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Jim Ward
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:16 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:18:57 +0100, Serge Paccalin
<sp@mailclub.no.spam.net.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: | That's funny. 'Cul-de-sac' sound gross to some Frenchpeople since 'cul'
means 'arse'. They would use 'impasse' instead.
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Speaking of French, I was watching a French movie, and the streets
were marked with 'payant' - does that mean pay parking, like metered
parking? |
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Jim Ward
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:16 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:40:40 -0600, "Don A. Gilmore"
<eromlignodNOSPM@kc.rr.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I'd hate to live on a one-way, dead end street.
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That's life. |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:16 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:34:32 -0600, Jess Askin wrote:
| Quote: | "FB" <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message
news:1wr2uuzxjct7e$.bo263qtkqx33$.dlg@40tude.net...
On 10 Nov 2004 03:01:12 -0800, mb wrote:
Which suddenly reminds me after so many years of a parallel,
independent construction in some provincial poem detailing someone's
charms (probably not verbatim, considering the time:
"...? ...? la bagascia
la gh'eva la ganascia
in d'on monton de grass spetascià
ch'el parea'l cuu d'on sac de ruud"
It happens, or appears, to be written in my dialect.
Milan el po' fa e'l pò dì, ma el po' minga l'acqua in vin convertì.
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You're a Milanese incognito!
Bye, FB
--
"Is this Miss Prism a female of repellent aspect, remotely connected with
education?" "She is the most cultivated of ladies, and the very picture of
respectability" "It is obviously the same person".
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde) |
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mb
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:16 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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FB <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message news:<1wr2uuzxjct7e$.bo263qtkqx33$.dlg@40tude.net>...
| Quote: | On 10 Nov 2004 03:01:12 -0800, mb wrote:
Which suddenly reminds me after so many years of a parallel,
independent construction in some provincial poem detailing someone's
charms (probably not verbatim, considering the time:
"...? ...? la bagascia
la gh'eva la ganascia
in d'on monton de grass spetascià
ch'el parea'l cuu d'on sac de ruud"
It happens, or appears, to be written in my dialect. [1]
|
It was, I think, a spoof from from the late Carlo Bernasconi,
Mendrisiense. Probably it's my orthography that makes it look Meneghin
[1].
[1] "another language", this time too? |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:16 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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On 10 Nov 2004 10:17:58 -0800, jerry_friedman@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: | FB wrote:
On 10 Nov 2004 03:01:12 -0800, mb wrote:
[...]
"...? ...? la bagascia
la gh'eva la ganascia
in d'on monton de grass spetascià
ch'el parea'l cuu d'on sac de ruud"
It happens, or appears, to be written in my dialect. [1]
[1] Dialects are not varieties of Italian, but just different
languages.
Just out of curiosity, what language is that poem in, and what language
is yours, FB?
|
I'm Italian, and that poem is written in the Milanese dialect. Don't infer
that people talk like that in Milan.
Italian is the language spoken throughout Italy. Dialects were spoken by a
lot of people, say, 50 years ago. Now everybody speaks Italian, and
someone, chiefly the elderly, also speak dialect. I think there are very
few people who only speak their dialect.
I can understand it (I wouldn't if someone talked in pure dialect), but
can't speak it very well.
| Quote: | Anyway, I can tell you're wrong. I can't understand standard Italian,
and I can't understand that poem (except that someone is such a pile of
fat that his or her ass looks like a sack of something), so that poem
must be in a variety of Italian. QED.
|
Hmmm, flawless...
Bye, FB
--
L'importante è che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri) |
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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:06 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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"Serge Paccalin" <sp@mailclub.no.spam.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:1mya7kzxlbaq$.dlg@canttouchthis-127.0.0.1...
| Quote: | Le mercredi 10 novembre 2004 à 02:15:48, Jess Askin a écrit dans
alt.usage.english :
Cul de sacs are typically found in newer housing developments (since
about
1970); the developers may have thought it sounded classier than "dead
end."
That's funny. 'Cul-de-sac' sound gross to some Frenchpeople since 'cul'
means 'arse'. They would use 'impasse' instead.
