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Aaron J. Dinkin
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 1:22 am
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 14:43:17 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> writes:
bat /b&t/ (marry) bet /bet/ (merry) bad /behd/ (Mary)
Damn. That doesn't help, since I have the same phoneme in "bat" and
"bad", as well. Do most people who distinguish "marry" and "marry"
have different vowels for "bat" and "bad" (besides, of course, the
regular lengthening of the vowel before a voiced consonant, which I
presume isn't what you meant, because you used slashes).
|
No. Having different vowels for "bat" and "bad" is a result of the
so-called short-a split, which is restricted to the region between New
York and Baltimore. "Mary" and "marry" are distinct in that region,
eastern New England, and as far as I know all of Rightpondia.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
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Frances Kemmish
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 1:46 am
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: |
Hey, the guy was a senator, a governor, and a cabinet secretary for two
terms -- he ain't no farrago. Hamilton Fish, born 1808, was named
after/for his father's friend, Alexander Hamilton. If he'd been born a
couple of decades later, I would expect him to be named Alexander
Hamilton Fish.
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I am surprised that he was not named "Alexander Hamilton Fish". A
governor of Connecticut - and a member of one of the major iron-smelting
families in north west CT, was Alexander Hamilton Holley. He was born in
1804.
His father was John Milton Holley. One of his (AHH's) sisters was named
Sally Porter Holley, after her mother who was Sally Porter before her
marriage. When I was researching the Salisbury iron business families a
few years ago, I came across many people who were given someone else's
entire name as a given name. I don't know (I wasn't taking note of such
things at the time) when the practice first became popular.
Here is a fun site:
http://politicalgraveyard.com/
It includes names of politicians named for famous politicians, and for
other famous people. Benjamin Franklin seems to be the winner.
Fran |
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 1:52 am
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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Frances Kemmish wrote:
| Quote: | Here is a fun site:
http://politicalgraveyard.com/
It includes names of politicians named for famous politicians, and for
other famous people. Benjamin Franklin seems to be the winner.
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For example, there was Captain Benjamin Franklin "Hawkeye" Pierce,
M.D., who was named both for Franklin and for the hapless President
Pierce (whose descendant has become or became a minor and annoying
character on _The West Wing_).
--
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:11 am
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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Ruud Harmsen <realemailseesite01@rudhar.com> wrote in message news:<u6n6d050s86scosv9uj3uijgjfqbgtbjbu@4ax.com>...
| Quote: | 18 Jun 2004 09:11:44 -0700: mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle): in
sci.lang:
QUOTE/...length differences in actual articulation are conditioned by
phonetic context. For example, the final voiceless /t/ in _beat_ has a
shortening effect on the preceding long vowel, whereas the short vowel
in _bid_, being followed by a voiced consonant, is not shortened, with
the result that the vowel lengths in these two words may be
objectively the same. A distinction can therefore be made between
'linguistic' length, as the listener perceives it, and 'real world'
length (or _duration_), as acoustically measured./ENDQUOTE
I was pleased to find that ODEG used 'beat', one of the examples I had
chosen myself; but their more expert selection of 'bid' makes the case
better than my 'bit'.
I infer, possibly wrongly, from a note under *Long* in OED1 that the
expression 'long' as applied to English 'long vowels' was recognised a
century ago as not referring necessarily to duration.
I don't agree. The expression "long vowel", of a phoneme, does refer
to duration. But the road to phoneme to sound is via context, and
context, as explained in what you quote, influences duration = length
too, in addition to the intrinsic duration the phoneme already had.
Two different effects, but both involve duration = length, and nothing
else.
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Well, you don't have to agree with me or my teachers; but you'll need
to work hard to disprove the statement I quoted from an impartial and
not inexpert source: it inescapably says "the vowel lengths in these
words may be objectively the same". "Lengths" here means measurable
duration, and isn't the purely conventional use in reference to
sound-quality.
Have a look and see if OED2 or 3 still says the same as my first
edition: it's under *Length*, and I'm pretty sure you'll agree with my
interpretation of it even if you think the OED got it wrong. But the
few mistakes I've ever found in OED were a lot smaller than that.
Mike. |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:27 am
Post subject: Re: Not about coffee and not about espresso |
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Bob Cunningham wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 17:17:01 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
grammatim@worldnet.att.net> said:
Bob Cunningham wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 11:51:09 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
grammatim@worldnet.att.net> said:
Bob Cunningham wrote:
[...]
Brian spells his name "{Hamilton Kelly}". Is anyone really
too dense to understand the significance of the braces?
How did he spell it before he got a computer that allowed him to type
braces?
