| Author |
Message |
Mike Stevens
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:19 am
Post subject: Re: "I'm coffee and he's espresso." -- facially nonsensical |
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Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> wrote:
| Quote: | "T. Z." <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
re: "facially"
In the US we often talk about "facially neutral" laws
with discriminatory intent or impact.
Often? Googling shows that the term "facially neutral" does exist, but
it appears to be limited to court opinions and policies concerning
employment discrimination. In a 1976 decision, the US Supreme Court
said:
(c) The disproportionate impact of Test 21, which is
neutral on its face, does not warrant the conclusion
that the test was a purposely discriminatory device,
and on the facts before it the District Court
properly held that any inference of discrimination
was unwarranted. P. 246.
[WASHINGTON v. DAVIS, 426 U.S. 229 (1976)]
The phrase "neutral on its face" is apparently what gave rise to
"facially neutral," to refer to the same sort of policy.
|
In UK Parliamentary & legal usage there is a phrase "on the face of the
Bill" which means that what's being talked about is directly written in
as part of the legislation, as opposed to deduced from it or determined
by subsequent secondary legislation.
--
Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II
web site www.mike-stevens.co.yk
Old grammarians never die, they simply parse away.
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T. Z.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:46 pm
Post subject: Re: "I'm 2 o'clock and he's 3 o'clock." -- facially nonsensi |
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Thanks very much for the comments.
Could someone comment on this below?
| Quote: | In my mind, The SIMPLE-version is just sloppy
English,
and the THE-version is correct metonymy.
|
________________________________
(versions)
SIMPLE: "I'm 2 o'clock and he's 3 o'clock."
THE: "I'm the 2 o'clock and he's the 3 o'clock."
HYBRID: "I'm 2 o'clock and he's the 3 o'clock."
Are there similar utterances in other European
languages?
German: Ich bin ... und er ist ...
French: Je suis ... et il est ...
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/ |
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Matti Lamprhey
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:26 pm
Post subject: Re: "Facts" about the UK |
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Note: X-posting to ticle the uclers.
"Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote...
No, but the very similar "The western end of the Severn Bridge is in
Wales" IS actually wrong. Not a lot of people know that.
Matti
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M. J. Powell
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:16 pm
Post subject: Re: "Facts" about the UK |
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In message <2l9r47Fa7q3cU3@uni-berlin.de>, Matti Lamprhey
<matti-nospam@totally-official.com> writes
| Quote: | Note: X-posting to ticle the uclers.
"Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote...
"Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote...
http://www.helenmckenzie.com/uk-old/index.html
"From England you can get to Wales via the Severn Bridge.
Erm, this isn't actually wrong, is it?
No, but the very similar "The western end of the Severn Bridge is in
Wales" IS actually wrong. Not a lot of people know that.
|
Both of the Severn Bridges?
Mike |
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Philip Eden
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:26 pm
Post subject: Re: "Facts" about the UK |
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"Matti Lamprhey" <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote in
message news:2l9r47Fa7q3cU3@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | Note: X-posting to ticle the uclers.
"Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote...
"Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote...
http://www.helenmckenzie.com/uk-old/index.html
"From England you can get to Wales via the Severn Bridge.
Erm, this isn't actually wrong, is it?
No, but the very similar "The western end of the Severn Bridge
is in
Wales" IS actually wrong. Not a lot of people know that.
I suppose it depends on where you think the bridge ends. |
However I am happy to admit that I did not know that the
first land encountered by the bridge on the western side
Bristol Channel (or is it Severn Estuary by now?) is in
Glo'shuhr.
Philip Eden
Channel |
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Matti Lamprhey
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:56 pm
Post subject: Re: "Facts" about the UK |
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"Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote...
| Quote: | "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote...
Note: X-posting to ticle the uclers.
"Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote...
"Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote...
http://www.helenmckenzie.com/uk-old/index.html
"From England you can get to Wales via the Severn Bridge.
Erm, this isn't actually wrong, is it?
No, but the very similar "The western end of the Severn Bridge
is in Wales" IS actually wrong. Not a lot of people know that.
I suppose it depends on where you think the bridge ends.
However I am happy to admit that I did not know that the
first land encountered by the bridge on the western side
Bristol Channel (or is it Severn Estuary by now?) is in
Glo'shuhr.
|
There are two bridges in series, each a distinct structure. The western
one is called the Wye Bridge, naturally, and it's the one which takes
you from Gloucestershire into Monmouthshire/Wales.
I'm not sure of the estuarine nomenclature thereabouts, but it seems
natural to me to say that the Bristol Channel is that part of the Severn
Estuary which includes Avonmouth; it probably extends at least as far
upstream as the Severn Bridge.
Matti |
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Matti Lamprhey
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:59 pm
Post subject: Re: "Facts" about the UK |
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"M. J. Powell" <mike@DeLeTe.pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote...
| Quote: | Matti Lamprhey <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> writes
Note: X-posting to ticle the uclers.
"Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote...
"Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote...
http://www.helenmckenzie.com/uk-old/index.html
"From England you can get to Wales via the Severn Bridge.
