| Author |
Message |
don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:06 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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In article <cmor3j$l5d$1@news.dialog.net.pl>, Piotr Wyderski at
wyderskiREMOVE@ii.uni.wroc.pl exposited:
| Quote: | don groves wrote:
The two sounds happen because as the mouth closes, the "o" sound
flattens to an "ooh" sound due to the rounded shape of the mouth.
Frankly speaking, I am not convinced.
|
It's easy to prove it to yourself by experimenation. Just let the
sound continue as your mouth closes without changing shape.
| Quote: | The best
counterexample is that in many other languages
there is no problem with "pure" vowels. The correct
pronunciation of the "u" part needs _active_ support
of the speaker, at least in my case, i.e. it's easy for
me to (incorrectly) pronounce a given English word
using pure vowels instead of diphtongs. 
|
I think we have a misunderstanding. I already said languages
using short vowels don't have the problem, so of course you can
mispronounce some English words by using short vowels where we
would use a long one.
One thing I learned in singing is how hard it is for many
American singers to learn to pronounce vowels properly in
classical song. Even though they know the classical vowels are
ah, eh, ee, oh, oo, they still want to drag them out, make them
have two sounds. Teaching them to say "Noh", instead of "No-ooh"
is not easy.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster)
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Dylan Nicholson
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:24 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
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"don groves" <dgroves@domain.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bf9e2303cfb5431989abe@news.individual.net...
| Quote: |
One thing I learned in singing is how hard it is for many
American singers to learn to pronounce vowels properly in
classical song. Even though they know the classical vowels are
ah, eh, ee, oh, oo, they still want to drag them out, make them
have two sounds. Teaching them to say "Noh", instead of "No-ooh"
is not easy.
|
As long as you understand that's a problem specific to native
English speakers. The glide is not something that "just comes
naturally" - it's what we learn as children, and hence do it
intuitively. For native speakers of languages with more pure
vowels, the diphthongs in English make it harder to speak
in an "accentless" fashion.
I'm curious though, do you personally pronounce "no"
as "noh-ooh"? For me, it's more like "nuh-ooh", "nuh"
being almost a schwa, although schwas can vary
somewhat.
I suspect the true "o-u" diphthong is very rare - it
doesn't occur in Spanish that I know of. |
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Carmen L. Abruzzi
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:53 pm
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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don groves wrote:
| Quote: | In article <cmor3j$l5d$1@news.dialog.net.pl>, Piotr Wyderski at
wyderskiREMOVE@ii.uni.wroc.pl exposited:
don groves wrote:
The two sounds happen because as the mouth closes, the "o" sound
flattens to an "ooh" sound due to the rounded shape of the mouth.
Frankly speaking, I am not convinced.
It's easy to prove it to yourself by experimenation. Just let the
sound continue as your mouth closes without changing shape.
|
But you don't "close your mouth" after every vowel. And it's
quite possible
to stop pronouncing the vowel before you do when you do.
The diphthong-quality of
English tense vowels isn't a side-effect of mouth-closing,
it's just a feature of English phonology.
| Quote: |
The best
counterexample is that in many other languages
there is no problem with "pure" vowels. The correct
pronunciation of the "u" part needs _active_ support
of the speaker, at least in my case, i.e. it's easy for
me to (incorrectly) pronounce a given English word
using pure vowels instead of diphtongs. :-)
I think we have a misunderstanding. I already said languages
using short vowels don't have the problem, so of course you can
mispronounce some English words by using short vowels where we
would use a long one.
It isn't a question of "short vowels" versus "long vowels". |
It's simply that in English, the so called "long" vowels
(which aren't really long in any case) are diphthongs.
There are long and short vowels in, for example, Finnish,
where the only difference is in the length of time taken to
pronounce them, both are "pure" vowels without any hint of
the diphthongization found in English "long" vowels.
Put another way, the diphthongization is an active process,
not merely a side effect of holding the vowel for a longer
period (which, as I've said, isn't what happens, anyway--in
American English the first vowel of "wader" is long, the
first vowel of "waiter" is short, but both have the same
diphthong-quality).
| Quote: | One thing I learned in singing is how hard it is for many
American singers to learn to pronounce vowels properly in
classical song. Even though they know the classical vowels are
ah, eh, ee, oh, oo, they still want to drag them out, make them
have two sounds.
|
It isn't "dragging them out" that makes them have two
sounds, it's just the way English is pronounced.
|
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Piotr Wyderski
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:47 pm
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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|
Dylan Nicholson wrote:
| Quote: | As long as you understand that's a problem specific to native
English speakers. The glide is not something that "just comes
naturally" - it's what we learn as children, and hence do it
intuitively. For native speakers of languages with more pure
vowels, the diphthongs in English make it harder to speak
in an "accentless" fashion.
|
This is exactly my point.
