| Author |
Message |
Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:59 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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Jess Askin rakstija:
| Quote: | "Skitt" wrote:
Jess Askin rakstija:
"FB" wrote
Jess Askin wrote:
"FB" wrote:
Jim Ward wrote:
Why is idées fixes the plural of idée fixe? This is not right!
It should be idées fixe!
And the plural of "cul-de-sac" should be "cul-de-sacs", shouldn't
it? (smiling face)
Um, yes, actually. But by his reasoning it should be culs-de-sac.
Actually, looking this over again, I don't have any idea what he
would use for the plural form.
It is, actually, "culs-de-sac", though Merriam-Webster registers
both. Perhaps it seems logical to me as Italian is rather similar
to French.
Certainly, and if we were discussing French usage, you'd be
absolutely correct. But English has a nasty habit of not following
the rules of other languages when it borrows words from them ("When
I looked around, a ravioli fell off my spoon.").
Since I'm a descriptivist, I prefer Google's opinion to
Merriam-Webster's: it shows 47,400 hits for "cul de sacs," and only
3390 for "culs de sac." Bear in mind that "cul de sac" is an
everyday word, at least in the United States, so it is subject to
rougher handling than "idée fixe" which is still somewhat exotic:
"We live on a cul de sac; in fact, there are many cul de sacs in
this neighborhood."
Don't look now, but all your hyphens gave gotten lost (except for
one).
Between Merriam and Webster?
|
OK, go ahead and look.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
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mb
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:06 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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"Jess Askin" <nospam@dontbother.net> wrote
| Quote: | Actually, looking this over again, I don't have any idea what he would use
for the plural form.
It is, actually, "culs-de-sac", though Merriam-Webster registers both.
Perhaps it seems logical to me as Italian is rather similar to French.
Certainly, and if we were discussing French usage, you'd be absolutely
correct. But English has a nasty habit of not following the rules of other
languages when it borrows words from them ("When I looked around, a ravioli
fell off my spoon.").
Since I'm a descriptivist, I prefer Google's opinion to Merriam-Webster's:
it shows 47,400 hits for "cul de sacs," and only 3390 for "culs de sac."
Bear in mind that "cul de sac" is an everyday word, at least in the United
States, so it is subject to rougher handling than "idée fixe" which is still
somewhat exotic:
"We live on a cul de sac; in fact, there are many cul de sacs in this
neighborhood."
|
Would be acceptable as culldesacks, plural of culldesack. Now you
spell it out, I realize what some acquaintances of mine were talking
about. Blind alleys, right? Too rough and proletarian for the genteel
suburban, I imagine. Why he doesn't adapt the spelling (while
respelling a good number of good old English words, also per Google)
is beyond me.
| Quote: | My Italian-English dictionary gives "vicolo cieco" as the Italian
equivalent. Is that correct? Would the plural be "vicoli ciechi?"
|
Of course, it is a noun-and-adjective combo. Cannot follow the rule of
culs-de- sac. |
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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:07 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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"mb" <azythos2@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:668d6151.0411091541.753b424b@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | "Jess Askin" <nospam@dontbother.net> wrote
Actually, looking this over again, I don't have any idea what he would
use
for the plural form.
It is, actually, "culs-de-sac", though Merriam-Webster registers both.
Perhaps it seems logical to me as Italian is rather similar to French.
Certainly, and if we were discussing French usage, you'd be absolutely
correct. But English has a nasty habit of not following the rules of
other
languages when it borrows words from them ("When I looked around, a
ravioli
fell off my spoon.").
Since I'm a descriptivist, I prefer Google's opinion to
Merriam-Webster's:
it shows 47,400 hits for "cul de sacs," and only 3390 for "culs de sac."
Bear in mind that "cul de sac" is an everyday word, at least in the
United
States, so it is subject to rougher handling than "idée fixe" which is
still
somewhat exotic:
"We live on a cul de sac; in fact, there are many cul de sacs in this
neighborhood."
Would be acceptable as culldesacks, plural of culldesack. Now you
spell it out, I realize what some acquaintances of mine were talking
about. Blind alleys, right? Too rough and proletarian for the genteel
suburban, I imagine. Why he doesn't adapt the spelling (while
respelling a good number of good old English words, also per Google)
is beyond me.
|
Cul de sacs are typically found in newer housing developments (since about
1970); the developers may have thought it sounded classier than "dead end."
Kind of like changing real-estate agent to realtor.
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:07 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:15:48 -0600, the renowned "Jess Askin"
<nospam@dontbother.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
"mb" <azythos2@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:668d6151.0411091541.753b424b@posting.google.com...
"Jess Askin" <nospam@dontbother.net> wrote
Actually, looking this over again, I don't have any idea what he would
use
for the plural form.
