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Dylan Nicholson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:34 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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"John Lawler" <jlawler@umich.edu> wrote in message
news:CVSjd.106$i6.65@news.itd.umich.edu...
| Quote: | Dylan Nicholson <wizofaus@hotmail.com> writes:
"John Lawler" <jlawler@umich.edu> writes
Pronunciation occurs in spoken languages. The term you
want is 'phoneme', and the English phoneme /o/, like all
English tense vowel phonemes (/i/, /e/, /o/, /u/), is usually
pronounced as a diphthong.
How is /e/ a diphthong? The name of the vowel "a" obviously
is, as is true for i, o & u, but I unless I misunderstand what you
mean, 'e' doesn't have any change in vowel quality.
Indeed, I pronounce it virtually exactly the same as the pure 'i'
or 'y' vowel in, say, most romance languages.
Get used to giving examples when you attempt to
discuss phonemics on Usenet. The names for the
vowel letters are /e/, /i/, /ay/, /o/, /yu/.
|
Ok, and other than /i/, these clearly are diphthongs.
But then you mention that the "tense vowel phonemes"
/i/ and /u/ are diphthongs.
Can you give an example of where these are diphthongs?
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:39 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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Alan Jones wrote:
| Quote: | Surely not? The spelling has nothing to do with the case. "Hi!", "high",
"height", "lie" and "try" have approximately the same sound, and it's a
diphthong in all of them.
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Well, except in certain dialects, such as Southern US. For example,
"license" (= BrE "licence") in Southern US dialects is "licen"
[la:s@n]. No diphthong there.
--
Steny '08! |
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:43 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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Dylan Nicholson wrote:
| Quote: | Actually the 'o' vowel in words like "no" and "go" etc. doesn't really
have a proper "o" sound in it at all, at least for me, and from what I've
heard of most American accents. It's more like a schwa-type
vowel, followed by an 'u' (oo).
|
Well, for Americans it depends on what accent you're talking from. I
think what you say is true for many of them, even though the "oh"
vowel usually doesn't quite reach the old RP type (except in a few
places like Philadelphia). But in some accents, and I think
especially those spoken by older speakers, you do hear bona fide [o]
in there. For example, take the peculiar Nutleyan accent of the
incarcerated Martha Stewart. Also, Sparky Cunningham probably has
true [oU].
As for Australians and Southeast Englanders, I really do not think
they use a back vowel in the second half of the diphthong. AusE or
EstE "no" sounds pretty close to "nay" to my ears.
--
Steny '08!
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:44 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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John Lawler wrote:
| Quote: | Pronunciation occurs in spoken languages. The term you
want is 'phoneme', and the English phoneme /o/, like all
English tense vowel phonemes (/i/, /e/, /o/, /u/), is usually
pronounced as a diphthong.
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Usually. But not in Minnes[o:]ta, ya?
--
Steny '08! |
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John Lawler
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:10 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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Dylan Nicholson <wizofaus@hotmail.com> writes:
| Quote: | "Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> writes
Dylan Nicholson rakstija:
"John Lawler" writes:
Pronunciation occurs in spoken languages. The term you
want is 'phoneme', and the English phoneme /o/, like all
English tense vowel phonemes (/i/, /e/, /o/, /u/), is usually
pronounced as a diphthong.
How is /e/ a diphthong? The name of the vowel "a" obviously
is, as is true for i, o & u, but I unless I misunderstand what you
mean, 'e' doesn't have any change in vowel quality.
Indeed, I pronounce it virtually exactly the same as the pure 'i'
or 'y' vowel in, say, most romance languages.
The short (in duration) e is not a diphthong, but the longer one as in
"gate" sure is (unless you are Irish, I believe).
Yes of course, I wasn't really sure what John was referring to.
I can't say I understand fully why that sound would be called the tense
/e/ phoneme. Logically, it's an 'a' vowel to me (specifically, the name
of vowel 'a').
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*Sigh*
Not 'logically'. You're talking about sounds, so it's
'phonetically'. And letters and their names don't refer
to sounds, but rather to writing.
See http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-soundsipa.htm
for a pretty good representation of the International
Phonetic Alphabet, with symbols, examples, and recordings.
The vowel in 'gate' is a tense /e/ phoneme.
It's tense, as opposed to the lax /E/ phoneme in 'get'.
Get used to the idea that English spelling sucks for
representing modern English pronunciation. You'd
do better to think of Italian, Spanish, Polish, or
even French vowels. English spelling represents
Middle English vowels, not Modern English. The Great
Vowel Shift was still going on when Caxton set up the
first English printing press and he standardized on a
conservative Middle English set of conventions.
