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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Meet in Vancouver? |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
| Quote: | On 17 Jun, in article
1118999818.908206.211970@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
danilla@pisem.net "danilla" wrote:
Arthur Hagen wrote:
I'm not sure about ð -- dh? (pronounced somewhat like th in thus)
John Tolkien, for example, used to spell it that way. I mean dh
Indeed; also, when I first visited Cyprus (many years ago now) road-
signs used to transliterate the Greek "dhelta" as "dh" (since the
ancient D has become a voiced TH). Since 1994, or thereabouts, the
idiot minister responsible for such signage has decreed a
letter-by-letter transliteration, rather than a phonetic one: so
that, for instance, the village whose name is pronounced as "Payea"
is written as "Pegeia".
(They also changed the transliteration which was formerly Paphos
[which had been used since Roman times] into Pafos: supposedly
because too many German tourists were pronouncing the place-name as
Pap-hos: which seems unlikely, considering that Germans usually know
that "ph" is an "f" rather than an aspirated "p".)
The digraph "dh" is a very useful addition to the English language;
sadly, few understand its implications. (Ditto the few that
understand that the Welsh "dd" represents the same phoneme.)
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That would appear to be a sense of 'useful' with which I was not previously
familiar :-)
I see no point to rendering the eth as 'dh'.
--
John Briggs
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Richard Bos
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:16 am
Post subject: Re: [F] NL Gamesmeet 5.0 Meet Report |
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bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote:
| Quote: | On Friday, in article <42b2f4ac.9339046@news.xs4all.nl
rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl "Richard Bos" wrote:
Yes, that's called the Game of Goose in English, dixit OED. And it isn't
just Traditional Dutch, it's Traditional European, with varieties
apparently all over the place. If you had one with "broken wing", that's
modern; the original hazards were more like "the toll bridge", "fell in
the well" and "the prison". And you forgot the number 63; it is Very
Significant, but don't ask me of what.
I've just had a look in Chambers' Dictionary, and under the headword
/goose/ it does indeed list "a game of chance once common in England, in
which the players moved counters on a board, with the right to a double
move on reaching a picture of a goose (obs.)"
Does OED /really/ list the "Game of Goose"?
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No, like the Chambers', it lists it under "Goose", and as no longer in
vogue. But it was once played all over the continent.
Richard |
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Giles Todd
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: [F] NL Gamesmeet 5.0 Meet Report |
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On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:05:09 +0100 (BST), bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian
{Hamilton Kelly}) wrote:
| Quote: | Does OED /really/ list the "Game of Goose"? This seems very un-English
to me. "Goose" I could accept (although until this thread not have
understood one iota).
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Listed under 'goose, n.':
4. †(game of) goose: A game played with counters on a board divided
into compartments, in some of which a goose was depicted (obs.). [Cf.
F. jeu de l'oie, Du. ganzenspel.] fox and geese (see fox n. 16d);
also one of the pieces in this game.
I remember playing a game called 'fox and geese' on a draughts board
with draughts pieces when I was wee, but I can't for the life of me
remember the rules, apart from the fact that they involved unequal
numbers of pieces with different abilities.
I think I learned the game from my dad's copy of Arthur Mee's
"Children's Encyclopedia", but I no longer have that around to check,
and my memory may well be unreliable.
Giles
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:34 pm
Post subject: Re: [F] NL Gamesmeet 5.0 Meet Report |
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On Sunday, in article
<4qc9b1l5p1mi92t1m50i25j5g8bu160jdt@4ax.com>
g@prullenbak.todd.nu "Giles Todd" wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:05:09 +0100 (BST), bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian
{Hamilton Kelly}) wrote:
Does OED /really/ list the "Game of Goose"? This seems very un-English
to me. "Goose" I could accept (although until this thread not have
understood one iota).
Listed under 'goose, n.':
4. †(game of) goose: A game played with counters on a board divided
into compartments, in some of which a goose was depicted (obs.). [Cf.