Erm, this isn't actually wrong, is it?
No, but the very similar "The western end of the Severn Bridge is in
Wales" IS actually wrong. Not a lot of people know that.
Both of the Severn Bridges?
|
There's only one in the area -- the new thing is called the Second
Severn Crossing (although nowadays the "Second" bit is often dropped);
most of it is causeway rather than bridge. The western end of that is
unambiguously in Wales, of course.
Matti
-- still awaiting your e-mail response from months ago! |
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Philip Eden
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:11 pm
Post subject: Re: "Facts" about the UK |
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"Matti Lamprhey" <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote in
message news:2la0neFa8ec8U1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | "Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote...
I suppose it depends on where you think the bridge ends.
However I am happy to admit that I did not know that the
first land encountered by the bridge on the western side
Bristol Channel (or is it Severn Estuary by now?) is in
Glo'shuhr.
There are two bridges in series, each a distinct structure. The
western
one is called the Wye Bridge, naturally, and it's the one which
takes
you from Gloucestershire into Monmouthshire/Wales.
I'm not sure of the estuarine nomenclature thereabouts, but it
seems
natural to me to say that the Bristol Channel is that part of
the Severn
Estuary which includes Avonmouth; it probably extends at least
as far
upstream as the Severn Bridge.
Thankyou. I'll store that away for future use. I can't guarantee |
always crediting you with it, though -- at least not in
conversation.
I've only crossed it twice -- once in each direction -- and that
was
back in 1989. I do remember thinking that the "bridge" seemed to
go on for ever on the western side. Now I know.
Philip Eden |
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Philip Eden
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:14 pm
Post subject: Re: "Facts" about the UK |
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"Matti Lamprhey" <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote in
message news:2la0nfFa8ec8U2@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | "M. J. Powell" <mike@DeLeTe.pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote...
Matti Lamprhey <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> writes
Note: X-posting to ticle the uclers.
"Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote...
"Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote...
http://www.helenmckenzie.com/uk-old/index.html
"From England you can get to Wales via the Severn Bridge.
Erm, this isn't actually wrong, is it?
No, but the very similar "The western end of the Severn
Bridge is in
Wales" IS actually wrong. Not a lot of people know that.
Both of the Severn Bridges?
There's only one in the area -- the new thing is called the
Second
Severn Crossing (although nowadays the "Second" bit is often
dropped);
most of it is causeway rather than bridge. The western end of
that is
unambiguously in Wales, of course.
One might idly wonder where the First Severn Crossing is? (AmE |
"is.")
(Actually, in this case, probably "is." in BrE too).
Philip Eden |
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Dud Fivers
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:52 am
Post subject: Re: "Facts" about the UK |
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| Quote: | There are two bridges in series, each a distinct structure. The western
one is called the Wye Bridge, naturally, and it's the one which takes
you from Gloucestershire into Monmouthshire/Wales.
|
A stickler about such matters, I was going to protest that Monmouth is
an English county. Keen to get my facts straight before posting, I
got out the Ordnance Survey map and unfolded it. Then, of course, I
remembered; Monmouth no longer exists; it was done away with in Mr
Heath's infamous boundary reforms of 1974. On modern Ordnance Survey
maps the boundary between England and Wales is shown as running along
the River Wye with Gloucestershire on the east bank and "Gwent" on the
west. The old Ordnance Survey One Inch Map of Great Britain (I own a
complete set of its 190 sheets) shows the boundary following the
Rhymney River (I would have preferred "Afon Rhymney") which flows into
the Bristol Channel just east of Cardiff. Thus, not only did
Monmouthshire cease to exist as an administrative entity in 1974 but
the whole county was appropriated by Wales. I don't remember this
arousing any comment at the time. Why did nobody mind? If, say,
Cumberland had been annexed by Scotland, people would have objected.
Anyway, most of the southern half of Scotland is historically English
and it should be the other way around. I propose an irredenta to
reclaim the County of Monmouth for England. |
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Dave Swindell
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:48 am
Post subject: Re: "Facts" about the UK |
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In article <2d21a81c.0407101452.329fb33c@posting.google.com>, Dud Fivers
<sdowle@yahoo.co.uk> writes
| Quote: |
SNIP
The old Ordnance Survey One Inch Map of Great Britain (I own a
complete set of its 190 sheets) shows the boundary following the
Rhymney River (I would have preferred "Afon Rhymney") which flows into
the Bristol Channel just east of Cardiff. Thus, not only did
Monmouthshire cease to exist as an administrative entity in 1974 but
the whole county was appropriated by Wales. I don't remember this
arousing any comment at the time. Why did nobody mind? If, say,
Cumberland had been annexed by Scotland, people would have objected.
Anyway, most of the southern half of Scotland is historically English
and it should be the other way around. I propose an irredenta to
reclaim the County of Monmouth for England.
|
As my uncle in Ebbw Vale used to say, "They say Monmouthshire is in
England, but just you try to get a drink there in a Sunday!"