Get to a copy of David Crystal's 'Cambridge Encyclopedia
of the English Language'. It contains all information
necessary for salvation.
OK?
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U Michigan Linguistics Dept
-----------------------------------------------------------
"... and, who knows? Maybe the horse will sing." |
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John Lawler
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:30 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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Dylan Nicholson writes:
| Quote: | "John Lawler" writes
Dylan Nicholson <wizofaus@hotmail.com> writes:
"John Lawler" <jlawler@umich.edu> writes
Pronunciation occurs in spoken languages. The term you
want is 'phoneme', and the English phoneme /o/, like all
English tense vowel phonemes (/i/, /e/, /o/, /u/), is usually
pronounced as a diphthong.
How is /e/ a diphthong? The name of the vowel "a" obviously
is, as is true for i, o & u, but I unless I misunderstand what you
mean, 'e' doesn't have any change in vowel quality.
Indeed, I pronounce it virtually exactly the same as the pure 'i'
or 'y' vowel in, say, most romance languages.
Get used to giving examples when you attempt to
discuss phonemics on Usenet. The names for the
vowel letters are /e/, /i/, /ay/, /o/, /yu/.
Ok, and other than /i/, these clearly are diphthongs.
But then you mention that the "tense vowel phonemes"
/i/ and /u/ are diphthongs.
Can you give an example of where these are diphthongs?
|
OK, to understand this, you have to know that there are different kinds of
diphthongs. In English, the kinds that occur include high front glides /y/
and high back rounded glides /w/. These are basically a tongue gesture
towards a very short tense /i/ or an /u/, respectively, (with lip rounding
in the case of /w/). So after a tense /i/ you actually get a [y], and after
an /u/ you get a [w], which you can hear when they're followed by other
vowels.
So listen to an English speaker say
two other people
and
three other people
The first will be
[tuw@D@rpip@l]
and the second will be
[Triy@D@rpip@l]
The [w] or [y] is the diphthongal part of /u/ or /i/, respectively. Since
the high vowels /i/ and /u/ are in the same place of articulation as the
semivowels /y/ and /w/ (respectively), this is not as obvious as it is with
the mid vowels /e/ and /o/. But it's equally true.
Look, this is the wrong medium to discuss phonetics or phonology. Get
yourself a copy of Crystal's 'The Cambridge Encyclopedia of The English
Language' and read it cover to cover.
And read the introduction to your bilingual dictionary that explains
the International Phonetic Alphabet symbols it uses.
You may also find
http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-soundsipa.htm
useful, or
http://classweb.gmu.edu/accent/.
Good luck.
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U Michigan Linguistics Dept
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"A man does not know what he is saying until he knows what he
is not saying." -- G.K. Chesterton, 1936, "As I Was Saying" |
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Michael J Hardy
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:56 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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Dylan Nicholson (wizofaus@hotmail.com) wrote:
| Quote: | "Michael J Hardy" <mjhardy@mit.edu> wrote in message
news:418ed62b$0$557$b45e6eb0@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...
Not long ago someone -- an Australian, I think -- maybe
Peter Moylan? -- remarked in this forum that to Americans
vowel-length is non-phonemic, and he thought that was odd.
I suspect it's a primarily non-rhotic phenomenon.
Hence "dead" vs "dared", "ken" vs "cairn" etc.
I know that some non-rhotic UK accents use a schwa in these sorts
of examples, but I suspect the vowel length is also longer.
Not sure how or if non-rhotic Americans distinguish these pairs.
|
Certainly those pairs are distinguished in non-rhotic American
English, by the fact that the "r" sound is present. Also, the
vowels are different, at least in my pronunciation.
I see this thread took off on a tangent unrelated to my query,
except for your posting. Thanks. -- Mike Hardy |
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Michael J Hardy
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:59 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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Areff (me@privacy.net) wrote:
| Quote: | Usually. But not in Minnes[o:]ta, ya?
|
Well, most Minnesotans do not speak with the stereotyped
Minnesota accent. That occurs in _northern_ Minnesota;
most Minnesotans live in _southern_ Minnesota. Half of
all Minnesotans live in the greater Mpls/StP area, in
_southern_ Minnesota. -- Mike Hardy |
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Dylan Nicholson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:00 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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"Michael J Hardy" <mjhardy@mit.edu> wrote in message
news:419023c9$0$557$b45e6eb0@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...
| Quote: | Dylan Nicholson (wizofaus@hotmail.com) wrote:
"Michael J Hardy" <mjhardy@mit.edu> wrote in message
news:418ed62b$0$557$b45e6eb0@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...