F. jeu de l'oie, Du. ganzenspel.] fox and geese (see fox n. 16d);
also one of the pieces in this game.
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Where Chambers has (as previously quoted) a "game of chance...players
moved counters on a board with the right to a double move on reaching a
picture of a goose". They make no mention of the [now obviously]
different game entitled "fox and geese", which I had originally
erroneously thought to be that mentioned much earlier in the thread
(before I XPed into ucle).
I wonder why OED list it there, since it seems so completely different;
surely they hadn't latched on to my erroneous supposition already!
| Quote: | I remember playing a game called 'fox and geese' on a draughts board
with draughts pieces when I was wee, but I can't for the life of me
remember the rules, apart from the fact that they involved unequal
numbers of pieces with different abilities.
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Chambers again defines: "a game played with pieces on a board, where the
object is for certain pieces called the geese to surround or corner one
called the fox, or prevent him from passing". (ISTR once playing this
game, being taught by a Bavarian in an English pub; although I had heard
of the existence of the game in my childhood, I had never previously met
with it in the flesh.)
| Quote: | I think I learned the game from my dad's copy of Arthur Mee's
"Children's Encyclopedia", but I no longer have that around to check,
and my memory may well be unreliable.
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I have a number of 1950s vintage books with games and pastimes, but sadly
none of them lists either of the games under discussion.
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 |
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Molly Mockford
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:30 pm
Post subject: Re: [F] NL Gamesmeet 5.0 Meet Report |
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At 02:00:49 on Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu> wrote
in <4qc9b1l5p1mi92t1m50i25j5g8bu160jdt@4ax.com>:
| Quote: | I remember playing a game called 'fox and geese' on a draughts board
with draughts pieces when I was wee, but I can't for the life of me
remember the rules, apart from the fact that they involved unequal
numbers of pieces with different abilities.
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IIRC, there was one "fox" and eight "geese". The fox could move
forwards or backwards; the geese could only move forwards (always
diagonally, sticking to the same colour squares). The object of the fox
was to get through the flock of geese to the other side, and the object
of the geese was to surround the fox and immobilise him.
--
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
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Richard Bos
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:42 pm
Post subject: Re: [F] NL Gamesmeet 5.0 Meet Report |
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Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:05:09 +0100 (BST), bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian
{Hamilton Kelly}) wrote:
Does OED /really/ list the "Game of Goose"? This seems very un-English
to me. "Goose" I could accept (although until this thread not have
understood one iota).
Listed under 'goose, n.':
4. †(game of) goose: A game played with counters on a board divided
into compartments, in some of which a goose was depicted (obs.). [Cf.
F. jeu de l'oie, Du. ganzenspel.]
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Note that, as Sanity wrote, the usual Dutch name is ganzenbord.
| Quote: | I remember playing a game called 'fox and geese' on a draughts board
with draughts pieces when I was wee, but I can't for the life of me
remember the rules, apart from the fact that they involved unequal
numbers of pieces with different abilities.
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Yes, we have that as well, called "vos en ganzen" or something similar;
the rules are that the geese can't capture, but can pen the fox in a
corner to win, while the fox's goal is to capture ("eat") enough geese
to make this impossible.
Richard |
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Dave Fawthrop
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:07 pm
Post subject: Re: [F] NL Gamesmeet 5.0 Meet Report |
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On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:34:37 +0100 (BST), bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton
Kelly}) wrote:
| On Sunday, in article
| <4qc9b1l5p1mi92t1m50i25j5g8bu160jdt@4ax.com>
| g@prullenbak.todd.nu "Giles Todd" wrote:
|
| > On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:05:09 +0100 (BST), bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian
| > {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote:
| >
| > > Does OED /really/ list the "Game of Goose"? This seems very un-English
| > > to me. "Goose" I could accept (although until this thread not have
| > > understood one iota).
