| Author |
Message |
Michael J Hardy
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:12 am
Post subject: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
Not long ago someone -- an Australian, I think -- maybe
Peter Moylan? -- remarked in this forum that to Americans
vowel-length is non-phonemic, and he thought that was odd.
I'm an American and I had always thougth vowel-length is
non-phonemic in English.
I've wondered at times what those colons in British dictionary
pronunciations meant. I now suspect they're about phonemics
vowel lengths.
Can someone confirm or disconfirm my suspicion?
More importantly, can someone give a reasonable account of
the role of phonemic differences in vowel length in those
versions of English that have them? -- Mike Hardy
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Dylan Nicholson
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:54 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
"Michael J Hardy" <mjhardy@mit.edu> wrote in message
news:418ed62b$0$557$b45e6eb0@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...
| Quote: | Not long ago someone -- an Australian, I think -- maybe
Peter Moylan? -- remarked in this forum that to Americans
vowel-length is non-phonemic, and he thought that was odd.
|
I suspect it's a primarily non-rhotic phenomenon.
Hence "dead" vs "dared", "ken" vs "cairn" etc.
I know that some non-rhotic UK accents use a schwa in these sorts
of examples, but I suspect the vowel length is also longer.
Not sure how or if non-rhotic Americans distinguish these pairs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:40 pm
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
In article <418ed62b$0$557$b45e6eb0@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu>,
Michael J Hardy at mjhardy@mit.edu poured forth...
| Quote: | Not long ago someone -- an Australian, I think -- maybe
Peter Moylan? -- remarked in this forum that to Americans
vowel-length is non-phonemic, and he thought that was odd.
I'm an American and I had always thougth vowel-length is
non-phonemic in English.
I've wondered at times what those colons in British dictionary
pronunciations meant. I now suspect they're about phonemics
vowel lengths.
Can someone confirm or disconfirm my suspicion?
More importantly, can someone give a reasonable account of
the role of phonemic differences in vowel length in those
versions of English that have them? -- Mike Hardy
|
Are you referring to the phenomenon of English vowels changing
sound near the end because the mouth is changing shape? Like "O"
becoming more "U-like" as the mouth closes, or "A" becoming "E"?
In Italian or Spanish, for example, the sound is cut off before
this begins to happen, so the vowels are short and pure.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster)
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Piotr Wyderski
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:48 pm
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
don groves wrote:
| Quote: | In Italian or Spanish, for example, the sound is cut off before
this begins to happen, so the vowels are short and pure.
|
Same in Polish. So, is it reasonable to classify "o" as
a vowel, since it is composed of two different sounds? :-)
Best regards
Piotr Wyderski |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jess Askin
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:41 pm
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
"Piotr Wyderski" <wyderskiREMOVE@ii.uni.wroc.pl> wrote in message
news:cmo4fl$9kr$1@news.dialog.net.pl...
| Quote: | don groves wrote:
In Italian or Spanish, for example, the sound is cut off before
this begins to happen, so the vowels are short and pure.
Same in Polish. So, is it reasonable to classify "o" as
a vowel, since it is composed of two different sounds? 
|
In some words, in some dialects, it's pronounced as a single vowel sound, at
other times it's a diphthong. In both cases, it would still be classified as
a vowel, because it's a single letter. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alan Jones
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:20 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
"Jess Askin" <nospam@dontbother.net> wrote in message
news:cmo7ie$93s$1@news.netins.net...
| Quote: |
"Piotr Wyderski" <wyderskiREMOVE@ii.uni.wroc.pl> wrote in message
news:cmo4fl$9kr$1@news.dialog.net.pl...
don groves wrote:
In Italian or Spanish, for example, the sound is cut off before
this begins to happen, so the vowels are short and pure.
Same in Polish. So, is it reasonable to classify "o" as
a vowel, since it is composed of two different sounds? :-)
In some words, in some dialects, it's pronounced as a single vowel sound,
at
other times it's a diphthong. In both cases, it would still be classified
as
a vowel, because it's a single letter.
|
Surely not? The spelling has nothing to do with the case. "Hi!", "high",
"height", "lie" and "try" have approximately the same sound, and it's a
diphthong in all of them.
Alan Jones |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:36 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
In article <cmo4fl$9kr$1@news.dialog.net.pl>, Piotr Wyderski at
wyderskiREMOVE@ii.uni.wroc.pl poured forth...
| Quote: | don groves wrote:
In Italian or Spanish, for example, the sound is cut off before
this begins to happen, so the vowels are short and pure.
