| Author |
Message |
Dave Hillam
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 8:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Crossposting can be good [was: Re: Valley-girl speech] |
|
|
Molly Mockford wrote in uk.culture.language.english on Fri, 13 May
2005 08:17:18 +0100 MID<DZSIaVG+RFhCFwL7@molly.mockford>:
| Quote: | In this particular case, "Valley Girl" is not an
expression in common use in the UK, so I am puzzled as to why you
included uk.culture.language.english unless you would like to discuss
that particular phrase. Is it similar to "Essex girl"?
|
It's been taken in parody in South Wales, a friend of mine refers to
herself as a Valleys Girl: "When I was twelve, I wanted to go to
ballet classes. But my mam told me judo would be more use in Merthyr."
--
baby-sitter
- one who mounts guard over a baby to
relieve the usual attendant
Chambers 20th Century Dictionary
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Dave Hillam
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 8:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Clarification of a "Baseball Joke", please |
|
|
John Dawkins wrote in uk.culture.language.english on Wed, 18 May 2005
14:47:59 -0700 MID<artfldodgr-11968F.14475918052005@individual.net>:
| Quote: | (Years ago, the Baltimore Orioles had a large first baseman by the name
of Boog Powell. The fans would chant his name ("Booooooog") when he
came to bat, and the radio or television announcer would invariably
advise the listening audience that what they were hearing were not
"boo"s, but Mr. Powell's name.)
|
Same happens now in English football, to an Estonian goalkeeper by the
name of Mart Poom (Derby, now Sunderland).
--
baby-sitter
- one who mounts guard over a baby to
relieve the usual attendant
Chambers 20th Century Dictionary |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 11:12 pm
Post subject: Re: RFD: create unmoderated newsgroup uk.politics.id-cards |
|
|
On Friday, in article
<429786b9$1$38045$bed64819@news.gradwell.net>
postmaster@[127.0.0.1] "Dave Hillam" wrote:
| Quote: | Chris Croughton wrote in uk.net.news.config on Fri, 27 May 2005
10:48:22 +0100 MID<slrnd9dr76.5lk.chris@ccserver.keris.net>:
On Fri, 27 May 2005 07:14:18 +0100, Dave Hillam
postmaster@[> wrote:
More to the point, my original question upthread was:
BTW does anyone actually say "and your ilk" in real life?
rather than the origin of the word?
Yes, several people I know...
Interesting, I've honestly never come across this before, unless
someone was deliberately using what I'd regard as stilted language,
forsooth.
My own exhaustive research (asking SWMBO) suggests that variants of
the phrase are in common use in Scotland. Which was news to me, maybe
I don't use the right bars.
... and they aren't Scottish.
Sorry, I meant on the regular occasions I'm north of the border. Down
sarf it's all pubs.
|
Since I've been needlessly extending a thread about heraldry elsewhere in
the group, I could perhaps mention that one of the first books that I
ever read about heraldry, when I was a schoolkid back in the 1950s, was
written by (or perhaps just had a foreword by?) "Iain Moncreiff of Easter
Moncreiff" (sp?) who was only named as such in full the once, and
thereafter always called "Iain Moncreiff of that ilk" (including as a
subscription beneath his signature).
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:07 pm
Post subject: Re: [F] Meet in Vancouver? |
|
|
On Thursday, in article <42b1cba8.15175796@news.xs4all.nl>
rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl "Richard Bos" wrote:
| Quote: | bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote:
On Tuesday, in article <42af4cc8.4635796@news.xs4all.nl
rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl "Richard Bos" wrote:
You mean ligature. It's a diphthong in any case, since it's pronounced
[ai], not [a-e]. But the ligature is optional; the Romans, when they did
use it, did so only to save space, not, like later languages, to denote
a special "combination" of a and e. In Latin, ae is as valid as æ.
But, in Anglo-Saxon, the letter æ is called "æsc" and is pronounced as a
short 'a', as in the name of the tree-species "ash", (which is what "æsc"
actually means).
Sure, but that is important when you spell Æthelfrid, not when you spell
Caesar (or Cæsar, which in fact looks odd to me).
|
Quite: I remain unconvinced that the Romans, /per se/, ligatured "ae" at
all; not that we see much of their minuscule characters anyway. I
suspect that writing "æ" for "ae" in Latin words is an affectation,
perhaps picked from mediævalists [sic!] and monks, who also had to write
the letter "ash" in Anglo-Saxon and Old English[1] manuscripts.
[Of course, it's only because of the Danes & Norwegians that we even HAVE
the character in our ISO Latin 1 alphabet; they use it for yet a third
different sound, namely an umlauted "a", which the Swedes, Germans, etc.,
represent as "ä".]
[1] I'm unsure; was it still used in Middle English as well? (Thread
cross-posted into uk.culture.language.english from afp; feel free to set
follow-ups to one or the other group: I have not done so.)