| >
| > Listed under 'goose, n.':
| >
| > 4. †(game of) goose: A game played with counters on a board divided
| > into compartments, in some of which a goose was depicted (obs.). [Cf.
| > F. jeu de l'oie, Du. ganzenspel.] fox and geese (see fox n. 16d);
| > also one of the pieces in this game.
http://www.mastersgames.com/rules/fox-geese-rules.htm
http://www.gamepuzzles.com/mfrules.htm#FOX
http://www.tarahill.com/instruct.html
http://www.game-club.com/jav10-10/foxrules.htm
Ain 't Google wonderful
--
Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com
Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and
Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day. |
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David Wilson Clarke
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:41 pm
Post subject: Re: [F] Meet in Vancouver? |
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Richard Bos wrote:
| Quote: | bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote:
I suspect that writing "æ" for "ae" in Latin words is an affectation,
perhaps picked from mediævalists [sic!] and monks, who also had to write
the letter "ash" in Anglo-Saxon and Old English[1] manuscripts.
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Could you set your charset, so things don't get mushed, especially in a
thread like this.
--
Dave Clarke |
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PleegWat
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:51 pm
Post subject: Re: [F] NL Gamesmeet 5.0 Meet Report |
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Richard Bos wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, we have that as well, called "vos en ganzen" or something similar;
the rules are that the geese can't capture, but can pen the fox in a
corner to win, while the fox's goal is to capture ("eat") enough geese
to make this impossible.
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Variety I'm familiar with "wolf en schapen" (wolf and sheep) the wolf
can't capture any sheep, but has to get past them. Played, by the way,
on a 10*10 square board, and with 5 sheep. The sheep have a winning tactic.
--
PleegWat
Remove caps to reply |
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John Hall
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:06 pm
Post subject: Re: [F] NL Gamesmeet 5.0 Meet Report |
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In article <11bb5437nt9lv1d@corp.supernews.com>,
PleegWat <pleegwat@PLEEGWAT.leegwater-68.demon.nl.INVALID> writes:
| Quote: | Richard Bos wrote:
Yes, we have that as well, called "vos en ganzen" or something similar;
the rules are that the geese can't capture, but can pen the fox in a
corner to win, while the fox's goal is to capture ("eat") enough geese
to make this impossible.
Variety I'm familiar with "wolf en schapen" (wolf and sheep) the wolf
can't capture any sheep, but has to get past them. Played, by the way,
on a 10*10 square board, and with 5 sheep. The sheep have a winning
tactic.
I think I have a vague memory of a submarine and destroyers variant. |
--
John Hall "Do you have cornflakes in America?"
"Well, actually, they're American."
"So what brings you to Britain then if you have cornflakes already?"
Bill Bryson: "Notes from a Small Island" |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:45 pm
Post subject: Re: [F] Meet in Vancouver? |
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In uk.culture.language.english Brian {Hamilton Kelly} <bhk@dsl.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | You mean ligature. It's a diphthong in any case, since it's pronounced
[ai], not [a-e]. But the ligature is optional; the Romans, when they did
use it, did so only to save space, not, like later languages, to denote
a special "combination" of a and e. In Latin, ae is as valid as æ.
But, in Anglo-Saxon, the letter æ is called "æsc" and is pronounced as a
short 'a', as in the name of the tree-species "ash", (which is what "æsc"
actually means).
Sure, but that is important when you spell Æthelfrid, not when you spell
Caesar (or Cæsar, which in fact looks odd to me).
Quite: I remain unconvinced that the Romans, /per se/, ligatured "ae" at
all; not that we see much of their minuscule characters anyway. I
suspect that writing "æ" for "ae" in Latin words is an affectation,
perhaps picked from mediævalists [sic!] and monks, who also had to write
the letter "ash" in Anglo-Saxon and Old English[1] manuscripts.
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Or possibly just a printing custom. Certain Greek texts from the
late 18th century and early 19th century use a vast number of
ligatures.
Mediaeval Latin often tended to convert 'ae' to 'e'.
