flaunt/flout redux

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howard richler
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:43 am Post subject: flaunt/flout redux

Garner's Modern Eng Usage says that some dictionaries "have thrown in the towel" and now list flaunt/flout as synonyms. Could someone tell me which dictionaries do this? I have approx 10 dictionaries and none of them treat them as synonyms.

Arnold Zwicky
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:43 am Post subject: Re: flaunt/flout redux

in article <feb755de.0411061043.60121c41@posting.google.com>,
howard richler <hrichler@sympatico.ca> asks:

Quote:

Garner's Modern Eng Usage says that some dictionaries "have thrown
in the towel" and now list flaunt/flout as synonyms. Could someone
tell me which dictionaries do this? I have approx 10 dictionaries
and none of them treat them as synonyms.

garner is just being (typically) hyperbolic here. i don't think
there's any dictionary that lists them as synonyms. but a number of
dictionaries -- AHD4, for example -- note that some people [or, even,
many people] use "flaunt" to mean 'flout, display contempt for'.
garner is treating the mention of this usage (which seems to be about
a hundred years old, though really only widespread for the past 50 or
60 years) as approval of it. this despite the fact that even the
very "permissive" AHD4 explicitly warns you that it's widely seen as
erroneous and so is to be avoided. MWDEU has a similar warning, but
as usual provides a thoughtful account of how the usage came into
being -- just the sort of thing that causes garner to excoriate MWDEU:
dammit, they should be stamping it out, not sympathetically explaining
why people use it!

arnold

Harvey Van Sickle
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:54 am Post subject: Re: flaunt/flout redux

On 06 Nov 2004, howard richler wrote

Quote:

Garner's Modern Eng Usage says that some dictionaries "have thrown
in the towel" and now list flaunt/flout as synonyms. Could
someone tell me which dictionaries do this? I have approx 10
dictionaries and none of them treat them as synonyms.

Collins makes a usage note that _flaunt_ is "sometimes wrongly used"
for _flout_, but in my book acknowledging that they're used that way
doesn't constitute listing them as synonyms.

--
Cheers, Harvey

Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van)

Mike Lyle
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 2:34 am Post subject: Re: flaunt/flout redux

Harvey Van Sickle wrote:

Quote:

On 06 Nov 2004, howard richler wrote

Garner's Modern Eng Usage says that some dictionaries "have thrown
in the towel" and now list flaunt/flout as synonyms. Could
someone tell me which dictionaries do this? I have approx 10
dictionaries and none of them treat them as synonyms.

Collins makes a usage note that _flaunt_ is "sometimes wrongly
used"
for _flout_, but in my book acknowledging that they're used that
way
doesn't constitute listing them as synonyms.

COD9 says "should not be confused with". MW Online, though, has not
only caved in but even written to justify the solecism, with only the
warning "If you use it, however, you should be aware that many people
will consider it a mistake." So it seems that American dictionaries
may be the culprits. (Cue linguistics Brahmin saying it doesn't
matter if low-caste people are encouraged to make themselves
unintelligible, and "Take the ladder away, Jack: I'm all right!")

I swear by my fave Egyptian god: Ptah!

Mike.

Ron Hardin
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:34 am Post subject: Re: flaunt/flout redux

The distinction between flaunt and flout is moot. -- Ron Hardin rhhardin@mindspring.com On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

Wood Avens
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 4:23 am Post subject: Re: flaunt/flout redux

On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 19:34:36 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
<mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Quote:

Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
On 06 Nov 2004, howard richler wrote

Garner's Modern Eng Usage says that some dictionaries "have thrown
in the towel" and now list flaunt/flout as synonyms. Could
someone tell me which dictionaries do this? I have approx 10
dictionaries and none of them treat them as synonyms.

Collins makes a usage note that _flaunt_ is "sometimes wrongly
used"
for _flout_, but in my book acknowledging that they're used that
way
doesn't constitute listing them as synonyms.

COD9 says "should not be confused with". MW Online, though, has not
only caved in but even written to justify the solecism, with only the
warning "If you use it, however, you should be aware that many people
will consider it a mistake."

It's never used the other way round (flout mistakenly used for
flaunt), though, is it? If it is, I've never come across it. I'm
wondering why not.

--

Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @

Raymond S. Wise
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 4:45 am Post subject: Re: flaunt/flout redux

"Arnold Zwicky" <zwicky@Turing.Stanford.EDU> wrote in message
news:cmj8va$5se$1@news.Stanford.EDU...