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Paul Burke
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:32 pm
Post subject: Re: [F] Meet in Vancouver? |
|
|
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
| Quote: | But, in Anglo-Saxon, the letter æ is called "æsc" and is pronounced as a
short 'a', as in the name of the tree-species "ash", (which is what "æsc"
actually means).
|
'ae' seems to have been pronounced both ways: Aelfred became Alfred,
Aethelred became Ethelred. Dialect, or perhaps just 'one of those things
everybody knows'?
My favourite kings of the time were Ethylhead the Unsteady and Cnut the
Dyslexic.
Paul Burke |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nick Wagg
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:58 pm
Post subject: Re: [F] Meet in Vancouver? |
|
|
"Brian {Hamilton Kelly}" <bhk@dsl.co.uk> wrote in message
news:20050616.2007.60242snz@dsl.co.uk...
| Quote: | On Thursday, in article <42b1cba8.15175796@news.xs4all.nl
[Of course, it's only because of the Danes & Norwegians that we even HAVE
the character in our ISO Latin 1 alphabet; they use it for yet a third
different sound, namely an umlauted "a", which the Swedes, Germans, etc.,
represent as "ä".]
|
However, "ä" is often spelled "ae" in situations where it is difficult to
reproduce an umlaut or where it would look out of place, such as
in a crossword, or spelling over an audio link using a phonetic
alphabet. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Arthur Hagen
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:52 pm
Post subject: Re: [F] Meet in Vancouver? |
|
|
Nick Wagg <naw@transcendata.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
However, "ä" is often spelled "ae" in situations where it is
difficult to reproduce an umlaut or where it would look out of place,
such as
in a crossword, or spelling over an audio link using a phonetic
alphabet.
|
.... or when moving to countries that don't use the Scandinavian letters
or German umlauts.
ø and ö becomes oe (pronounced like burn, learn, nerve)
æ and ä becomes ae (pronounced somewhat like hand, bad)
å becomes aa (pronounced like awe, talk, born)
þ becomes th (pronounced somewhat like th in think)
I'm not sure about ð -- dh? (pronounced somewhat like th in thus)
Unfortunately, the digraphs are falling out of use, probably due to
ignorance. Thus we see horrible "translations" like "Skanska" and
"Hag"[1] instead of Skaanska and Haag.
[1] Try telling your wife that you want to get her a hag chair.
Regards,
--
*Art |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
danilla
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Meet in Vancouver? |
|
|
Arthur Hagen wrote:
| Quote: | ø and ö becomes oe (pronounced like burn, learn, nerve)
æ and ä becomes ae (pronounced somewhat like hand, bad)
|
In Icelandic, by the way, ae is pronounced like in high, tight
| Quote: | å becomes aa (pronounced like awe, talk, born)
þ becomes th (pronounced somewhat like th in think)
I'm not sure about ð -- dh? (pronounced somewhat like th in thus)
|
John Tolkien, for example, used to spell it that way. I mean dh |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Michael J. Schülke
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:39 pm
Post subject: Re: [F] Meet in Vancouver? |
|
|
Nick Wagg wrote:
| Quote: | However, "ä" is often spelled "ae" in situations where it is difficult to
reproduce an umlaut or where it would look out of place, such as
in a crossword,
|
Yes.
| Quote: | or spelling over an audio link using a phonetic alphabet.
|
That depends, though -- there are no umlauts in the NATO alphabet, but
there are national phonetic alphabets that do contain them. For some
reason (probably historic) there even are three slightly different
phonetic alphabets for German -- German, Austrian and Swiss.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funkalphabet
Michael |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Michael J. Schülke
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:44 pm
Post subject: Re: [F] Meet in Vancouver? |
|
|
Arthur Hagen wrote:
| Quote: | ... or when moving to countries that don't use the Scandinavian letters
or German umlauts.
|
Be careful with that though -- when I moved to the UK, I tried to open a
bank account, spelling my last name "Schuelke" on the form. Of course,
it was spelt "Schülke" on my (German) ID card, and "Schulke" on my
(British) student ID card. The bank person made quite a fuss about
"deliberately misspelling my name"...
Michael |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Richard Bos
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:11 pm
Post subject: Re: [F] Meet in Vancouver? |
|
|
bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) wrote:
| Quote: | On Thursday, in article <42b1cba8.15175796@news.xs4all.nl
rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl "Richard Bos" wrote:
Sure, but that is important when you spell Æthelfrid, not when you spell
Caesar (or Cæsar, which in fact looks odd to me).
Quite: I remain unconvinced that the Romans, /per se/, ligatured "ae" at
all; not that we see much of their minuscule characters anyway.
|
Roman cursives tend to be so illegible that I generally can't for the
life of me tell whether two letters written in close proximity are a
ligature or just sloppy writing. Generally, in fact, I can't read them
at all.