Axel |
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Graycat
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:27 pm
Post subject: Re: [F] Meet in Vancouver? |
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On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:58:39 +0100, "Nick Wagg" <naw@transcendata.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | "Brian {Hamilton Kelly}" <bhk@dsl.co.uk> wrote in message
news:20050616.2007.60242snz@dsl.co.uk...
On Thursday, in article <42b1cba8.15175796@news.xs4all.nl
[Of course, it's only because of the Danes & Norwegians that we even HAVE
the character in our ISO Latin 1 alphabet; they use it for yet a third
different sound, namely an umlauted "a", which the Swedes, Germans, etc.,
represent as "ä".]
However, "ä" is often spelled "ae" in situations where it is difficult to
reproduce an umlaut or where it would look out of place, such as
in a crossword, or spelling over an audio link using a phonetic
alphabet.
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Er, never in a swedish crossword, I assure you.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/index.html
The Oswalds - premier Discworld casting awards
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Meet in Vancouver? |
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On Saturday, in article
<22Vse.19191$K5.13997@newsfe4-win.ntli.net>
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com "John Briggs" wrote:
| Quote: | Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
On 17 Jun, in article
1118999818.908206.211970@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
danilla@pisem.net "danilla" wrote:
Arthur Hagen wrote:
I'm not sure about ð -- dh? (pronounced somewhat like th in thus)
John Tolkien, for example, used to spell it that way. I mean dh
The digraph "dh" is a very useful addition to the English language;
sadly, few understand its implications. (Ditto the few that
understand that the Welsh "dd" represents the same phoneme.)
That would appear to be a sense of 'useful' with which I was not previously
familiar :-)
I see no point to rendering the eth as 'dh'.
|
It's redundant for native speakers of English, who somehow (osmosis?)
learn the difference between the digraph "th" in "thin" and that in
"then"? However, using "dh" instead would be very useful for those for
whom English is not a mother tongue (although doubtless Francophones
would continue to say /z/, and Germans /t/).
Of course, "dh" doesn't always represent edh; e.g. Madhur Jaffrey :-)
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:59 am
Post subject: Re: Meet in Vancouver? |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
| Quote: | On Saturday, in article
22Vse.19191$K5.13997@newsfe4-win.ntli.net
john.briggs4@ntlworld.com "John Briggs" wrote:
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
On 17 Jun, in article
1118999818.908206.211970@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
danilla@pisem.net "danilla" wrote:
Arthur Hagen wrote:
I'm not sure about ð -- dh? (pronounced somewhat like th in thus)
John Tolkien, for example, used to spell it that way. I mean dh
The digraph "dh" is a very useful addition to the English language;
sadly, few understand its implications. (Ditto the few that
understand that the Welsh "dd" represents the same phoneme.)
That would appear to be a sense of 'useful' with which I was not
previously familiar :-)
I see no point to rendering the eth as 'dh'.
It's redundant for native speakers of English, who somehow (osmosis?)
learn the difference between the digraph "th" in "thin" and that in
"then"? However, using "dh" instead would be very useful for those
for whom English is not a mother tongue (although doubtless
Francophones would continue to say /z/, and Germans /t/).
Of course, "dh" doesn't always represent edh; e.g. Madhur Jaffrey 
|
Well, I personally have no objection to the use of the thorn, eth, ash and
yogh (don't confuse with the ezh!) - but I suspect I may be in a minority
--
John Briggs |
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Giles Todd
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:18 am
Post subject: Re: [F] NL Gamesmeet 5.0 Meet Report |
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On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 10:30:26 +0100, Molly Mockford
<nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | IIRC, there was one "fox" and eight "geese". The fox could move
forwards or backwards; the geese could only move forwards (always
diagonally, sticking to the same colour squares). The object of the fox
was to get through the flock of geese to the other side, and the object
of the geese was to surround the fox and immobilise him.
|
That sets lots of bells ringing. Thank you.
Giles |
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