The answer to that question is so obvious that I don't want
to waste time with it. Maybe Daniels could ask one of the
older children to help him with it.
Yes, Mr. Cunningham is so out of his depth that he is unable to
recognize the tone -- the "pragmatics," to use the no doubt unfamiliar
technical term -- of an utterance.
Wow! That's really a snow job. Daniels tries to take a
very simple question and divert attention from it to terms
he hopes no one will understand. That's what a snow job
does.
He's too dense to perceive that before Brian {Hamilton
Kelly} had a keyboard with braces on it, and in the 400
years in which his family has had that name, there were
obviously various ways to make marks that would have the
same effect.
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And Bob Cunninham has no idea what the correct answer is, from among the
"various ways," but he responded anyway.
| Quote: | (Maybe that's why he couldn't
understand that he'd asked some 40 questions, some time in the distant
past.)
Yeah, sure.
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Well, I'm certainly not going to hunt down whatever you're talking about
and rehash it.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:28 am
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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Areff wrote:
| Quote: |
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
Ruud Harmsen wrote:
Sat, 19 Jun 2004 12:24:23 GMT: "Peter T. Daniels"
grammatim@worldnet.att.net>: in sci.lang:
Ruud Harmsen wrote:
Evan Kirshenbaum:
For those of us who have the Mary merger, can you illustrate that
Sat, 19 Jun 2004 11:44:06 GMT: "Peter T. Daniels"
grammatim@worldnet.att.net>: in sci.lang:
What's the Mary merger?
Mary, marry and merry sounding alike?
I don't think so, because we already have names for that.
Which are?
MIMIM, for instance.
Hey! Everyone in sci.lang should know that I, Areff, am the kerner and
owner of "MIMIM", "MINMINM", and "MIMBMID", not to mention "CIC", "CINC",
"PIP", and "PINP". "FINB" is the property of Aaron Dinkin. Use these
acronyms properly and with due regard to their kerner and owner, or cease
and desist!
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Has Areff appeared in sci.lang before this thread?
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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Bob Cunningham
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:40 am
Post subject: Re: Not about coffee and not about espresso |
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On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 20:27:42 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@worldnet.att.net> said:
| Quote: | Bob Cunningham wrote:
|
[...]
| Quote: | He's too dense to perceive that before Brian {Hamilton
Kelly} had a keyboard with braces on it, and in the 400
years in which his family has had that name, there were
obviously various ways to make marks that would have the
same effect.
And Bob Cunninham has no idea what the correct answer is,
from among the "various ways," but he responded anyway.
|
What in the world could have led this fogbound P T Daniels
to imagine that there's only one "correct" way to bracket a
compound name?
Is there any reader who could not think of half a dozen
without trying very hard? |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:57 am
Post subject: Re: Not about coffee and not about espresso |
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Bob Cunningham wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 20:27:42 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
grammatim@worldnet.att.net> said:
Bob Cunningham wrote:
[...]
He's too dense to perceive that before Brian {Hamilton
Kelly} had a keyboard with braces on it, and in the 400
years in which his family has had that name, there were
obviously various ways to make marks that would have the
same effect.
And Bob Cunninham has no idea what the correct answer is,
from among the "various ways," but he responded anyway.
What in the world could have led this fogbound P T Daniels
to imagine that there's only one "correct" way to bracket a
compound name?
Is there any reader who could not think of half a dozen
without trying very hard?
|
The question was not "What ways might he have done it?" but "How did he
do it?"
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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Bob Cunningham
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 3:28 am
Post subject: Re: Not about coffee and not about espresso |
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On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 20:57:41 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@worldnet.att.net> said:
| Quote: | Bob Cunningham wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 20:27:42 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
grammatim@worldnet.att.net> said:
Bob Cunningham wrote:
[...]
He's too dense to perceive that before Brian {Hamilton
Kelly} had a keyboard with braces on it, and in the 400
years in which his family has had that name, there were
obviously various ways to make marks that would have the
same effect.
And Bob Cunninham has no idea what the correct answer is,
from among the "various ways," but he responded anyway.
What in the world could have led this fogbound P T Daniels
to imagine that there's only one "correct" way to bracket a
compound name?
Is there any reader who could not think of half a dozen
without trying very hard?
The question was not "What ways might he have done it?" but "How did he
do it?"
|
Your question "How did he do it?" has the strong implication
that it would have been difficult for him. A reasonable
answer was that he could have done it in any of several
ways.
If you want to know exactly how he did it, ask him. Why are
you bothering me about it?
It should think it would be unnecessary to explain these
simple things to you. |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 3:43 am
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> writes:
| Quote: | Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> writes:
I have no idea what you just said. Modal "can" has /&/, tin "can"
has /eh/. (Marry and Mary, respectively; Merry is "ken.")