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Perhaps, but the HarperCollins Robert French-English dictionary lists both
"cul-de-sac" and "impasse" as French translations for English "cul-de-sac." |
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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:06 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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"FB" <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message
news:sonpmkgpukbz.36pauhatye9b$.dlg@40tude.net...
| Quote: | On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:34:32 -0600, Jess Askin wrote:
"FB" <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message
news:1wr2uuzxjct7e$.bo263qtkqx33$.dlg@40tude.net...
On 10 Nov 2004 03:01:12 -0800, mb wrote:
Which suddenly reminds me after so many years of a parallel,
independent construction in some provincial poem detailing someone's
charms (probably not verbatim, considering the time:
"...? ...? la bagascia
la gh'eva la ganascia
in d'on monton de grass spetascià
ch'el parea'l cuu d'on sac de ruud"
It happens, or appears, to be written in my dialect.
Milan el po' fa e'l pò dì, ma el po' minga l'acqua in vin convertì.
You're a Milanese incognito!
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Solo mi divertivo col Googlio. |
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Christopher Green
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:58 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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Jim Ward <tomcatpolka@NyOaShPoAoM.com> wrote in message news:<ms45p0dic8f1sfjou8l4k4jtp9najikm6c@4ax.com>...
| Quote: | On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:18:57 +0100, Serge Paccalin
sp@mailclub.no.spam.net.invalid> wrote:
That's funny. 'Cul-de-sac' sound gross to some Frenchpeople since 'cul'
means 'arse'. They would use 'impasse' instead.
Speaking of French, I was watching a French movie, and the streets
were marked with 'payant' - does that mean pay parking, like metered
parking?
|
Exactly. Either meters or a time-stamped permit dispenser (horodateur).
--
Chris Green |
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mb
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:03 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote
| Quote: | I was familiar with both cul-de-sacs and dead-end streets (I lived on
a cul-de-sac in my teens) and I don't consider them the same thing at
all. A dead end goes straight until it ends and then stops. A
cul-de-sac, by contrast, ends in a widened area designed to allow a
vehicle to turn around without backing up.
|
Ah. Thanks for the info. So we also have a substantial, specialized
post-borrowing semantic drift, too.
| Quote: |
Both cul-de-sacs and dead-end streets are wide enough for two-way
traffic, while an alley, at least where I grew up, is not. Alleys are
narrow throughways designed for service vehicles (e.g., garbage trucks
or delivery trucks). They weren't, I believe, actually "one-way", but
whoever got in first got to assert the direction. |
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mb
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:03 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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"jerry friedman@yahoo.com" <jerry friedman@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1100110678.519375.39980@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>...
| Quote: | [1] Dialects are not varieties of Italian, but just different
languages.
Just out of curiosity, what language is that poem in, and what language
is yours, FB?
Anyway, I can tell you're wrong. I can't understand standard Italian,
and I can't understand that poem (except that someone is such a pile of
fat that his or her ass looks like a sack of something), so that poem
must be in a variety of Italian. QED.
|
Thing is, in places like Italy etc where local language is (now
progressing to has been) such an important part of everyday, "dialect"
gets a general meaning of local language, "language" that of the
regional or national standard, and we always necessarily end up in
those discussions where everyone discusses using words endowed with
very personal meanings, and what's new?
Anyway, the doggerel said "... that slut, whose chin buried in a
mountain of disorderly fat looked like the bottom of a trash bag"
--cul de sac. |
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Serge Paccalin
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:03 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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Le jeudi 11 novembre 2004 à 07:58:33, Christopher Green a écrit dans
alt.usage.english :
| Quote: | Jim Ward <tomcatpolka@NyOaShPoAoM.com> wrote in message news:<ms45p0dic8f1sfjou8l4k4jtp9najikm6c@4ax.com>...
On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:18:57 +0100, Serge Paccalin
sp@mailclub.no.spam.net.invalid> wrote:
That's funny. 'Cul-de-sac' sound gross to some Frenchpeople since 'cul'
means 'arse'. They would use 'impasse' instead.
Speaking of French, I was watching a French movie, and the streets
were marked with 'payant' - does that mean pay parking, like metered
parking?
Exactly. Either meters or a time-stamped permit dispenser (horodateur).
|
Yep. In some places you can also buy a monthly permit to park without
limitation in a given neighborhood.
