aleksandr with two <a>s of the same length?
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I think all of them do.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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