| Author |
Message |
Enrico C
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:57 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
|
|
Rowan Malin | uk.culture.language.english,sci.lang,alt.usage.english
in <news:2ini6pFp6k52U1@uni-berlin.de>
| Quote: | OK: "Two guys walk into a bar..., one says 'OW! That really hurt!'"
|
In Italian we use the same word, "caffe`", for both the drink (cup of
coffee) and the place (coffee bar). So, the joke is that entering a
"caffe`", one makes a... splash sound ;)
I wonder if one could use the word "coffee" in the same way in
English.
For instance: "Let go to a coffee." instead of "Let go to a coffee
bar."
?
BTW, are there any coffee bars in the UK? 
--
Enrico C
Do Something Amazing Today
Save a Life, Give Blood
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Mike Barnes
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:06 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
|
|
In alt.usage.english, T. Z. wrote:
| Quote: | Two guys go into a coffee shop and order coffee and
espresso.
|
Is espresso not coffee?
| Quote: | The waiter delivers the first order to the wrong guy,
so he says,
"No, I'm coffee and he's espresso."
This is facially nonsensical,
|
Simple metonymy, no? Substitution of the order for the orderer.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dr Robin Bignall
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:13 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
|
|
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 22:30:07 -0400, "Maria Conlon"
<mariaconlon001@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Maria Conlon
We could use a good joke right about now.
|
An unsuccessful fisherman takes refuge in a monastery. Come dinnertime, in
anticipation, he asks a cowled figure "Are you the fish fryer?"
"No, I'm the chip monk."
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Hertfordshire
England
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Briggs
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:18 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
|
|
Demetrius Zeluff wrote:
| Quote: | "Maria Conlon" <mariaconlon001@hotmail.com> wrote in news:2inb7bFpcd8gU1
@uni-berlin.de:
T. Z. wrote:
[snip]
This is facially nonsensical, but I think this is
uttered pretty often by educated adults. Do you
agree?
[snip]
The use of "facially" here is unusual, I think.
I parse it as "factually".
|
It can't be "factually" - how would "factually nonsensical" differ from
"Non-factually nonsensical". The nearest I can get is "on the face of it",
but what is really meant is anyone's guess. I don't think you mean "parse".
--
John Briggs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter T. Daniels
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:26 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
|
|
T. Z. wrote:
| Quote: |
Two guys go into a coffee shop and order coffee and
espresso.
The waiter delivers the first order to the wrong guy,
so he says,
"No, I'm coffee and he's espresso."
This is facially nonsensical, but I think this is
uttered pretty often by educated adults. Do you
agree?
What are some other examples of such facially
nonsensical utterances?
I'm interested in examples in other languages as well.
Thanks.
|
The normal way to say it is "I'm the coffee and he's the espresso."
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Keith Edgerley
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:27 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
|
|
"Matthew Huntbach" <mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:ca6l0v$scj$2@beta.qmul.ac.uk...
| Quote: | In uk.culture.language.english T. Z. <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]
wrote:
Two guys go into a coffee shop and order coffee and
espresso.
The waiter delivers the first order to the wrong guy,
so he says,
"No, I'm coffee and he's espresso."
This is facially nonsensical, but I think this is
uttered pretty often by educated adults. Do you
agree?
What are some other examples of such facially
nonsensical utterances?
Ignoring the coffee/espresso issue, what is actually happening here is
that
"I'm coffee" is a shortening of "I'm the one who's having coffee".
For the waiter, the only thing that matters about the customers is what
they
have ordered, so the waiter is going to see them as essentialy "coffee"
and
"espresso" i.e. in terms of what they ordered.
Similarly, a medical practitioner will see patients in terms of their
diseases. One can imagine a doctor in a urology ward asking "Are you the
kidney stone or the bladder infection?". That wouldn't be good bedside
manners, but they certainly do talk like that amongst themselves.
|
Other languages: in a similar vein, in a French butcher's shop:
Butcher, to his assistant: Veux-tu découper madame (who has asked for her
chicken to be jointed)
Or in another store: Cécile, viens emballer monsieur (gift-wrap his
purchases).
Keith Edgerley |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter T. Daniels
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:01 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
|
|
Demetrius Zeluff wrote:
| Quote: |
"Maria Conlon" <mariaconlon001@hotmail.com> wrote in news:2inb7bFpcd8gU1
@uni-berlin.de:
T. Z. wrote:
[snip]
This is facially nonsensical, but I think this is
uttered pretty often by educated adults. Do you
agree?