It is, actually, "culs-de-sac", though Merriam-Webster registers both.
Perhaps it seems logical to me as Italian is rather similar to French.
Certainly, and if we were discussing French usage, you'd be absolutely
correct. But English has a nasty habit of not following the rules of
other
languages when it borrows words from them ("When I looked around, a
ravioli
fell off my spoon.").
Since I'm a descriptivist, I prefer Google's opinion to
Merriam-Webster's:
it shows 47,400 hits for "cul de sacs," and only 3390 for "culs de sac."
Bear in mind that "cul de sac" is an everyday word, at least in the
United
States, so it is subject to rougher handling than "idée fixe" which is
still
somewhat exotic:
"We live on a cul de sac; in fact, there are many cul de sacs in this
neighborhood."
Would be acceptable as culldesacks, plural of culldesack. Now you
spell it out, I realize what some acquaintances of mine were talking
about. Blind alleys, right? Too rough and proletarian for the genteel
suburban, I imagine. Why he doesn't adapt the spelling (while
respelling a good number of good old English words, also per Google)
is beyond me.
Cul de sacs are typically found in newer housing developments (since about
1970); the developers may have thought it sounded classier than "dead end."
Kind of like changing real-estate agent to realtor.
|
Do you have to pay fees to call it a "Cul de Sac®"?
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:07 am
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 20:53:30 -0500, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
| Quote: | Do you have to pay fees to call it a "Cul de Sac®"?
|
Those who do so might want to know "cul" is basically "arse" (absit iniuria
verbis)...
Bye, FB
--
L'importante è che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda
del tuo pianerottolo.
(Lucangel su it.cultura.libri) |
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mb
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:34 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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FB <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message news:<1bnap8ppp39by.573luyj9bps2$.dlg@40tude.net>...
| Quote: | On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 20:53:30 -0500, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
Do you have to pay fees to call it a "Cul de Sac®"?
Those who do so might want to know "cul" is basically "arse" (absit iniuria
verbis)...
|
Which suddenly reminds me after so many years of a parallel,
independent construction in some provincial poem detailing someone's
charms (probably not verbatim, considering the time:
"...? ...? la bagascia
la gh'eva la ganascia
in d'on monton de grass spetascià
ch'el parea'l cuu d'on sac de ruud" |
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Will
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:34 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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"Jess Askin" <nospam@dontbother.net> wrote in message news:<cmrq3i$3ji$1@news.netins.net>...
....
| Quote: | Cul de sacs are typically found in newer housing developments (since about
1970); the developers may have thought it sounded classier than "dead end."
Kind of like changing real-estate agent to realtor.
|
Does "realtor" really sound more classy than "real-estate agent"? Not
to my ears it doesn't.
To my eyes the plural *should* be culs-de-sac ("bottoms of bag") or
culs-de-sacs ("bottoms of bags") rather than cul-de-sac (I'm sure I
don't need to spell it out). Nonetheless, if the words are to be
spoken (and who can predict that with certainty?) the least ambiguous
is surely cul-de-sax.
Will. |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:24 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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On 10 Nov 2004 03:01:12 -0800, mb wrote:
| Quote: | Which suddenly reminds me after so many years of a parallel,
independent construction in some provincial poem detailing someone's
charms (probably not verbatim, considering the time:
"...? ...? la bagascia
la gh'eva la ganascia
in d'on monton de grass spetascià
ch'el parea'l cuu d'on sac de ruud"
|
It happens, or appears, to be written in my dialect. [1]
[1] Dialects are not varieties of Italian, but just different languages.
Bye, FB
--
"May I come with you to the station?"
"Please, do. I like to go off in style."
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film) |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:02 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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FB wrote:
| Quote: | On 10 Nov 2004 03:01:12 -0800, mb wrote:
Which suddenly reminds me after so many years of a parallel,
independent construction in some provincial poem detailing
someone's
charms (probably not verbatim, considering the time:
"...? ...? la bagascia
la gh'eva la ganascia
in d'on monton de grass spetascià
ch'el parea'l cuu d'on sac de ruud"
It happens, or appears, to be written in my dialect. [1]
[1] Dialects are not varieties of Italian, but just different
languages. |
Just out of curiosity, what language is that poem in, and what language
is yours, FB?
Anyway, I can tell you're wrong. I can't understand standard Italian,
and I can't understand that poem (except that someone is such a pile of
fat that his or her ass looks like a sack of something), so that poem
must be in a variety of Italian. QED.