Regards,
Piotr Wyderski |
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Piotr Wyderski
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:47 pm
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
don groves wrote:
| Quote: | It's easy to prove it to yourself by experimenation. Just let the
sound continue as your mouth closes without changing shape.
|
The experiment gave a negative result. Sorry, Don. :-)
| Quote: | One thing I learned in singing is how hard it is for many
American singers to learn to pronounce vowels properly in
classical song.
|
I didn't know that. BTW, what do you mean by "classical"?
The songs sung in Latin, like the "Adeste fideles" anthem/carol?
Regards,
Piotr Wyderski |
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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:25 pm
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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|
"Piotr Wyderski" <wyderskiREMOVE@ii.uni.wroc.pl> wrote in message
news:cmqa29$a3k$1@news.dialog.net.pl...
| Quote: | don groves wrote:
It's easy to prove it to yourself by experimenation. Just let the
sound continue as your mouth closes without changing shape.
The experiment gave a negative result. Sorry, Don. :-)
One thing I learned in singing is how hard it is for many
American singers to learn to pronounce vowels properly in
classical song.
I didn't know that. BTW, what do you mean by "classical"?
The songs sung in Latin, like the "Adeste fideles" anthem/carol?
Regards,
Piotr Wyderski
|
We've discussed in AUE before about how some people pronounce "eh" as /e/
instead of /eI/ or /E/ (as the vowel in the French "été" instead of the
vowel pronounced in "ate" or "fed"). Yesterday I decided to look up "eh" in
OED2: "*eh* (e:, eI), _int._ [repr. an exclamation of instinctive origin;
ME. had EY; the mod. spelling may be after Fr. _eh,_ though it might have
suggested itself independently.]"
Note the first pronunciation. It's the same vowel as in French "été," but
lengthened.
I was startled to learn recently that several dictionaries which otherwise
use the International Phonetic Alphabet use /e/ for the vowel in "fed" and
"help." Even *The Oxford-Hachette French Dictionary,* which represents /E/
with a small epsilon in French words like "belle" and "mer," uses /e/ for
the vowel English words like "fed" and "help," while at the same time using
/e/ in the diphthong /eI/. I first learned about this as a result of a
discussion in the Usenet newsgroup fr.lettres.langue.anglaise , where a
poster was puzzled by how /e/ was used in the English-language dictionaries
he was acquainted with.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:25 pm
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
Carmen L. Abruzzi wrote:
| Quote: | (which, as I've said, isn't what happens, anyway--in
American English the first vowel of "wader" is long, the
first vowel of "waiter" is short, but both have the same
diphthong-quality).
|
I think in my dialect "wader" and "waiter" have first vowels of the same
duration. Ordinarily, the words are perfect homophones.
--
Steny '08! |
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don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:59 pm
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
In article <2vb4ahF2k0nisU1@uni-berlin.de>, Carmen L. Abruzzi at
carmenlabruzzi@yahoo.com exposited:
| Quote: | don groves wrote:
In article <cmor3j$l5d$1@news.dialog.net.pl>, Piotr Wyderski at
wyderskiREMOVE@ii.uni.wroc.pl exposited:
don groves wrote:
The two sounds happen because as the mouth closes, the "o" sound
flattens to an "ooh" sound due to the rounded shape of the mouth.
Frankly speaking, I am not convinced.
It's easy to prove it to yourself by experimenation. Just let the
sound continue as your mouth closes without changing shape.
But you don't "close your mouth" after every vowel. And it's
quite possible
to stop pronouncing the vowel before you do when you do.
|
And that's how to make a "pure" vowel, stop the sound before
changing the mouth and jaw position.
| Quote: | The diphthong-quality of
English tense vowels isn't a side-effect of mouth-closing,
it's just a feature of English phonology.
The best
counterexample is that in many other languages
there is no problem with "pure" vowels. The correct
pronunciation of the "u" part needs _active_ support
of the speaker, at least in my case, i.e. it's easy for
me to (incorrectly) pronounce a given English word
using pure vowels instead of diphtongs. :-)
I think we have a misunderstanding. I already said languages
using short vowels don't have the problem, so of course you can
mispronounce some English words by using short vowels where we
would use a long one.
It isn't a question of "short vowels" versus "long vowels".
It's simply that in English, the so called "long" vowels
(which aren't really long in any case) are diphthongs.
There are long and short vowels in, for example, Finnish,
where the only difference is in the length of time taken to
pronounce them, both are "pure" vowels without any hint of
the diphthongization found in English "long" vowels.
Put another way, the diphthongization is an active process,
not merely a side effect of holding the vowel for a longer
period (which, as I've said, isn't what happens, anyway--in
American English the first vowel of "wader" is long, the
first vowel of "waiter" is short, but both have the same
diphthong-quality).
|
When I say "wader" without any mouth closing between the "a" and
the "d", there is no dipthong. It doesn't take much mouth
movement to cause the change in vowel quality so you may be doing
it unconsciously.