--
___________ 2004-11-11 08:56:38
_/ _ \_`_`_`_) Serge PACCALIN -- sp ad mailclub.net
\ \_L_) Il faut donc que les hommes commencent
-'(__) par n'être pas fanatiques pour mériter
_/___(_) la tolérance. -- Voltaire, 1763 |
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Jerry Friedman
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:08 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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azythos2@hotmail.com (mb) wrote in message news:<668d6151.0411102359.3ce4c86c@posting.google.com>...
| Quote: | "jerry friedman@yahoo.com" <jerry friedman@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1100110678.519375.39980@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>...
[1] Dialects are not varieties of Italian, but just different
languages.
Just out of curiosity, what language is that poem in, and what language
is yours, FB?
Anyway, I can tell you're wrong. I can't understand standard Italian,
and I can't understand that poem (except that someone is such a pile of
fat that his or her ass looks like a sack of something), so that poem
must be in a variety of Italian. QED.
Thing is, in places like Italy etc where local language is (now
progressing to has been) such an important part of everyday, "dialect"
gets a general meaning of local language, "language" that of the
regional or national standard, and we always necessarily end up in
those discussions where everyone discusses using words endowed with
very personal meanings, and what's new?
Anyway, the doggerel said "... that slut, whose chin buried in a
mountain of disorderly fat looked like the bottom of a trash bag"
--cul de sac.
|
Slut--bagascia--baggage--I get it! Who knew that the obsolescent
English "baggage" in this sense might ultimately be from Arabic?
(According the AHD.)
But I should have guessed that you'd been reminded of an exact cognate
of "cul-de-sac".
Anyway, thanks for the translation, and thanks also to FB.
--
Jerry Friedman |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:06 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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On 10 Nov 2004 13:17:12 -0800, mb wrote:
| Quote: | FB <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message news:<1wr2uuzxjct7e$.bo263qtkqx33$.dlg@40tude.net>...
On 10 Nov 2004 03:01:12 -0800, mb wrote:
[...]
"...? ...? la bagascia
la gh'eva la ganascia
in d'on monton de grass spetascià
ch'el parea'l cuu d'on sac de ruud"
It happens, or appears, to be written in my dialect. [1]
It was, I think, a spoof from from the late Carlo Bernasconi,
|
So that dialect is spoken in Italian-speaking Switzerland. There they would
say [berna'Sko:ni], I think.
| Quote: | Mendrisiense. Probably it's my orthography that makes it look Meneghin
[1].
[1] "another language", this time too?
|
I'll try to translate it in Italian, assuming "ruud" really means "trash",
"rubbish":
La bagascia [a]
aveva il mento
in un mucchio (heap) di grasso spiaccicato (whatever this mean)
che sembrava/pareva il fondo di un sacco della spazzatura
[a] wanting to keep this word, though "puttana" or "troia" would be much
commoner and widespread.
A youngster may understand no more than a few words.
Bye, FB
--
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" apparso su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien) |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:06 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 01:07:30 GMT, FB wrote:
| Quote: | On 10 Nov 2004 13:17:12 -0800, mb wrote:
FB <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message news:<1wr2uuzxjct7e$.bo263qtkqx33$.dlg@40tude.net>...
On 10 Nov 2004 03:01:12 -0800, mb wrote:
[...]
"...? ...? la bagascia
la gh'eva la ganascia
in d'on monton de grass spetascià
ch'el parea'l cuu d'on sac de ruud"
[...]
I'll try to translate it in Italian, assuming "ruud" really means "trash",
"rubbish":
La bagascia [a]
aveva il mento
in un mucchio (heap) di grasso spiaccicato (whatever this mean)
|
Oh, I see, he's talking of double chin.
Bye, FB
--
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" apparso su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien) |
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mb
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:05 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) wrote
| Quote: | Slut--bagascia--baggage--I get it! Who knew that the obsolescent
English "baggage" in this sense might ultimately be from Arabic?
(According the AHD.)
|
In fact, looking at the dates of sighting in a good number of North
Mediterranean languages, it could have come via Sabir / Lingua Franca.
Interesting: in Greek, it experienced semantic drift to "wise guy" and
masculinized. |
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