--
Jerry Friedman |
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Don A. Gilmore
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:02 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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"Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
news:y8h9fwjf.fsf@hpl.hp.com...
| Quote: | I was familiar with both cul-de-sacs and dead-end streets (I lived on
a cul-de-sac in my teens) and I don't consider them the same thing at
all. A dead end goes straight until it ends and then stops. A
cul-de-sac, by contrast, ends in a widened area designed to allow a
vehicle to turn around without backing up.
Both cul-de-sacs and dead-end streets are wide enough for two-way
traffic, while an alley, at least where I grew up, is not.
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I'd hate to live on a one-way, dead end street.
Don
Kansas City |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:02 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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"Jess Askin" <nospam@dontbother.net> writes:
| Quote: | "mb" <azythos2@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:668d6151.0411091541.753b424b@posting.google.com...
"Jess Askin" <nospam@dontbother.net> wrote
"We live on a cul de sac; in fact, there are many cul de sacs in
this neighborhood."
|
That's the way I would say (and write) it, although I might use
hyphens.
| Quote: | Would be acceptable as culldesacks, plural of culldesack. Now you
spell it out, I realize what some acquaintances of mine were
talking about. Blind alleys, right? Too rough and proletarian for
the genteel suburban, I imagine. Why he doesn't adapt the spelling
(while respelling a good number of good old English words, also per
Google) is beyond me.
Cul de sacs are typically found in newer housing developments (since
about 1970); the developers may have thought it sounded classier
than "dead end." Kind of like changing real-estate agent to
realtor.
|
I was familiar with both cul-de-sacs and dead-end streets (I lived on
a cul-de-sac in my teens) and I don't consider them the same thing at
all. A dead end goes straight until it ends and then stops. A
cul-de-sac, by contrast, ends in a widened area designed to allow a
vehicle to turn around without backing up.
Both cul-de-sacs and dead-end streets are wide enough for two-way
traffic, while an alley, at least where I grew up, is not. Alleys are
narrow throughways designed for service vehicles (e.g., garbage trucks
or delivery trucks). They weren't, I believe, actually "one-way", but
whoever got in first got to assert the direction.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |There are two types of people -
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |those who are one of the two types
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |of people, and those who are not.
| Leigh Blue Caldwell
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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Serge Paccalin
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:03 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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Le mercredi 10 novembre 2004 à 02:15:48, Jess Askin a écrit dans
alt.usage.english :
| Quote: | Cul de sacs are typically found in newer housing developments (since about
1970); the developers may have thought it sounded classier than "dead end."
|
That's funny. 'Cul-de-sac' sound gross to some Frenchpeople since 'cul'
means 'arse'. They would use 'impasse' instead.
--
___________ 2004-11-10 20:16:22
_/ _ \_`_`_`_) Serge PACCALIN -- sp ad mailclub.net
\ \_L_) Il faut donc que les hommes commencent
-'(__) par n'être pas fanatiques pour mériter
_/___(_) la tolérance. -- Voltaire, 1763 |
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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:03 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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|
"FB" <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message
news:1wr2uuzxjct7e$.bo263qtkqx33$.dlg@40tude.net...
| Quote: | On 10 Nov 2004 03:01:12 -0800, mb wrote:
Which suddenly reminds me after so many years of a parallel,
independent construction in some provincial poem detailing someone's
charms (probably not verbatim, considering the time:
"...? ...? la bagascia
la gh'eva la ganascia
in d'on monton de grass spetascià
ch'el parea'l cuu d'on sac de ruud"
It happens, or appears, to be written in my dialect.
|
Milan el po' fa e'l pò dì, ma el po' minga l'acqua in vin convertì. |
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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:03 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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"Don A. Gilmore" <eromlignodNOSPM@kc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:2vf227F2l912nU1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | "Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
news:y8h9fwjf.fsf@hpl.hp.com...
I was familiar with both cul-de-sacs and dead-end streets (I lived on
a cul-de-sac in my teens) and I don't consider them the same thing at
all. A dead end goes straight until it ends and then stops. A
cul-de-sac, by contrast, ends in a widened area designed to allow a
vehicle to turn around without backing up.
Both cul-de-sacs and dead-end streets are wide enough for two-way
traffic, while an alley, at least where I grew up, is not.
I'd hate to live on a one-way, dead end street.
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Kinda like write-only memory. |
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R H Draney
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:04 pm
Post subject: Re: idées fixes |
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Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
| Quote: |
Both cul-de-sacs and dead-end streets are wide enough for two-way
traffic, while an alley, at least where I grew up, is not. Alleys are
narrow throughways designed for service vehicles (e.g., garbage trucks
or delivery trucks). They weren't, I believe, actually "one-way", but
whoever got in first got to assert the direction.
|
About two weeks ago, I actually found myself on a one-way dead-end street...I'll
have to go back and take pictures....r |
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