[snip]
The use of "facially" here is unusual, I think.
I parse it as "factually".
|
The "English" would be _prima facie_, and the English would be "on the
face of it."
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter T. Daniels
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:02 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
|
|
Enrico C wrote:
| Quote: |
Rowan Malin | uk.culture.language.english,sci.lang,alt.usage.english
in <news:2ini6pFp6k52U1@uni-berlin.de
OK: "Two guys walk into a bar..., one says 'OW! That really hurt!'"
In Italian we use the same word, "caffe`", for both the drink (cup of
coffee) and the place (coffee bar). So, the joke is that entering a
"caffe`", one makes a... splash sound ;)
I wonder if one could use the word "coffee" in the same way in
English.
|
No.
| Quote: | For instance: "Let go to a coffee." instead of "Let go to a coffee
bar."
?
|
The English for that is "Starbucks."
| Quote: | BTW, are there any coffee bars in the UK?
-- |
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Matthew Huntbach
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:28 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
|
|
In uk.culture.language.english Enrico C <use_replyto_address@despammed.com> wrote:
| Quote: | In Italian we use the same word, "caffe`", for both the drink (cup of
coffee) and the place (coffee bar). So, the joke is that entering a
"caffe`", one makes a... splash sound ;)
I wonder if one could use the word "coffee" in the same way in
English.
For instance: "Let go to a coffee." instead of "Let go to a coffee
bar."
?
|
An unpretentious eating place in England is called a "cafe" (sorry can't do
the accent on the 'e' where I am), which is sometimes pronounced as the French word it cm
word it comes from, and sometimes as "caff". But the connection with
"coffee" is forgotten. A cafe would quite likely only have instant coffee
available. One would say "let's go to a cafe" or "let's go for a
coffee", but "coffee" would not be used to mean a place that sold coffee.
However, the words "Indian" and "Chinese" can be used to mean a person of
that race, a restaurant selling meals of their cuisine (or at least something
approximating to it adopted to the English market) or the meal itself. Which
is sometimes the source of inane jokes such as the one made recently by the
(ex?) Tory MP Anne Winterton (Google on "Chinese" and "Anne Winterton" if
you must).
| Quote: | BTW, are there any coffee bars in the UK?
|
A small number of long-established independent businesses (sometimes also called
"milk bars"), and a much larger number established only in the past few
years when there has been a craze for them, the recent ones generally being
part of a chain, particular the American chain "Starbucks". It's been said
a lot recently that the American television programme called "Friends" was
the thing which sparked off the craze for them. Since I've never watched
that programme, I wouldn't know.
The traditionally English thing would be the "tea shop", which is actually a
place serving a light meal with tea. There aren't many of these around, and
those that exist generally trade on an image of being quaint and genteel.
Matthew Huntbach |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tony Cooper
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:30 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
|
|
On 9 Jun 2004 13:28:32 GMT, Matthew Huntbach <mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>
wrote:
| Quote: | A small number of long-established independent businesses (sometimes also called
"milk bars"), and a much larger number established only in the past few
years when there has been a craze for them, the recent ones generally being
part of a chain, particular the American chain "Starbucks". It's been said
a lot recently that the American television programme called "Friends" was
the thing which sparked off the craze for them. Since I've never watched
that programme, I wouldn't know.
|
Is a chain an "American chain" because the company originated in the
United States? If there are several locations in the UK, and the
ownership of the locations is held by UK firms, would "American chain"
still be applicable?
If an English or Australian publisher owns several US newspapers,
would they be a British chain of newspapers or an Australian chain of
newspapers? If the ownership is by a British or Australian firm, they
might be an "Australian-owned chain". However, if the owner sets up a
US corporation for ownership, the chain would a US chain, but the
holding corporation an Australian-owned entity.
Of course, it's possible that the Starbucks in the UK are directly
owned by the Starbucks corporation here, and my question is moot. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Briggs
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:36 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
|
|
Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | On 9 Jun 2004 13:28:32 GMT, Matthew Huntbach <mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk
wrote:
A small number of long-established independent businesses (sometimes
also called "milk bars"), and a much larger number established only in
the past few
years when there has been a craze for them, the recent ones generally
being part of a chain, particular the American chain "Starbucks". It's
been said
a lot recently that the American television programme called "Friends"
was
the thing which sparked off the craze for them. Since I've never watched
that programme, I wouldn't know.