Try this: Say "A". Close your mouth and then say "D". The change
in position between the two is enough to cause the dipthong
effect.
Another experiment: Say "A" and then without stopping the sound
or moving the mouth or jaw, try to make a dipthong. It's not
possible. The formation of separate sounds of a dipthonmg require
different mouth and jaw positions. That's how we make different
sounds...
| Quote: | One thing I learned in singing is how hard it is for many
American singers to learn to pronounce vowels properly in
classical song. Even though they know the classical vowels are
ah, eh, ee, oh, oo, they still want to drag them out, make them
have two sounds.
It isn't "dragging them out" that makes them have two
sounds, it's just the way English is pronounced.
|
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:59 pm
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
In article <cmqa29$a3k$1@news.dialog.net.pl>, Piotr Wyderski at
wyderskiREMOVE@ii.uni.wroc.pl exposited:
| Quote: | don groves wrote:
It's easy to prove it to yourself by experimenation. Just let the
sound continue as your mouth closes without changing shape.
The experiment gave a negative result. Sorry, Don.
|
You are unusually talented if you can make the same identical
sound using different mouth positions. Perhaps a career as a
ventriloquist is waiting for you ;-)
| Quote: | One thing I learned in singing is how hard it is for many
American singers to learn to pronounce vowels properly in
classical song.
I didn't know that. BTW, what do you mean by "classical"?
The songs sung in Latin, like the "Adeste fideles" anthem/carol?
|
Latin or Italian.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:59 pm
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
In article <2vav3jF2j46o7U1@uni-berlin.de>, Dylan Nicholson at
wizofaus@hotmail.com exposited:
| Quote: | "don groves" <dgroves@domain.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bf9e2303cfb5431989abe@news.individual.net...
One thing I learned in singing is how hard it is for many
American singers to learn to pronounce vowels properly in
classical song. Even though they know the classical vowels are
ah, eh, ee, oh, oo, they still want to drag them out, make them
have two sounds. Teaching them to say "Noh", instead of "No-ooh"
is not easy.
As long as you understand that's a problem specific to native
English speakers. The glide is not something that "just comes
naturally" - it's what we learn as children, and hence do it
intuitively. For native speakers of languages with more pure
vowels, the diphthongs in English make it harder to speak
in an "accentless" fashion.
|
Exactly!
| Quote: | I'm curious though, do you personally pronounce "no"
as "noh-ooh"? For me, it's more like "nuh-ooh", "nuh"
being almost a schwa, although schwas can vary
somewhat.
|
Mine is definitely "No-ooh".
| Quote: |
I suspect the true "o-u" diphthong is very rare - it
doesn't occur in Spanish that I know of.
|
That's because native Spanish speakers use short, pure vowels.
They stop the sound much sooner than we do.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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Carmen L. Abruzzi
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:00 pm
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
don groves wrote:
| Quote: |
When I say "wader" without any mouth closing between the "a" and
the "d", there is no dipthong.
|
That would sound like a foreign accent. Or maybe an Irish one.
| Quote: | It doesn't take much mouth
movement to cause the change in vowel quality so you may be doing
it unconsciously.
|
Of course I'm doing it unconsciously. No one thinks
consciously about how they speak their native language.
When I learned Spanish, I had to think consciously about how
I was pronouncing vowels, but now, especially since I hear a
lot of Spanish around here, the pure vowels seem to come
pretty easily.
| Quote: |
Try this: Say "A".
Close your mouth and then say "D".
|
If I did that, I'd get [n], not [d]. One can't say [d] with
the mouth closed.
The change
| Quote: | in position between the two is enough to cause the dipthong
effect.
|
No, it isn't. French, Italian, German, and Finnish speakers
manage the transition from [e] to [d] perfectly well without
any diphthongization of the vowel. The diphthongization is
simply the way English is pronounced. Foreigners have to
*learn* to do this, it doesn't just happen as an incidental
consequence of setting up the vocal apparatus for a
following consonant.
| Quote: |
Another experiment: Say "A" and then without stopping the sound
or moving the mouth or jaw, try to make a dipthong. It's not
possible.
|
Of course it's possible. It's only the tongue that has to
move. Since both components are front and unrounded, no jaw
movement is really necessary. Now if we were talking about
[oi], then yes, there might be some jaw, or at least lip,
movement necessary.