The Romans themselves seem not to have used many ligatures in their
monumental capitals, which were after all highly formal and not to be
messed with; nor in their rustica, which is graphically less suited to
them; but quite a few, including AV, VA, NT, HR, and even <any>-inside-
C, in the quadrata. Unfortunately I can't find an AE, even unligatured,
in the examples I have to hand.
| Quote: | I suspect that writing "æ" for "ae" in Latin words is an affectation,
perhaps picked from mediævalists [sic!] and monks, who also had to write
the letter "ash" in Anglo-Saxon and Old English[1] manuscripts.
|
It seems to have been more popular in the uncial scripts, which are more
suited to it. Those scripts started well before the Middle Ages, but I
don't know whether the AE ligature did.
| Quote: | [1] I'm unsure; was it still used in Middle English as well? (Thread
cross-posted into uk.culture.language.english from afp; feel free to set
follow-ups to one or the other group: I have not done so.)
|
I can't find an ae in any form in a very quick rummage through Chaucer,
in any case. This may be misleading; Chaucer is lateish ME, and
Southern. Northern may be different in this respect, as may earlier
samples.
Richard |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nigel Stapley
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:52 pm
Post subject: Re: [F] Meet in Vancouver? |
|
|
Michael J. Schülke wrote:
| Quote: | Arthur Hagen wrote:
... or when moving to countries that don't use the Scandinavian letters
or German umlauts.
Be careful with that though -- when I moved to the UK, I tried to open a
bank account, spelling my last name "Schuelke" on the form. Of course,
it was spelt "Schülke" on my (German) ID card, and "Schulke" on my
(British) student ID card. The bank person made quite a fuss about
"deliberately misspelling my name"...
|
I hope you told him/her to "föck åff" and walked out... :-)
--
Regards
Nigel Stapley
www.judgemental.plus.com
<reply-to will bounce> |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Michael J. Schülke
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:04 am
Post subject: Re: [F] Meet in Vancouver? |
|
|
Nigel Stapley wrote:
| Quote: | Be careful with that though -- when I moved to the UK, I tried to open a
bank account, spelling my last name "Schuelke" on the form. Of course,
it was spelt "Schülke" on my (German) ID card, and "Schulke" on my
(British) student ID card. The bank person made quite a fuss about
"deliberately misspelling my name"...
I hope you told him/her to "föck åff" and walked out... 
|
Not quite. I waited until he had finished (meanwhile chewing away on the
free coffee and donuts the bank had thoughtfully provided to lure
students in -- it was an on-campus branch, at the start of the academic
year), then explained it to him. He changed the spelling to something he
was happy with, and I opened the account.
Walking out would have meant missing out on the 25 UKP (IIRC) bonus for
opening a student's account...
Michael |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:05 am
Post subject: Re: [F] NL Gamesmeet 5.0 Meet Report |
|
|
On Friday, in article <42b2f4ac.9339046@news.xs4all.nl>
rlb@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl "Richard Bos" wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, that's called the Game of Goose in English, dixit OED. And it isn't
just Traditional Dutch, it's Traditional European, with varieties
apparently all over the place. If you had one with "broken wing", that's
modern; the original hazards were more like "the toll bridge", "fell in
the well" and "the prison". And you forgot the number 63; it is Very
Significant, but don't ask me of what.
|
I've just had a look in Chambers' Dictionary, and under the headword
/goose/ it does indeed list "a game of chance once common in England, in
which the players moved counters on a board, with the right to a double
move on reaching a picture of a goose (obs.)"
Does OED /really/ list the "Game of Goose"? This seems very un-English
to me. "Goose" I could accept (although until this thread not have
understood one iota).
XP to uk.culture.language.english; please feel free to set follow-ups to
one group or the other.
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:33 am
Post subject: Re: Meet in Vancouver? |
|
|
On 17 Jun, in article
<1118999818.908206.211970@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
danilla@pisem.net "danilla" wrote:
| Quote: | Arthur Hagen wrote:
I'm not sure about ð -- dh? (pronounced somewhat like th in thus)
John Tolkien, for example, used to spell it that way. I mean dh
|
Indeed; also, when I first visited Cyprus (many years ago now) road-
signs used to transliterate the Greek "dhelta" as "dh" (since the ancient
D has become a voiced TH). Since 1994, or thereabouts, the idiot
minister responsible for such signage has decreed a letter-by-letter
transliteration, rather than a phonetic one: so that, for instance, the
village whose name is pronounced as "Payea" is written as "Pegeia".
(They also changed the transliteration which was formerly Paphos [which
had been used since Roman times] into Pafos: supposedly because too many
German tourists were pronouncing the place-name as Pap-hos: which seems
unlikely, considering that Germans usually know that "ph" is an "f"
rather than an aspirated "p".)
The digraph "dh" is a very useful addition to the English language;
sadly, few understand its implications. (Ditto the few that understand
that the Welsh "dd" represents the same phoneme.)
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in