Same in Polish. So, is it reasonable to classify "o" as
a vowel, since it is composed of two different sounds?
|
As Jess pointed out, it's considered a vowel since it's a single
letter but the way we say it is impure.
The two sounds happen because as the mouth closes, the "o" sound
flattens to an "ooh" sound due to the rounded shape of the mouth.
If you say "a" which has a broader, elliptical mouth shape, then
as the mouth closes, the sound becomes more like "e".
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dylan Nicholson
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:38 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
"don groves" <dgroves@domain.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bf9789310aa2d60989ab9@news.individual.net...
| Quote: | In article <cmo4fl$9kr$1@news.dialog.net.pl>, Piotr Wyderski at
wyderskiREMOVE@ii.uni.wroc.pl poured forth...
don groves wrote:
In Italian or Spanish, for example, the sound is cut off before
this begins to happen, so the vowels are short and pure.
Same in Polish. So, is it reasonable to classify "o" as
a vowel, since it is composed of two different sounds? :-)
As Jess pointed out, it's considered a vowel since it's a single
letter but the way we say it is impure.
The two sounds happen because as the mouth closes, the "o" sound
flattens to an "ooh" sound due to the rounded shape of the mouth.
|
Actually the 'o' vowel in words like "no" and "go" etc. doesn't really
have a proper "o" sound in it at all, at least for me, and from what I've
heard of most American accents. It's more like a schwa-type
vowel, followed by an 'u' (oo). Indeed that's how
http://www.wordreference.com/definition/go.htm
displays the IPA.
But to me this is nothing to do with what the original poster
asked about, which was lengthening *only*. I posted examples
of words that I distinguished purely based on vowel length. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Piotr Wyderski
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:14 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
don groves wrote:
| Quote: | The two sounds happen because as the mouth closes, the "o" sound
flattens to an "ooh" sound due to the rounded shape of the mouth.
|
Frankly speaking, I am not convinced. The best
counterexample is that in many other languages
there is no problem with "pure" vowels. The correct
pronunciation of the "u" part needs _active_ support
of the speaker, at least in my case, i.e. it's easy for
me to (incorrectly) pronounce a given English word
using pure vowels instead of diphtongs. :-)
Regards,
Piotr Wyderski |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Lawler
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:21 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
Jess Askin <nospam@dontbother.net> writes:
| Quote: | "Piotr Wyderski" <wyderskiREMOVE@ii.uni.wroc.pl> writes
don groves writes:
In Italian or Spanish, for example, the sound is cut off before
this begins to happen, so the vowels are short and pure.
Same in Polish. So, is it reasonable to classify "o" as
a vowel, since it is composed of two different sounds? :-)
In some words, in some dialects, it's pronounced as a single vowel sound, at
other times it's a diphthong. In both cases, it would still be classified as
a vowel, because it's a single letter.
|
No, it's not a letter. Letters occur in written languages.
Pronunciation occurs in spoken languages. The term you
want is 'phoneme', and the English phoneme /o/, like all
English tense vowel phonemes (/i/, /e/, /o/, /u/), is usually
pronounced as a diphthong.
It's still just one phoneme, though it may be spelled various
ways, and may even be represented phonemically by compound
symbols (BrEng /@U/, AmEng /ow/, etc.).
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler Michigan Linguistics
------------------------------------------------------------
"Ordnung gibt es heutzutage meistens dort, wo nichts ist.
Es ist eine Mangelerscheinung." -- Bertolt Brecht |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dylan Nicholson
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:35 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
"John Lawler" <jlawler@umich.edu> wrote in message
news:njSjd.100$i6.68@news.itd.umich.edu...
| Quote: |
Pronunciation occurs in spoken languages. The term you
want is 'phoneme', and the English phoneme /o/, like all
English tense vowel phonemes (/i/, /e/, /o/, /u/), is usually
pronounced as a diphthong.
How is /e/ a diphthong? The name of the vowel "a" obviously |
is, as is true for i, o & u, but I unless I misunderstand what you
mean, 'e' doesn't have any change in vowel quality.
Indeed, I pronounce it virtually exactly the same as the pure 'i'
or 'y' vowel in, say, most romance languages. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Lawler
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:01 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
Dylan Nicholson <wizofaus@hotmail.com> writes:
| Quote: | "John Lawler" <jlawler@umich.edu> writes
Pronunciation occurs in spoken languages. The term you
want is 'phoneme', and the English phoneme /o/, like all
English tense vowel phonemes (/i/, /e/, /o/, /u/), is usually
pronounced as a diphthong.