The formation of separate sounds of a dipthonmg require
| Quote: | different mouth and jaw positions. That's how we make different
sounds...
|
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Dylan Nicholson
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:00 pm
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
"don groves" <dgroves@domain.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bfaa2cc1faebe12989ac3@news.individual.net...
| Quote: | In article <2vav3jF2j46o7U1@uni-berlin.de>, Dylan Nicholson at
wizofaus@hotmail.com exposited:
I'm curious though, do you personally pronounce "no"
as "noh-ooh"? For me, it's more like "nuh-ooh", "nuh"
being almost a schwa, although schwas can vary
somewhat.
Mine is definitely "No-ooh".
I'd be interesting in hearing a recording of that.
I suspect the true "o-u" diphthong is very rare - it
doesn't occur in Spanish that I know of.
That's because native Spanish speakers use short, pure vowels.
They stop the sound much sooner than we do.
|
Yes, but there are diphthongs in Spanish, and other languages.
I'm just commenting that "o-u" is perhaps a very rare one,
although you claim to use it. |
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Nell
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:38 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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|
Piotr Wyderski wrote:
| Quote: | Dylan Nicholson wrote:
As long as you understand that's a problem specific to native
English speakers. The glide is not something that "just comes
naturally" - it's what we learn as children, and hence do it
intuitively. For native speakers of languages with more pure
vowels, the diphthongs in English make it harder to speak
in an "accentless" fashion.
This is exactly my point.
Regards,
Piotr Wyderski
|
My great-grandmother was born in Switzerland near where it meets both
France and Italy, nearer to Italy. Her native language was French. She
could speak several languages fluently. English, the one she got stuck
being around, was not one of them. Her mother brought her over to
America to get her and her two sisters married off. Their father had
died and the girls were a burden. Her mother then went back to
Switzerland, never to have contact (AFAIK) with her daughter. The two
sisters subsequently back to the Old World. My great-grandmother was the
youngest, 16 years old.
I never heard her (she died in 1944, no recordings, and I was born in
1949)but her grandchildren spoke of her accent quite a bit. One time my
mother (one of her grandchildren) and I were watching "You Bet Your
Life" and one of the guests had a strong Germanic accent. My mother said
her grandmother sounded almost exactly like that woman. I don't recall
where the woman was from. I'd like to see that episode again as a
refresher. I can picture the woman.
Nell |
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don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:06 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
In article <41912078$0$2677$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, Dylan
Nicholson at wizofaus@hotmail.com exposited:
| Quote: | "don groves" <dgroves@domain.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bfaa2cc1faebe12989ac3@news.individual.net...
In article <2vav3jF2j46o7U1@uni-berlin.de>, Dylan Nicholson at
wizofaus@hotmail.com exposited:
I'm curious though, do you personally pronounce "no"
as "noh-ooh"? For me, it's more like "nuh-ooh", "nuh"
being almost a schwa, although schwas can vary
somewhat.
Mine is definitely "No-ooh".
I'd be interesting in hearing a recording of that.
|
I'll see if I can hook up my mic and make a .wav file. No place
to post it though. Gotta get off my duff and set up a web site.
| Quote: | I suspect the true "o-u" diphthong is very rare - it
doesn't occur in Spanish that I know of.
That's because native Spanish speakers use short, pure vowels.
They stop the sound much sooner than we do.
Yes, but there are diphthongs in Spanish, and other languages.
I'm just commenting that "o-u" is perhaps a very rare one,
although you claim to use it.
|
I agree the "o-u" is not as common as the others but it's there
nonetheless.
I lost Carmen's post before I could respond, so I'll answer here
here and maybe she'll read it.
Carmen:
You're right that all native speakers do so subconciously but
it's possible to become consciously aware of things like mouth
position, etc. through training and practice. Once you've done
that, it's really quite easy to detect the different sounds we
make without realizing it and how they're made.
Also, you mention the tongue as being distinct from the mouth.
The mouth has three movable parts that contribute to speech,
lips, tongue, and soft palette. The jaw controls the size of the
mouth opening so it's a separate thing.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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Dylan Nicholson
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:06 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
|
|
"don groves" <dgroves@domain.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bfaf42149a17a58989aca@news.individual.net...
| Quote: | In article <41912078$0$2677$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, Dylan
Nicholson at wizofaus@hotmail.com exposited:
"don groves" <dgroves@domain.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bfaa2cc1faebe12989ac3@news.individual.net...
Mine is definitely "No-ooh".
I'd be interesting in hearing a recording of that.
^ er...hmm
I'll see if I can hook up my mic and make a .wav file. No place
to post it though. Gotta get off my duff and set up a web site.
BobC is always happy to accept voice samples, especially |
unusual ones.
| Quote: |
Yes, but there are diphthongs in Spanish, and other languages.
I'm just commenting that "o-u" is perhaps a very rare one,
although you claim to use it.
I agree the "o-u" is not as common as the others but it's there
nonetheless.
I lost Carmen's post before I could respond, so I'll answer here
here and maybe she'll read it.
|
He, actually. |
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