--
Dave OSOS#24 dswindell.gerbil@tcp.co.uk Remove my gerbil for email replies
Yamaha XJ900S & Wessex sidecar, the sexy one
Yamaha XJ900F & Watsonian Monaco, the comfortable one
http://dswindell.members.beeb.net |
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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 6:06 am
Post subject: Re: "Facts" about the UK |
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On 10 Jul 2004 15:52:19 -0700, sdowle@yahoo.co.uk (Dud Fivers) wrote:
| Quote: | There are two bridges in series, each a distinct structure. The western
one is called the Wye Bridge, naturally, and it's the one which takes
you from Gloucestershire into Monmouthshire/Wales.
A stickler about such matters, I was going to protest that Monmouth is
an English county. Keen to get my facts straight before posting, I
got out the Ordnance Survey map and unfolded it. Then, of course, I
remembered; Monmouth no longer exists; it was done away with in Mr
Heath's infamous boundary reforms of 1974. On modern Ordnance Survey
maps the boundary between England and Wales is shown as running along
the River Wye with Gloucestershire on the east bank and "Gwent" on the
west. The old Ordnance Survey One Inch Map of Great Britain (I own a
complete set of its 190 sheets) shows the boundary following the
Rhymney River (I would have preferred "Afon Rhymney") which flows into
the Bristol Channel just east of Cardiff. Thus, not only did
Monmouthshire cease to exist as an administrative entity in 1974 but
the whole county was appropriated by Wales. I don't remember this
arousing any comment at the time. Why did nobody mind? If, say,
Cumberland had been annexed by Scotland, people would have objected.
Anyway, most of the southern half of Scotland is historically English
and it should be the other way around. I propose an irredenta to
reclaim the County of Monmouth for England.
|
Good luck with your enterprise!
However, before you saddle up your horse and prepare for battle it might be
wise to do some research, starting with the outline of the history and
status of Monmouthshire at:
http://www.halefamily.net/gwent.html
--
Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e) |
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John Hall
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:43 pm
Post subject: Re: "Facts" about the UK |
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In article <2d21a81c.0407101452.329fb33c@posting.google.com>,
Dud Fivers <sdowle@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
<snip>
| Quote: | Then, of course, I
remembered; Monmouth no longer exists; it was done away with in Mr
Heath's infamous boundary reforms of 1974. On modern Ordnance Survey
maps the boundary between England and Wales is shown as running along
the River Wye with Gloucestershire on the east bank and "Gwent" on the
west. The old Ordnance Survey One Inch Map of Great Britain (I own a
complete set of its 190 sheets) shows the boundary following the
Rhymney River (I would have preferred "Afon Rhymney") which flows into
the Bristol Channel just east of Cardiff. Thus, not only did
Monmouthshire cease to exist as an administrative entity in 1974 but
the whole county was appropriated by Wales. I don't remember this
arousing any comment at the time. Why did nobody mind?
|
ISTR that there _was_ quite a lot of comment at the time, and that some
people objected. Of course, many of the alterations to counties that
were made at that time were bitterly opposed by some people, but their
opposition had little or no effect.
--
John Hall
"If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts;
but if he will be content to begin with doubts,
he shall end in certainties." Francis Bacon (1561-1626) |
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Dave Fawthrop
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:21 pm
Post subject: Re: "Facts" about the UK |
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|
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:43:33 +0100, John Hall <nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk>
wrote:
| ISTR that there _was_ quite a lot of comment at the time, and that some
| people objected. Of course, many of the alterations to counties that
| were made at that time were bitterly opposed by some people, but their
| opposition had little or no effect.
Yorkshire still has three Ridings. The old boundaries are still used by
many Tyke organisations.
The abomination Humberside has recently split into the East Riding of
Yorkshire and North Lincolnshire as it should be.
B*gg*r those idiots in L*nd*n, they know nowt.
Dave F |
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Bob Cunningham
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:51 pm
Post subject: Re: "Facts" about the UK |
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|
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:43:33 +0100, John Hall
<nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk> said:
| Quote: | In article <2d21a81c.0407101452.329fb33c@posting.google.com>,
Dud Fivers <sdowle@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
snip
Then, of course, I
remembered; Monmouth no longer exists; it was done away with in Mr
Heath's infamous boundary reforms of 1974. On modern Ordnance Survey
maps the boundary between England and Wales is shown as running along
the River Wye with Gloucestershire on the east bank and "Gwent" on the
west. The old Ordnance Survey One Inch Map of Great Britain (I own a
complete set of its 190 sheets) shows the boundary following the
Rhymney River (I would have preferred "Afon Rhymney") which flows into
the Bristol Channel just east of Cardiff. Thus, not only did
Monmouthshire cease to exist as an administrative entity in 1974 but
the whole county was appropriated by Wales. I don't remember this
arousing any comment at the time. Why did nobody mind?
ISTR that there _was_ quite a lot of comment at the time, and that some
people objected. Of course, many of the alterations to counties that
were made at that time were bitterly opposed by some people, but their
opposition had little or no effect.
|
There used to be a political entity (county, shire,
whatever) in Scotland called Cunningham. It seems a shame
it was changed. |
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