| Author |
Message |
Marius Hancu
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:38 pm
Post subject: sowin' wheat wi'out brinin' |
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Hello:
This must be dialect.
Now, in:
"If e'er I sow my wheat wi'out brinin', I'm a Dutchman."
does
"bringing"
mean
"harvesting" "bringing forth/produce"?
--------
[Maggie trying to convince Luke to read some of her books]
"Nay, Miss, I'n no opinion o' Dutchmen. There ben't much good i'
knowin' about them."
"But they're our fellow-creatures, Luke; we ought to know about our
fellow-creatures."
"Not much o' fellow-creaturs, I think, Miss; all I know--my old
master, as war a knowin' man, used to say, says he, 'If e'er I sow my
wheat wi'out brinin', I'm a Dutchman,' says he; an' that war as much
as to say as a Dutchman war a fool, or next door. Nay, nay, I aren't
goin' to bother mysen about Dutchmen. There's fools enoo, an' rogues
enoo, wi'out lookin' i' books for 'em."
The Mill on the Floss - George Eliot - Free Online Library
http://eliot.thefreelibrary.com/The-Mill-on-the-Floss/1-4
--------
Thank you,
Marius Hancu |
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lightbulb
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:02 am
Post subject: Re: sowin' wheat wi'out brinin' |
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"Marius Hancu" <NOSPAM@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:vtLPd.1329$Sw6.70904@weber.videotron.net...
| Quote: |
Hello:
This must be dialect.
Now, in:
"If e'er I sow my wheat wi'out brinin', I'm a Dutchman."
does
"bringing"
mean
"harvesting" "bringing forth/produce"?
|
Probably "brining", not "bringing."
_______________
From http://www.michiganbeets.com/lib/disease.cfm
Even as Hooke was writing his famous book in England, however, wheat seed
salvaged from a ship that sank in the sea grew free of smut. From that time
forward, farmers in England decreased the amount of smut in their wheat by
brining wheat seed in salt water. They were simply ignored by the scientific
community of their day - ignored by those who knew where babies came from,
but proclaimed that parasites on diseased plants originated without parents.
____________
Mike |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:58 am
Post subject: Re: sowin' wheat wi'out brinin' |
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Marius Hancu <NOSPAM@videotron.ca> wrote:
| Quote: | This must be dialect.
Now, in:
"If e'er I sow my wheat wi'out brinin', I'm a Dutchman."
does "bringing" mean "harvesting" "bringing forth/produce"?
--------
[snip]
"Not much o' fellow-creaturs, I think, Miss; all I know--my old
master, as war a knowin' man, used to say, says he, 'If e'er I sow my
wheat wi'out brinin', I'm a Dutchman,' says he; an' that war as much
as to say as a Dutchman war a fool, or next door.
|
Interesting question. He's saying that it would be stupid not to brine
wheat before sowing it. Not that that means anything to me directly --
applying brine? Soaking in it? By Googling on the key words, I find that
it was indeed an old recommended agricultural practice:
To prevent the smut in wheat steeping in brine, or
swimming the seed in a tub of brine, and skimming
off whatever swims is practised ; or putting down
the seed in a heap, and well saturating it, by
pouring on brine or urine, and afterwards well
drying it with quick lime is also practised, and the
result satisfactory ; the former method certainly
the best, were it not for that the brine, if fouled
by the smut dust, is not fit for re-using.
That's from:
A General View of the Agriculture of the County of Leicester ;
with Observations on the means of its improvement,
Published by order of The Board of Agriculture and Internal Improvement
By William Pitt, 1809
of Wolverhampton
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Marius Hancu
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:28 am
Post subject: Re: sowin' wheat wi'out brinin' |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | He's saying that it would be stupid not to brine
wheat before sowing it.
|
Yes, this must be it.
Thank you both.
Marius Hancu |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:32 am
Post subject: Re: sowin' wheat wi'out brinin' |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Marius Hancu <NOSPAM@videotron.ca> wrote:
This must be dialect.
Now, in:
"If e'er I sow my wheat wi'out brinin', I'm a Dutchman."
does "bringing" mean "harvesting" "bringing forth/produce"?