Not long ago someone -- an Australian, I think -- maybe
Peter Moylan? -- remarked in this forum that to Americans
vowel-length is non-phonemic, and he thought that was odd.
I suspect it's a primarily non-rhotic phenomenon.
Hence "dead" vs "dared", "ken" vs "cairn" etc.
I know that some non-rhotic UK accents use a schwa in these sorts
of examples, but I suspect the vowel length is also longer.
Not sure how or if non-rhotic Americans distinguish these pairs.
Certainly those pairs are distinguished in non-rhotic American
English, by the fact that the "r" sound is present.
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Um, that sentence is a contradiction. If an accent is rhotic, or
the postvocalic "r" is present. |
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:05 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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Michael J Hardy wrote:
| Quote: | Areff (me@privacy.net) wrote:
Usually. But not in Minnes[o:]ta, ya?
Well, most Minnesotans do not speak with the stereotyped
Minnesota accent. That occurs in _northern_ Minnesota;
most Minnesotans live in _southern_ Minnesota. Half of
all Minnesotans live in the greater Mpls/StP area, in
_southern_ Minnesota. -- Mike Hardy
|
Very true, though there's a lot that (= BizarroTCE "who"?) live in the
greater Duluth [du:lu::::T] area, for example.
But the Twin Cities houses many, many people who are from the more
northerly regions of Minnes[o]ta, so they bring their local pronunciations
down with them. Lord knows what they make of Ray Wise's accent.
Speaking of which, a news story I read today claims that Minnesotans are
the healthiest people in the US. This seems quite bizarre to me, but I
guess fishing in sub-arctic temperatures can do a body good.
--
Steny '08! |
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Dylan Nicholson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:08 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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"John Lawler" <jlawler@umich.edu> wrote in message
news:T4Vjd.120$i6.53@news.itd.umich.edu...
| Quote: | Dylan Nicholson writes:
But then you mention that the "tense vowel phonemes"
/i/ and /u/ are diphthongs.
Can you give an example of where these are diphthongs?
So listen to an English speaker say
two other people
and
three other people
|
Well I am an English speaker, and yes, clearly when you say
any word ending in an 'ee' sound, and follow it with a
a word beginning with certain other vowel sounds, it's usual
to stick a "y" between them (surely not dissimilar to a non-
rhotic linking r, in say "I saw other people").
But "three" on its own doesn't have a diphthong, as far as I can
tell. Nor does, say, "three aardvarks".
| Quote: | Look, this is the wrong medium to discuss phonetics or phonology. Get
yourself a copy of Crystal's 'The Cambridge Encyclopedia of The English
Language' and read it cover to cover.
|
Hmm, thanks, but I can't say I'm that patient or sufficiently inspired. |
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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:37 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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"John Lawler" <jlawler@umich.edu> wrote in message
news:njSjd.100$i6.68@news.itd.umich.edu...
| Quote: | Jess Askin <nospam@dontbother.net> writes:
"Piotr Wyderski" <wyderskiREMOVE@ii.uni.wroc.pl> writes
don groves writes:
In Italian or Spanish, for example, the sound is cut off before
this begins to happen, so the vowels are short and pure.
Same in Polish. So, is it reasonable to classify "o" as
a vowel, since it is composed of two different sounds? :-)
In some words, in some dialects, it's pronounced as a single vowel sound,
at
other times it's a diphthong. In both cases, it would still be classified
as
a vowel, because it's a single letter.
No, it's not a letter. Letters occur in written languages.
Pronunciation occurs in spoken languages. The term you
want is 'phoneme', and the English phoneme /o/, like all
English tense vowel phonemes (/i/, /e/, /o/, /u/), is usually
pronounced as a diphthong.
It's still just one phoneme, though it may be spelled various
ways, and may even be represented phonemically by compound
symbols (BrEng /@U/, AmEng /ow/, etc.).
|
He was asking about "o". That's not a letter? |
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Dylan Nicholson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:41 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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"John Lawler" <jlawler@umich.edu> wrote in message
news:5OUjd.116$i6.51@news.itd.umich.edu...
| Quote: | Dylan Nicholson <wizofaus@hotmail.com> writes:
"Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> writes
Dylan Nicholson rakstija:
"John Lawler" writes:
Pronunciation occurs in spoken languages. The term you
want is 'phoneme', and the English phoneme /o/, like all
English tense vowel phonemes (/i/, /e/, /o/, /u/), is usually
pronounced as a diphthong.
How is /e/ a diphthong? The name of the vowel "a" obviously
is, as is true for i, o & u, but I unless I misunderstand what you
mean, 'e' doesn't have any change in vowel quality.