For those of us who have the Mary merger, can you illustrate that
What's the Mary merger?
|
I would have said "who are MIMIM", but I wasn't sure if that bit of
AUE jargon would be understood in sci.lang. For us, using "Mary" and
"marry" as an example of a contrast doesn't help much.
| Quote: | sentence with, say, "bat", "bet", "bit", etc.? I would certainly say
bat /b&t/ (marry) bet /bet/ (merry) bad /behd/ (Mary)
|
Damn. That doesn't help, since I have the same phoneme in "bat" and
"bad", as well. Do most people who distinguish "marry" and "marry"
have different vowels for "bat" and "bad" (besides, of course, the
regular lengthening of the vowel before a voiced consonant, which I
presume isn't what you meant, because you used slashes).
| Quote: | that both "can"s have the same phoneme, as shows up when the word is
stressed. ("The tin *can* hit the ground" is identical for me under
both readings.)
|
Do you distinguish between those two? The two readings are "It turns
out to be possible for the tin to hit the ground" and "It's the can,
not the cup, that hit the ground". I'm fairly certain I wouldn't do
better than chance at identifying samples of myself reading them.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |We never met anyone who believed in
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |fortune cookies. That's astounding.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Belief in the precognitive powers
|of an Asian pastry is really no
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |wackier than belief in ESP,
(650)857-7572 |subluxation, or astrology, but you
|just don't hear anyone preaching
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |Scientific Cookie-ism.
| Penn and Teller |
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David
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:37 am
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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In article <11ms41xx6l0qk$.1ur3afw3wh5q2$.dlg@40tude.net>, Brian M.
Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:49:42 +0100 David <david@dacha.freeuk.com
wrote in <news:4cc19a2072david@dacha.freeuk.com> in
uk.culture.language.english,sci.lang,alt.usage.english:
In article <40D4749F.6E44@worldnet.att.net>, Peter T. Daniels
grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
David wrote:
In article <40D4287E.3FE0@worldnet.att.net>, Peter T. Daniels
grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
David wrote:
Then they're easily mislead. Hamilton would be a very unusual
forename but not entirely unknown as a surname.
New York State has had several generations of congressmen
called Hamilton Fish.
Ah! That explains Areff's curious post (which, incidentally, had,
without due notice, its Followup set to aue so even I don't know
what I wrote in response).
What were their first names? And did you ask any of them why they
didn't hyphenate their surnames?
Hamilton Fish, Hamilton Fish, Jr., Hamilton Fish III, Hamilton
Fish IV.
I don't know whether they had a middle name; presumably if they
did, it would have appeared as an initial.
I asked what their first names were and not only do you not tell me
but proceed to inform me that three of them extended this multiple
non-hyphenated surname farrago into triplets.
No. All had the forename <Hamilton> and the surname <Fish>. You
misunderstood Peter's response to your comment that <Hamilton> would
be a very unusual forename: he was giving you an example of a family
in which it was in fact a traditional forename. (The first one was
apparently named after Alexander Hamilton.)
|
Ah! Thanks. Quite misleading, really.
Did their birth certificates have to have the "III" and "IV" part of
their surname?
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/aureole/50-ravens.htm
Upon the hill, within the stones, among the scattering of bones... |
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Ruud Harmsen
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:29 am
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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Sat, 19 Jun 2004 23:22:07 +0000 (UTC): "Aaron J. Dinkin"
<dinkin@babel.ling.upenn.edu>: in sci.lang:
| Quote: | No. Having different vowels for "bat" and "bad" is a result of the
so-called short-a split, which is restricted to the region between New
York and Baltimore. "Mary" and "marry" are distinct in that region,
eastern New England, and as far as I know all of Rightpondia.
|
Where Rightpondia is with your head heading north, and including
South-Africa, Nigeria, Tanzania, Kenia, Pakistan, India, and
Hong-Kong, Australia, New-Zealand, I suppose. All those places where
they speak what to me is "normal" English ( (Although I must admit
some Indians and Nigerians speak a kind of English that I can't
understand, while I do understand AmE).
So Rightpondia is largely anything outside Leftpondia.
Just to unjustly simplify things (;-)
--
Ruud Harmsen <rha@rudhar.com> - http://rudhar.com |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Not about coffee and not about espresso |
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Bob Cunningham wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 20:57:41 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
grammatim@worldnet.att.net> said:
Bob Cunningham wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 20:27:42 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
grammatim@worldnet.att.net> said:
Bob Cunningham wrote:
[...]