--------
[snip]
"Not much o' fellow-creaturs, I think, Miss; all I know--my old
master, as war a knowin' man, used to say, says he, 'If e'er I sow my
wheat wi'out brinin', I'm a Dutchman,' says he; an' that war as much
as to say as a Dutchman war a fool, or next door.
Interesting question. He's saying that it would be stupid not to brine
wheat before sowing it.
|
I'm not sure he is. The form "If X is / does Y then I'm a Z" where "I"
am clearly *not* "Z", is a standard way of saying "X isn't / doesn't Y".
So "If Tony Blair's a Socialist, I'm a Conservative" just means Tony
Blair isn't a Socialist. "If I sow my wheat without brining, I'm the
Archbishop of Canterbury".
And having belatedly decided to check OED I find:
" b. Phr. I'm a Dutchman, i.e. some one that I am not at all: as the
alternative clause to an assertion or questioned hypothesis. colloq.
1837 Thackeray Ravenswing iii, If there's a better-dressed man in
Europe+I'm a Dutchman. 1856 Reade Never too late lii, If there is as
much gold on the ground of New South Wales as will make me a
wedding-ring, I am a Dutchman. Mod. It is my brother, or I'm a
Dutchman. "
And under "stuff" there's "1885 Rider Haggard K. Solomon's Mines xvi, I
pointed to a series of worn flat slabs of stone+'if those are not tables
once used to wash the "stuff", I'm a Dutchman.' "
And that proves it or I'm a Hoosier.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:50 am
Post subject: Re: sowin' wheat wi'out brinin' |
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John Dean <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux wrote:
Marius Hancu <NOSPAM@videotron.ca> wrote:
"Not much o' fellow-creaturs, I think, Miss; all I know--my old
master, as war a knowin' man, used to say, says he, 'If e'er I sow my
wheat wi'out brinin', I'm a Dutchman,' says he; an' that war as much
as to say as a Dutchman war a fool, or next door.
Interesting question. He's saying that it would be stupid not to brine
wheat before sowing it.
I'm not sure he is. The form "If X is / does Y then I'm a Z" where "I"
am clearly *not* "Z", is a standard way of saying "X isn't / doesn't Y".
So "If Tony Blair's a Socialist, I'm a Conservative" just means Tony
Blair isn't a Socialist. "If I sow my wheat without brining, I'm the
Archbishop of Canterbury".
And having belatedly decided to check OED I find:
" b. Phr. I'm a Dutchman, i.e. some one that I am not at all: as the
alternative clause to an assertion or questioned hypothesis. colloq.
1837 Thackeray Ravenswing iii, If there's a better-dressed man in
Europe+I'm a Dutchman. 1856 Reade Never too late lii, If there is as
much gold on the ground of New South Wales as will make me a
wedding-ring, I am a Dutchman. Mod. It is my brother, or I'm a
Dutchman. "
And under "stuff" there's "1885 Rider Haggard K. Solomon's Mines xvi, I
pointed to a series of worn flat slabs of stone+'if those are not tables
once used to wash the "stuff", I'm a Dutchman.' "
And that proves it or I'm a Hoosier.
|
I agree that the *usual* meaning of "X is true or I'm a Dutchman" is "I
emphatically believe that X is true" because "I am most emphatically not
a Dutchman."
However, I was taking my cue in this particular case from "that war as
much as to say as a Dutchman war a fool, or next door." The author is
giving us that much for free.
Plus the fact that brining *is* a recommended practice, not the opposite
of such.
Then I believe it hangs together: "If ever I sow my wheat without
brining, I am a fool. I would be a fool to sow my wheat without
brining."
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:05 am
Post subject: Re: sowin' wheat wi'out brinin' |
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"Marius Hancu" <NOSPAM@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:vtLPd.1329$Sw6.70904@weber.videotron.net...
| Quote: |
Hello:
This must be dialect.
|
No doubt. But does anybody know what dialect? Where exactly is the Floss,
anyway? And do they have exceptionally good dental health there?
| Quote: |
Now, in:
"If e'er I sow my wheat wi'out brinin', I'm a Dutchman."
does
"bringing"
mean
"harvesting" "bringing forth/produce"?