Indeed, I pronounce it virtually exactly the same as the pure 'i'
or 'y' vowel in, say, most romance languages.
The short (in duration) e is not a diphthong, but the longer one as in
"gate" sure is (unless you are Irish, I believe).
Yes of course, I wasn't really sure what John was referring to.
I can't say I understand fully why that sound would be called the tense
/e/ phoneme. Logically, it's an 'a' vowel to me (specifically, the name
of vowel 'a').
*Sigh*
Not 'logically'. You're talking about sounds, so it's
'phonetically'. And letters and their names don't refer
to sounds, but rather to writing.
See http://www.antimoon.com/how/pronunc-soundsipa.htm
for a pretty good representation of the International
Phonetic Alphabet, with symbols, examples, and recordings.
I'm pretty sure I *do* understand the difference between sounds and |
written symbols, and recognize that English is usually does a shoddy
job of matching the two. I'm just specifically asking about why the
phoneme for the vowel in 'gate' is called /e/. To me, it's a
diphthong from the "e" to "i" vowels as per Romance languages i.e.,
it would be spelled "gueit" in Spanish. I'd assumed then it a
phonemic transcription would be something like /geit/. The phoneme
would then be /ei/.
I gather however that, perhaps in some accents more than others, the
'e' sound itself differs slighty from that in "gate" and "get". In
my own accent, this is almost imperceptible, at least to my ears.
But for others it's obviously sufficiently different that when
transcribing Spanish words, they prefer to actually use an English
transcription of, for instance, "ay", then explain that it's cut short,
so as to remove the diphthong. But if I try this, I can't honestly
hear it as significantly different to just the 'eh' vowel in "get".
Maybe this "tense"/"lax" distinction is not especially strong in my
accent, or even Australian accents in general.
The one thing I'm fairly sure *is* universal among (native) English
speakers is that they don't like words to *end* in either a lax
or tense 'e' sound - it's always a diphthong to 'i' (~ee). Hence
"lahtay" for latte or "fortay" for forte. If I try to say
"lahteh" or "forteh" without the diphthong it sounds forced and
unnatural, as though I'm trying to speak another language that
I'm not familiar with. |
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:00 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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Dylan Nicholson wrote:
| Quote: | I'm pretty sure I *do* understand the difference between sounds and
written symbols, and recognize that English is usually does a shoddy
job of matching the two. I'm just specifically asking about why the
phoneme for the vowel in 'gate' is called /e/. To me, it's a
diphthong from the "e" to "i" vowels as per Romance languages i.e.,
it would be spelled "gueit" in Spanish. I'd assumed then it a
phonemic transcription would be something like /geit/. The phoneme
would then be /ei/.
|
Indeed, it's often presented as /eI/ (and our ASCII IPA guide presents it
as such). It's a convention, one way or the other. /e/ is simpler, /eI/
bears a closer relationship to how the vowel is actually pronounced in
many dominant dialects. (ObSparky: I'm speaking as a Non-Linguist, note.)
Aren't you Australian? In AusE, AIUI, the /eI/ vowel is pronounced as [&I]
-- that's that AusE vowel shift that makes "mate" sound to *some* (=
BizarroFrankE "some (no emphasis)") of us like "mite".
--
Steny '08! |
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Dylan Nicholson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:20 am
Post subject: Re: vowel lengths in English |
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"Areff" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:2vaq6fF2ji1sgU1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | Dylan Nicholson wrote:
I'm pretty sure I *do* understand the difference between sounds and
written symbols, and recognize that English is usually does a shoddy
job of matching the two. I'm just specifically asking about why the
phoneme for the vowel in 'gate' is called /e/. To me, it's a
diphthong from the "e" to "i" vowels as per Romance languages i.e.,
it would be spelled "gueit" in Spanish. I'd assumed then it a
phonemic transcription would be something like /geit/. The phoneme
would then be /ei/.
Indeed, it's often presented as /eI/ (and our ASCII IPA guide presents it
as such). It's a convention, one way or the other. /e/ is simpler, /eI/
bears a closer relationship to how the vowel is actually pronounced in
many dominant dialects. (ObSparky: I'm speaking as a Non-Linguist, note.)
Aren't you Australian? In AusE, AIUI, the /eI/ vowel is pronounced as [&I]
-- that's that AusE vowel shift that makes "mate" sound to *some* (=
BizarroFrankE "some (no emphasis)") of us like "mite".
Yes, but that only applies to broader Australian accents. For me, it's |
unquestionably /eI/. Broader accents also shift "&I" to almost an"oy"
sound, so that "line" almost sounds like "loin".
Ennywhy mite, gutta gau, oim doying furra beeuh. |
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