How is /e/ a diphthong? The name of the vowel "a" obviously
is, as is true for i, o & u, but I unless I misunderstand what you
mean, 'e' doesn't have any change in vowel quality.
Indeed, I pronounce it virtually exactly the same as the pure 'i'
or 'y' vowel in, say, most romance languages.
|
Get used to giving examples when you attempt to
discuss phonemics on Usenet. The names for the
vowel letters are /e/, /i/, /ay/, /o/, /yu/.
They don't refer to phonemes, but to letters.
A chart of the symbols I'm using here on Usenet
is available at
http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler/aue/vowels.html#chart
We're probably talking about different vowels.
I was referring to the tense vowel /e/ in words like
'hay', 'grey', 'raid', 'race'
(respectively /he/, /gre/, /red/, /res/).
You may be meaning the lax vowel /E/ as in
'get', 'sell', 'elder', 'when'
(respectively /gEt/, /sEl/, /Eld@r/, /wEn/).
High and mid front and back vowels in English contrast
with respect to tense /i, e, o, u/ and lax /I, E, O, U/
features. So, while there aren't any front rounded vowels
in English as in German or French (/ö/, /ü/), there are
four pairs of tense and lax vowels that give most non-native
speakers problems, because they aren't used to a systematic
opposition of a feature that's allophonic in most European
languages (where tense vowels tend to occur in open syllables,
and lax ones in closed syllables).
One difference between the tense and lax vowels in English
is that the tense ones are always diphthongized while the
lax ones never are. Another is that tense vowels can occur
at the end of a word, while /O/ ('law') is the only lax vowel
that can (and in American English you can get away with using
/a/ instead of /O/, because half the population lacks that
distinction).
OK?
-John Lawler U of Michigan Linguistics Dept
http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler/disclaimers.html
#include disclaimers.h |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Skitt
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:02 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
Piotr Wyderski rakstija:
| Quote: | don groves wrote:
The two sounds happen because as the mouth closes, the "o" sound
flattens to an "ooh" sound due to the rounded shape of the mouth.
Frankly speaking, I am not convinced. The best
counterexample is that in many other languages
there is no problem with "pure" vowels. The correct
pronunciation of the "u" part needs _active_ support
of the speaker, at least in my case, i.e. it's easy for
me to (incorrectly) pronounce a given English word
using pure vowels instead of diphtongs.
|
I kow what you mean!
--
Skitt (AUE's token Latvian) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Skitt
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:05 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
Dylan Nicholson rakstija:
| Quote: | "John Lawler" wrote:
Pronunciation occurs in spoken languages. The term you
want is 'phoneme', and the English phoneme /o/, like all
English tense vowel phonemes (/i/, /e/, /o/, /u/), is usually
pronounced as a diphthong.
How is /e/ a diphthong? The name of the vowel "a" obviously
is, as is true for i, o & u, but I unless I misunderstand what you
mean, 'e' doesn't have any change in vowel quality.
Indeed, I pronounce it virtually exactly the same as the pure 'i'
or 'y' vowel in, say, most romance languages.
|
The short (in duration) e is not a diphthong, but the longer one as in
"gate" sure is (unless you are Irish, I believe).
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dylan Nicholson
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:09 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
"Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> wrote in message news:2vacerF2jg24vU1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: |
Dylan Nicholson rakstija:
"John Lawler" wrote:
Pronunciation occurs in spoken languages. The term you
want is 'phoneme', and the English phoneme /o/, like all
English tense vowel phonemes (/i/, /e/, /o/, /u/), is usually
pronounced as a diphthong.
How is /e/ a diphthong? The name of the vowel "a" obviously
is, as is true for i, o & u, but I unless I misunderstand what you
mean, 'e' doesn't have any change in vowel quality.
Indeed, I pronounce it virtually exactly the same as the pure 'i'
or 'y' vowel in, say, most romance languages.
The short (in duration) e is not a diphthong, but the longer one as in
"gate" sure is (unless you are Irish, I believe).
|
Yes of course, I wasn't really sure what John was referring to.
I can't say I understand fully why that sound would be called the tense
/e/ phoneme. Logically, it's an 'a' vowel to me (specifically, the name
of vowel 'a'). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in