He's too dense to perceive that before Brian {Hamilton
Kelly} had a keyboard with braces on it, and in the 400
years in which his family has had that name, there were
obviously various ways to make marks that would have the
same effect.
And Bob Cunninham has no idea what the correct answer is,
from among the "various ways," but he responded anyway.
What in the world could have led this fogbound P T Daniels
to imagine that there's only one "correct" way to bracket a
compound name?
Is there any reader who could not think of half a dozen
without trying very hard?
The question was not "What ways might he have done it?" but "How did he
do it?"
Your question "How did he do it?" has the strong implication
that it would have been difficult for him. A reasonable
answer was that he could have done it in any of several
ways.
If you want to know exactly how he did it, ask him. Why are
you bothering me about it?
|
He seems to prefer not to enter the discussion.
Why are you bothering _yourself_ about it? I certainly haven't e-mailed
you asking you to consider the question.
| Quote: | It should think it would be unnecessary to explain these
simple things to you.
|
So far, no fact has been adduced that might, or might not, require an
explanation.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:35 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
| Quote: |
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> writes:
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> writes:
I have no idea what you just said. Modal "can" has /&/, tin "can"
has /eh/. (Marry and Mary, respectively; Merry is "ken.")
For those of us who have the Mary merger, can you illustrate that
What's the Mary merger?
I would have said "who are MIMIM", but I wasn't sure if that bit of
AUE jargon would be understood in sci.lang. For us, using "Mary" and
"marry" as an example of a contrast doesn't help much.
|
I thought a "Mary merger" might mean that "Mary" merged with one or the
other of its examplemates.
| Quote: | sentence with, say, "bat", "bet", "bit", etc.? I would certainly say
bat /b&t/ (marry) bet /bet/ (merry) bad /behd/ (Mary)
Damn. That doesn't help, since I have the same phoneme in "bat" and
"bad", as well. Do most people who distinguish "marry" and "marry"
|
.... and _who_ would those people be?
| Quote: | have different vowels for "bat" and "bad" (besides, of course, the
regular lengthening of the vowel before a voiced consonant, which I
presume isn't what you meant, because you used slashes).
that both "can"s have the same phoneme, as shows up when the word is
stressed. ("The tin *can* hit the ground" is identical for me under
both readings.)
Do you distinguish between those two? The two readings are "It turns
out to be possible for the tin to hit the ground" and "It's the can,
not the cup, that hit the ground". I'm fairly certain I wouldn't do
better than chance at identifying samples of myself reading them.
|
Certainly -- the tin c/eh/n hit the ground when you tossed it out the
window, but the tinpot dictator's fall was stopped by his crowd of
supporters.
The tin c/&/n hit the ground because you used up all the protective
covering under the silver dump!
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:40 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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David wrote:
| Quote: |
In article <11ms41xx6l0qk$.1ur3afw3wh5q2$.dlg@40tude.net>, Brian M.
Scott <b.scott@csuohio.edu> wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:49:42 +0100 David <david@dacha.freeuk.com
wrote in <news:4cc19a2072david@dacha.freeuk.com> in
uk.culture.language.english,sci.lang,alt.usage.english:
In article <40D4749F.6E44@worldnet.att.net>, Peter T. Daniels
grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
David wrote:
In article <40D4287E.3FE0@worldnet.att.net>, Peter T. Daniels
grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
David wrote:
Then they're easily mislead. Hamilton would be a very unusual
forename but not entirely unknown as a surname.
New York State has had several generations of congressmen
called Hamilton Fish.
Ah! That explains Areff's curious post (which, incidentally, had,
without due notice, its Followup set to aue so even I don't know
what I wrote in response).
What were their first names? And did you ask any of them why they
didn't hyphenate their surnames?
Hamilton Fish, Hamilton Fish, Jr., Hamilton Fish III, Hamilton
Fish IV.
I don't know whether they had a middle name; presumably if they
did, it would have appeared as an initial.
I asked what their first names were and not only do you not tell me
but proceed to inform me that three of them extended this multiple
non-hyphenated surname farrago into triplets.
No. All had the forename <Hamilton> and the surname <Fish>. You
misunderstood Peter's response to your comment that <Hamilton> would
be a very unusual forename: he was giving you an example of a family
in which it was in fact a traditional forename. (The first one was
apparently named after Alexander Hamilton.)
Ah! Thanks. Quite misleading, really.
Did their birth certificates have to have the "III" and "IV" part of
their surname?
|
Presumably. Though it's not "part of their surname." When "Sr." dies,
"Jr." drops the suffix, but since Jr. is still alive, III can't swith to
Jr. or something like that. (There are examples of III being nicknamed
"Third," just as Jr. is often called "Bud.")
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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