--------
[Maggie trying to convince Luke to read some of her books]
"Nay, Miss, I'n no opinion o' Dutchmen. There ben't much good i'
knowin' about them."
"But they're our fellow-creatures, Luke; we ought to know about our
fellow-creatures."
"Not much o' fellow-creaturs, I think, Miss; all I know--my old
master, as war a knowin' man, used to say, says he, 'If e'er I sow my
wheat wi'out brinin', I'm a Dutchman,' says he; an' that war as much
as to say as a Dutchman war a fool, or next door. Nay, nay, I aren't
goin' to bother mysen about Dutchmen. There's fools enoo, an' rogues
enoo, wi'out lookin' i' books for 'em."
The Mill on the Floss - George Eliot - Free Online Library
http://eliot.thefreelibrary.com/The-Mill-on-the-Floss/1-4
--------
Thank you,
Marius Hancu |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:25 am
Post subject: Re: sowin' wheat wi'out brinin' |
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Jess Askin wrote:
| Quote: | "Marius Hancu" <NOSPAM@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:vtLPd.1329$Sw6.70904@weber.videotron.net...
Hello:
This must be dialect.
No doubt. But does anybody know what dialect? Where exactly is the
Floss, anyway? And do they have exceptionally good dental health
there?
[...] |
They have excellent grinders. She was from Warwickshire, and I think
all the books are set in the English Midlands, in the next county to
Borsetshire. Nuneaton is called "Milby", and "Middlemarch" is
Coventry, no?
Mike. |
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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:00 am
Post subject: Re: sowin' wheat wi'out brinin' |
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"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:379re2F56r2qkU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | Jess Askin wrote:
"Marius Hancu" <NOSPAM@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:vtLPd.1329$Sw6.70904@weber.videotron.net...
Hello:
This must be dialect.
No doubt. But does anybody know what dialect? Where exactly is the
Floss, anyway? And do they have exceptionally good dental health
there?
[...]
They have excellent grinders. She was from Warwickshire, and I think
all the books are set in the English Midlands, in the next county to
Borsetshire.
|
Wow -- I didn't think at this point there was an English county I hadn't
heard of. Amusing that of the first two items on Google, one is the
Borsetshire Hunt (soon to be out of business, I suppose) and the second is a
proposal that the public library in Borsetshire should stock more erotic
fiction on its shelves. There'll always be -- something or other, I suppose. |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:16 am
Post subject: Re: sowin' wheat wi'out brinin' |
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Jess Askin wrote:
| Quote: | "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:379re2F56r2qkU1@individual.net...
Jess Askin wrote:
"Marius Hancu" <NOSPAM@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:vtLPd.1329$Sw6.70904@weber.videotron.net...
Hello:
This must be dialect.
No doubt. But does anybody know what dialect? Where exactly is the
Floss, anyway? And do they have exceptionally good dental health
there?
[...]
They have excellent grinders. She was from Warwickshire, and I think
all the books are set in the English Midlands, in the next county to
Borsetshire.
Wow -- I didn't think at this point there was an English county I
hadn't heard of. Amusing that of the first two items on Google, one
is the Borsetshire Hunt (soon to be out of business, I suppose) and
the second is a proposal that the public library in Borsetshire
should stock more erotic fiction on its shelves. There'll always be
-- something or other, I suppose.
|
Toxophilites?
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Jitze Couperus
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:59 pm
Post subject: Re: sowin' wheat wi'out brinin' |
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On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:32:32 -0000, "John Dean"
<john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
| Quote: | And having belatedly decided to check OED I find:
" b. Phr. I'm a Dutchman, i.e. some one that I am not at all: as the
alternative clause to an assertion or questioned hypothesis. colloq.
|
Well if that anin't a purty definition, I'll be a monkey's uncle.
Until this point I had not been aware of the connection between
lowlanders and avuncular simians.
I have however often wondered about the connection between
a provincial archbishop and the grouping that includes
anthropoids and prosimians. (Is a prelate also a primate?)
