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Jim Ward
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:54 pm
Post subject: idées fixes |
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Why is idées fixes the plural of idée fixe? This is not right! It
should be idées fixe!
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Linz
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:17 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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"Jim Ward" <tomcatpolka@NyOaShPoAoM.com> wrote in message
news:vh5vo0lrn3574oc5at3gabad2q8c0c6k77@4ax.com...
| Quote: | Why is idées fixes the plural of idée fixe? This is not right! It
should be idées fixe!
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Because in French the adjective is marked for plural too. |
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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:28 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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"Jim Ward" <tomcatpolka@NyOaShPoAoM.com> wrote in message
news:vh5vo0lrn3574oc5at3gabad2q8c0c6k77@4ax.com...
| Quote: | Why is idées fixes the plural of idée fixe? This is not right! It
should be idées fixe!
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Because "idées fixes" is the correct plural in French, which uses plural
forms for adjectives as well as nouns. There are some French expressions
that are pluralized differently in English -- "porte cocheres", for
instance, or "deja vus" (which isn't even a noun in French). But "idée
fixes" isn't very common.
In any event, it would never be "idées fixe" in either language.
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Don A. Gilmore
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:30 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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"Jim Ward" <tomcatpolka@NyOaShPoAoM.com> wrote in message
news:vh5vo0lrn3574oc5at3gabad2q8c0c6k77@4ax.com...
| Quote: | Why is idées fixes the plural of idée fixe? This is not right! It
should be idées fixe!
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"Fixe" is an adjective and adjectives are pluralized in French when coupled
with a plural noun.
Don
Kansas City |
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Jim Ward
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:43 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:17:31 -0000, "Linz"
<spam@nospam.lindsayendell.org.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | Because in French the adjective is marked for plural too.
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Well, sacré bleu! |
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John W. Hall
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:44 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:30:44 -0600, "Don A. Gilmore"
<eromlignodNOSPM@kc.rr.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "Fixe" is an adjective and adjectives are pluralized in French when coupled
with a plural noun.
|
Perhaps we should add such complications to English also, then it
might become as successful as French is for international
understanding.
--
John W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net>
Cochrane, Alberta, Canada.
"Helping People Prosper in the Information Age" |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:17 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 10:54:45 -0500, Jim Ward wrote:
| Quote: | Why is idées fixes the plural of idée fixe? This is not right! It
should be idées fixe!
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And the plural of "cul-de-sac" should be "cul-de-sacs", shouldn't it?
(smiling face)
Bye, FB
--
"Enjoying yourself, Elfine?"
"It's going to be such fun!"
"No, it's going to be amusing or diverting, not such fun, darling."
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film) |
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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:11 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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"FB" <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message
news:9i2ola6027gr.vfz90fp5fytx$.dlg@40tude.net...
| Quote: | On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 10:54:45 -0500, Jim Ward wrote:
Why is idées fixes the plural of idée fixe? This is not right! It
should be idées fixe!
And the plural of "cul-de-sac" should be "cul-de-sacs", shouldn't it?
(smiling face)
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Um, yes, actually. But by his reasoning it should be culs-de-sac. |
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Christopher Green
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:00 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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Jim Ward <tomcatpolka@NyOaShPoAoM.com> wrote in message news:<vh5vo0lrn3574oc5at3gabad2q8c0c6k77@4ax.com>...
| Quote: | Why is idées fixes the plural of idée fixe? This is not right! It
should be idées fixe!
|
Because it's French? French plural adjectives usually take an -s or
-es, so "fixes" rather than "fixe".
--
Chris Green |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:12 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:11:20 -0600, Jess Askin wrote:
| Quote: | "FB" <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message
news:9i2ola6027gr.vfz90fp5fytx$.dlg@40tude.net...
On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 10:54:45 -0500, Jim Ward wrote:
Why is idées fixes the plural of idée fixe? This is not right! It
should be idées fixe!
And the plural of "cul-de-sac" should be "cul-de-sacs", shouldn't it?
(smiling face)
Um, yes, actually. But by his reasoning it should be culs-de-sac.
|
It is, actually, "culs-de-sac", though Merriam-Webster registers both.
Perhaps it seems logical to me as Italian is rather similar to French.
Bye, FB
--
Locked from the inside. That can only mean one thing, and I don't know what
it is.
(Murder by Death) |
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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:26 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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"FB" <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message
news:2c5931ku0oxp$.1adqmg8nxavdd.dlg@40tude.net...
| Quote: | On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:11:20 -0600, Jess Askin wrote:
"FB" <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message
news:9i2ola6027gr.vfz90fp5fytx$.dlg@40tude.net...
On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 10:54:45 -0500, Jim Ward wrote:
Why is idées fixes the plural of idée fixe? This is not right! It
should be idées fixe!
And the plural of "cul-de-sac" should be "cul-de-sacs", shouldn't it?
(smiling face)
Um, yes, actually. But by his reasoning it should be culs-de-sac.
|
Actually, looking this over again, I don't have any idea what he would use
for the plural form.
| Quote: | It is, actually, "culs-de-sac", though Merriam-Webster registers both.
Perhaps it seems logical to me as Italian is rather similar to French.
|
Certainly, and if we were discussing French usage, you'd be absolutely
correct. But English has a nasty habit of not following the rules of other
languages when it borrows words from them ("When I looked around, a ravioli
fell off my spoon.").
Since I'm a descriptivist, I prefer Google's opinion to Merriam-Webster's:
it shows 47,400 hits for "cul de sacs," and only 3390 for "culs de sac."
