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jarek
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:03 pm
Post subject: "if clause" problem |
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Good day!
I'm puzzled enough, so here's the puzzle for you.
The context.
Two people discuss John's language skills. Although they both know he used
to study at an English univeristy, one of them doubts that John speaks
English. The other replies
"If he studied in England, he must speak English".
Is this sentence correct? If not, what would you suggest using "if..."
clause? The question behind it is: must an "if..." clause be always
subordinate?
thanks
jarek
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:22 pm
Post subject: Re: "if clause" problem |
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jarek wrote on 08 Nov 2004:
| Quote: | Good day!
I'm puzzled enough, so here's the puzzle for you.
The context.
Two people discuss John's language skills. Although they both know
he used to study at an English univeristy, one of them doubts that
John speaks English. The other replies
"If he studied in England, he must speak English".
Is this sentence correct?
|
Yes, it's correct. It isn't the only way to say that, though. "must"
can be replaced by "has to".
It's also possible to remove the "if" and make that clause the
independent clause, e.g.:
"John studied in England, so he has to speak English."
| Quote: | If not, what would you suggest using
[instead of] <seems to be missing here
"if..." clause? The question behind it is: must an "if..." clause
be always subordinate?
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Yes, it is always a subordinate or dependent clause.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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Michael Hamm
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:47 pm
Post subject: Re: "if clause" problem |
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Today, Jordan Abel <jmabel@purdue.edu> abed:
| Quote: | "If he studied in England, he must speak English".
Is this sentence correct? <snip
yes
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I'd say it that way, but if one wanted to be perfectly precise, he'd say
"he must be able to speak English".
Michael Hamm
AM, Math, Wash. U. St. Louis
msh210@math.wustl.edu Standard disclaimers:
http://math.wustl.edu/~msh210/ ... legal.html
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Stan Brown
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:13 pm
Post subject: Re: "if clause" problem |
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"jarek" <jarek.orlowski@______post.pl_______> wrote in
alt.usage.english:
| Quote: | "If he studied in England, he must speak English".
Is this sentence correct? If not, what would you suggest using "if..."
clause? The question behind it is: must an "if..." clause be always
subordinate?
|
Yes, the sentence is correct. Yes, "if" is a subordinating
conjunction and therefore the "if" clause is subordinate.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"And if you're afraid of butter, which many people are nowa-
days, (long pause) you just put in cream." --Julia Child |
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Jordan Abel
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:08 am
Post subject: Re: "if clause" problem |
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jarek wrote:
| Quote: | "If he studied in England, he must speak English".
Is this sentence correct? If not, what would you suggest using "if..."
clause? The question behind it is: must an "if..." clause be always
subordinate?
|
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that you have provided an
example where the "if..." clause fails to be subordinate. "he studied in
England" is, in fact, a subordinate clause in that sentence.
The answer is yes, simply because being tagged with "if" makes something a
subordinate clause. |
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John Lawler
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:02 am
Post subject: Re: "if clause" problem |
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Michael Hamm <mhamm@artsci.wustl.edu> writes:
| Quote: | Today, Jordan Abel <jmabel@purdue.edu> writes:
"If he studied in England, he must speak English".
Is this sentence correct? <snip
yes
I'd say it that way, but if one wanted to be perfectly precise, he'd say
"he must be able to speak English".
|
Actually, the construction
speak <language name>
*means*
be able to speak <language name>
so it's equally precise either way.
This is a rather odd fact about English -- it's not true of any other
construction I know of that one can add a modal auxiliary ad libitum et
salva veritate -- but there it is. English is after all full of odd facts.
And by the way, yes, *any* clause, whatever it means, wherever it appears,
that begins with 'if', 'when', 'whenever', 'while', 'however', 'because', or
around a hundred other subordinating conjunctions, *is*, by definition, a
subordinate (adverbial) clause. Period.
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U Michigan Linguistics Dept
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"You can only find truth with logic if you have already found
truth without it." -- G.K. Chesterton |
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Dylan Nicholson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:44 am
Post subject: Re: "if clause" problem |
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"John Lawler" <jlawler@umich.edu> wrote in message
news:c2Sjd.96$i6.43@news.itd.umich.edu...
| Quote: | Actually, the construction
speak <language name
*means*
be able to speak <language name
so it's equally precise either way.
This is a rather odd fact about English -- it's not true of any other
construction I know of that one can add a modal auxiliary ad libitum et
salva veritate -- but there it is. English is after all full of odd facts.
|
It's the same in Spanish though. "Hablo Espanol" means "I speak Spanish",
which is not referring just to the fact that you are, in fact, speaking in
Spanish at that very point in time, but that you in fact are capable of
holding a conversation in Spanish. |
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John O'Flaherty
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:51 am
Post subject: Re: "if clause" problem |
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John Lawler wrote:
| Quote: | Michael Hamm <mhamm@artsci.wustl.edu> writes:
Today, Jordan Abel <jmabel@purdue.edu> writes:
"If he studied in England, he must speak English".
Is this sentence correct? <snip
yes
I'd say it that way, but if one wanted to be perfectly precise, he'd say
"he must be able to speak English".
Actually, the construction
speak <language name
*means*
be able to speak <language name
so it's equally precise either way.
This is a rather odd fact about English -- it's not true of any other
construction I know of that one can add a modal auxiliary ad libitum et
salva veritate -- but there it is. English is after all full of odd facts.
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Still, it can be read with a different meaning with 'must speak', but
not with 'must be able to speak'.
--
john |
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jarek
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:46 pm
Post subject: Re: "if clause" problem |
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Dylan Nicholson wrote:
| Quote: | It's the same in Spanish though. "Hablo Espanol" means "I speak
Spanish", which is not referring just to the fact that you are, in
fact, speaking in Spanish at that very point in time, but that you in
fact are capable of holding a conversation in Spanish.
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Same in Polish. As we haven't got a proper continuous tense, the same finite
verb can express an ability, habit or a present continuous action, depending
on the expression of time or its absence.
thanks for help,
jarek |
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