Jitze |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:02 pm
Post subject: fictional counties [WAS: sowin' wheat wi'out brinin'] |
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Jess Askin <dontbother@nospam.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:379re2F56r2qkU1@individual.net...
Jess Askin wrote:
"Marius Hancu" <NOSPAM@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:vtLPd.1329$Sw6.70904@weber.videotron.net...
Hello:
This must be dialect.
No doubt. But does anybody know what dialect? Where exactly is the
Floss, anyway? And do they have exceptionally good dental health
there?
[...]
They have excellent grinders. She was from Warwickshire, and I think
all the books are set in the English Midlands, in the next county to
Borsetshire.
Wow -- I didn't think at this point there was an English county I hadn't
heard of. Amusing that of the first two items on Google, one is the
Borsetshire Hunt (soon to be out of business, I suppose) and the second is a
proposal that the public library in Borsetshire should stock more erotic
fiction on its shelves. There'll always be -- something or other, I suppose.
|
I never knew about Borsetshire, but I knew of Barsetshire. I see that
Wikipedia has a list of fictional counties:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_counties
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:54 pm
Post subject: Re: sowin' wheat wi'out brinin' |
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Jess Askin wrote:
| Quote: | "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in [...]
Borsetshire.
Wow -- I didn't think at this point there was an English county I
hadn't heard of. Amusing that of the first two items on Google, one
is the Borsetshire Hunt (soon to be out of business, I suppose) and
the second is a proposal that the public library in Borsetshire
should stock more erotic fiction on its shelves. There'll always be
-- something or other, I suppose.
|
Pint o' Shire's, please Jess.
If it hasn't been done already, it would be nice of somebody to make
a catalogue raisonné of fictitious counties.
Mike. |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:51 am
Post subject: Re: sowin' wheat wi'out brinin' |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | John Dean <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
Donna Richoux wrote:
Marius Hancu <NOSPAM@videotron.ca> wrote:
"Not much o' fellow-creaturs, I think, Miss; all I know--my old
master, as war a knowin' man, used to say, says he, 'If e'er I
sow my
wheat wi'out brinin', I'm a Dutchman,' says he; an' that war as
much
as to say as a Dutchman war a fool, or next door.
.... |
| Quote: | I agree that the *usual* meaning of "X is true or I'm a Dutchman" is
"I
emphatically believe that X is true" because "I am most emphatically
not
a Dutchman."
However, I was taking my cue in this particular case from "that war
as
much as to say as a Dutchman war a fool, or next door." The author is
giving us that much for free.
Plus the fact that brining *is* a recommended practice, not the
opposite
of such.
Then I believe it hangs together: "If ever I sow my wheat without
brining, I am a fool. I would be a fool to sow my wheat without
brining."
|
I don't think the author means us to rely on Luke. It looks to me like
we're invited to smile at his misunderstanding of his old master's
phrase, just as we are at his prejudice.
--
Jerry Friedman |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:21 am
Post subject: Re: sowin' wheat wi'out brinin' |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux wrote:
John Dean <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
Donna Richoux wrote:
Marius Hancu <NOSPAM@videotron.ca> wrote:
"Not much o' fellow-creaturs, I think, Miss; all I know--my old
master, as war a knowin' man, used to say, says he, 'If e'er I
sow my wheat wi'out brinin', I'm a Dutchman,' says he; an' that
war as much as to say as a Dutchman war a fool, or next door.
...
I agree that the *usual* meaning of "X is true or I'm a Dutchman" is
"I emphatically believe that X is true" because "I am most
emphatically not a Dutchman."
However, I was taking my cue in this particular case from "that war
as much as to say as a Dutchman war a fool, or next door." The
author is giving us that much for free.
Plus the fact that brining *is* a recommended practice, not the
opposite of such.
Then I believe it hangs together: "If ever I sow my wheat without
brining, I am a fool. I would be a fool to sow my wheat without
brining."
I don't think the author means us to rely on Luke. It looks to me
like we're invited to smile at his misunderstanding of his old
master's phrase, just as we are at his prejudice.
|
That's my take on it.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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