Is a chain an "American chain" because the company originated in the
United States? If there are several locations in the UK, and the
ownership of the locations is held by UK firms, would "American chain"
still be applicable?
|
Depends who owns the "UK firms".
| Quote: | If an English or Australian publisher owns several US newspapers,
would they be a British chain of newspapers or an Australian chain of
newspapers? If the ownership is by a British or Australian firm, they
might be an "Australian-owned chain". However, if the owner sets up a
US corporation for ownership, the chain would a US chain, but the
holding corporation an Australian-owned entity.
|
Maybe, maybe not. Remember that Rupert Murdoch was forced to take US
citizenship.
| Quote: | Of course, it's possible that the Starbucks in the UK are directly
owned by the Starbucks corporation here, and my question is moot.
|
What difference does it make if it is directly or indirectly owned? Tower
Records was "incorporated ... under the laws of California", which didn't
help, of course, when they were affected by adverse trading conditions in
the USA.
--
John Briggs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
David
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:47 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
|
|
In article <snidc0pitdbsmjpu2i8d8iiq3ampkpvo3n@4ax.com>, Dave Fawthrop
<hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 09:01:22 +0100, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com
wrote:
| http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/yds/5sb-0.htm The Yorkshire Dialect
| Society: Summer Bulletin
Oops You reorganised the web site, but forgot about the sig links
|
No, I didn't forget: I'm just a lazy old so-and-so.
(And, for what it's worth, Pace sold RISC OS to Castle quite a while
ago and I still haven't changed my free stuff page.)
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/free/
Vale RISC OS: Requiescat In Pace (aka Free Stuff)
- Free Desktop Software, Font, Playing Cards and Mah-Jong Tiles |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gareth Rees
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:58 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
|
|
T. Z. wrote:
| Quote: | The waiter delivers the first order to the wrong guy,
so he says, "No, I'm coffee and he's espresso."
|
A clear and plain example of metonymy.
| Quote: | This is facially nonsensical
|
That sounds wrong to me. If you want an adverb with a similar
meaning to the idiom "on the face of it", try "clearly" or
"patently".
--
Gareth Rees |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Matthew Huntbach
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:03 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
|
|
In uk.culture.language.english Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On 9 Jun 2004 13:28:32 GMT, Matthew Huntbach <mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> wrote:
A small number of long-established independent businesses (sometimes also called
"milk bars"), and a much larger number established only in the past few
years when there has been a craze for them, the recent ones generally being
part of a chain, particular the American chain "Starbucks". It's been said
a lot recently that the American television programme called "Friends" was
the thing which sparked off the craze for them. Since I've never watched
that programme, I wouldn't know.
Is a chain an "American chain" because the company originated in the
United States? If there are several locations in the UK, and the
ownership of the locations is held by UK firms, would "American chain"
still be applicable?
|
"Starbucks" is perceived as American, and this is part of its attraction.
Because it is American, it is supposed to make people think of the glamorous
lifestyle as portrayed in the aforementioned television programme. I suppose
if a chain of tea shops were to open up in the USA, based on a similar
British chain, and trading off a "quaint little Britain" image, people would
think of it as a "British chain" whatever the structure of ownership was.
The fact is that about five or so years ago there was no such thing as a
"Starbucks" in Britain. Now there seems to be one wherever you look, that's
an exaggeration, but not much of an exaggeration in central London. I
remember when the first ones opened people said "Look - that's a coffee bar
just like they have in the USA, so it must sell proper USA style coffee".
Matthew Huntbach |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Stewart Gordon
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:08 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
|
|
Claus Tondering wrote:
<snip>
| Quote: | In Danish it is quite common to say "The price is xxx per nose"
instead of "The price is xxx per person". I presume it started as a
joke, but it has become so common that hardly anybody considers it
weird any longer.
|
"Per head" is the English equivalent. At least it gets used here in
Britain - don't know about elsewhere. I find it a silly expression, but
it does have the virtue of making me glad I'm not Zaphod Beeblebrox.
Stewart.
--
My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox, aside from its being the
unfortunate victim of intensive mail-bombing at the moment. Please keep
replies on the 'group where everyone may benefit. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in