Bear in mind that "cul de sac" is an everyday word, at least in the United
States, so it is subject to rougher handling than "idée fixe" which is still
somewhat exotic:
"We live on a cul de sac; in fact, there are many cul de sacs in this
neighborhood."
My Italian-English dictionary gives "vicolo cieco" as the Italian
equivalent. Is that correct? Would the plural be "vicoli ciechi?" |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:37 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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Jess Askin rakstija:
| Quote: | "FB" wrote
Jess Askin wrote:
"FB" wrote:
Jim Ward wrote:
Why is idées fixes the plural of idée fixe? This is not right! It
should be idées fixe!
And the plural of "cul-de-sac" should be "cul-de-sacs", shouldn't
it? (smiling face)
Um, yes, actually. But by his reasoning it should be culs-de-sac.
Actually, looking this over again, I don't have any idea what he
would use for the plural form.
It is, actually, "culs-de-sac", though Merriam-Webster registers
both. Perhaps it seems logical to me as Italian is rather similar to
French.
Certainly, and if we were discussing French usage, you'd be absolutely
correct. But English has a nasty habit of not following the rules of
other languages when it borrows words from them ("When I looked
around, a ravioli fell off my spoon.").
Since I'm a descriptivist, I prefer Google's opinion to
Merriam-Webster's: it shows 47,400 hits for "cul de sacs," and only
3390 for "culs de sac." Bear in mind that "cul de sac" is an everyday
word, at least in the United States, so it is subject to rougher
handling than "idée fixe" which is still somewhat exotic:
"We live on a cul de sac; in fact, there are many cul de sacs in this
neighborhood."
|
Don't look now, but all your hyphens gave gotten lost (except for one).
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:31 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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"Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:2vaor3F2h80i2U1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: |
Jess Askin rakstija:
"FB" wrote
Jess Askin wrote:
"FB" wrote:
Jim Ward wrote:
Why is idées fixes the plural of idée fixe? This is not right! It
should be idées fixe!
And the plural of "cul-de-sac" should be "cul-de-sacs", shouldn't
it? (smiling face)
Um, yes, actually. But by his reasoning it should be culs-de-sac.
Actually, looking this over again, I don't have any idea what he
would use for the plural form.
It is, actually, "culs-de-sac", though Merriam-Webster registers
both. Perhaps it seems logical to me as Italian is rather similar to
French.
Certainly, and if we were discussing French usage, you'd be absolutely
correct. But English has a nasty habit of not following the rules of
other languages when it borrows words from them ("When I looked
around, a ravioli fell off my spoon.").
Since I'm a descriptivist, I prefer Google's opinion to
Merriam-Webster's: it shows 47,400 hits for "cul de sacs," and only
3390 for "culs de sac." Bear in mind that "cul de sac" is an everyday
word, at least in the United States, so it is subject to rougher
handling than "idée fixe" which is still somewhat exotic:
"We live on a cul de sac; in fact, there are many cul de sacs in this
neighborhood."
Don't look now, but all your hyphens gave gotten lost (except for one).
|
Between Merriam and Webster? |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:47 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:26:49 -0600, Jess Askin wrote:
| Quote: | Certainly, and if we were discussing French usage, you'd be absolutely
correct. But English has a nasty habit of not following the rules of other
languages when it borrows words from them
|
I was positive the only plural form was "culs-de-sac", then I thought I'd
look it up on the Merriam-Webster's... I think I'll keep using
"culs-de-sac", since to me its meaning ("bottom-of-sack",
"bottoms-of-sack") is too evident. Of course, if the only plural were
"cul-de-sacs", I would use that.
| Quote: | ("When I looked around, a ravioli fell off my spoon.").
|
I know. I'd prefer "one raviolo, two raviolos". Perhaps "a dish of
ravioli", as if "ravioli" were a whole. I know you only use "ravioli",
though, and so will I when speaking English.
| Quote: | My Italian-English dictionary gives "vicolo cieco" as the Italian
equivalent. Is that correct?
|
Yes.
| Quote: | Would the plural be "vicoli ciechi?"
|
Yes, it is.
Bye, FB
--
"The doctors found out that Bunbury could not live, that is what I mean¡Xso
Bunbury died."
"He seems to have had great confidence in the opinion of his physicians."
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde) |
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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:25 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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"FB" <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message
news:t9kt7427ali5.ejnskuyoixss$.dlg@40tude.net...
| Quote: | On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:26:49 -0600, Jess Askin wrote:
Certainly, and if we were discussing French usage, you'd be absolutely
correct. But English has a nasty habit of not following the rules of
other
languages when it borrows words from them
I was positive the only plural form was "culs-de-sac", then I thought I'd
look it up on the Merriam-Webster's... I think I'll keep using
"culs-de-sac", since to me its meaning ("bottom-of-sack",
"bottoms-of-sack") is too evident. Of course, if the only plural were
"cul-de-sacs", I would use that.
|
It's certainly not wrong to use "culs-de-sac," it's really just a matter of
taste.
| Quote: | ("When I looked around, a ravioli fell off my spoon.").
I know. I'd prefer "one raviolo, two raviolos". Perhaps "a dish of
ravioli", as if "ravioli" were a whole.
I know you only use "ravioli",
though, and so will I when speaking English.
|
Researching in Google, it appears that English-speaking people aren't
terribly comfortable talking about any type of pasta in the singular. You do
get hits for "one ravioli" and "one tortellini," but not very many. "One
spaghetti" doesn't score any hits to speak of, at least in the sense "a
spaghetto" -- "a strand of spaghetti" would be the likeliest singular form.
OTOH, "a biscotti" is a clear winner over "a biscotto." |
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