Quote:

in article <feb755de.0411061043.60121c41@posting.google.com>,
howard richler <hrichler@sympatico.ca> asks:

Garner's Modern Eng Usage says that some dictionaries "have thrown
in the towel" and now list flaunt/flout as synonyms. Could someone
tell me which dictionaries do this? I have approx 10 dictionaries
and none of them treat them as synonyms.

garner is just being (typically) hyperbolic here. i don't think
there's any dictionary that lists them as synonyms. but a number of
dictionaries -- AHD4, for example -- note that some people [or, even,
many people] use "flaunt" to mean 'flout, display contempt for'.
garner is treating the mention of this usage (which seems to be about
a hundred years old, though really only widespread for the past 50 or
60 years) as approval of it. this despite the fact that even the
very "permissive" AHD4 explicitly warns you that it's widely seen as
erroneous and so is to be avoided. MWDEU has a similar warning, but
as usual provides a thoughtful account of how the usage came into
being -- just the sort of thing that causes garner to excoriate MWDEU:
dammit, they should be stamping it out, not sympathetically explaining
why people use it!

arnold

While MWCD11 does not formally list "flout" and "flaunt" as synonyms, the
definitions it gives for a transitive sense of each verb appears to show
them to be de facto synonyms:

For "flout": "to treat with contemptuous disregard : SCORN <_flouting_ the
rules>"

For "flaunt": "to treat contemptuously <_flaunted_ the rules -- Louis
Untermeyer>"

The etymologies given for "flaunt" in the *Encarta World English
Dictionary,* North American ed., and MWCD11 are quite different:

From

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861612075

"Mid-16th century. Origin unknown: perhaps a blend of flout and vaunt."

From MWCD11: "perhaps of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Norse _flana_ to
rush around."

--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Donna Richoux
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:17 am Post subject: Re: flaunt/flout redux

Ron Hardin <rhhardin@mindspring.com> wrote:

Quote:

The distinction between flaunt and flout is moot.

Or maunt.

Martin Ambuhl
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:32 am Post subject: Re: flaunt/flout redux

howard richler wrote:

Quote:

Garner's Modern Eng Usage says that some dictionaries "have thrown in
the towel" and now list flaunt/flout as synonyms. Could someone tell
me which dictionaries do this? I have approx 10 dictionaries and none
of them treat them as synonyms.

From MWCD11:
Main Entry:flaunt
[...]
transitive verb
2 : to treat contemptuously *flaunted the rules — Louis Untermeyer*
[...]
usage Although transitive sense 2 of flaunt undoubtedly arose from
confusion with flout, the contexts in which it appears cannot be
called substandard *meting out punishment to the occasional mavericks
who operate rigged games, tolerate rowdyism, or otherwise flaunt the
law — Oscar Lewis* *observed with horror the flaunting of their
authority in the suburbs, where menTput up buildings that had no place
at all in a Christian commonwealth — Marchette Chute* *in our
profession very rarely do we publicly chastise a colleague who has
flaunted our most basic principles — R. T. Blackburn, AAUP Bulletin*.
If you use it, however, you should be aware that many people will
consider it a mistake. Use of flout in the sense of flaunt 1 is found
occasionally **The proper pronunciation,* the blonde said, flouting
her refined upbringing, *is pree feeks* — Mike Royko*.

The COD10 usage enty for "flaunt" suggests that a usage that accounts
for 20% of the instances of a word is an "error":
– USAGE It is a common error to use flaunt when flout is intended.
Flaunt means ‘display ostentatiously’, while flout means ‘openly
disregard (a rule or convention)’. Around 20 per cent of the uses of
flaunt in the British National Corpus are incorrect in this respect.

In COD11 this note has been cut back, removing the self-indictment:
– USAGE It is a common error to use flaunt when flout is intended.
Flaunt means ‘display ostentatiously’, while flout means ‘openly
disregard (a rule or convention)’.

SOED5 is not so prescriptivist (s.v. 'flaunt'):
3. verb trans. Flout. (Often considered to be erron.) E20.
Times The Prime Minister..referred to 'flaunting' the regulations.

OED2 seems to somewhere between SOED5 and COD10/11, at least since 1993:

flaunt, v. Add: 4. In the sense of flout v. 1.
This usage clearly arose by confusion, and is widely considered
erroneous.
1923 C. Garstin Owl's House xv. 161 He achieved strong local
popularity, a priceless asset to a man who lives by flaunting
the law.
1934 Elliott & Merrill Social Disorganization xxv. 573 When
self-support appears easy, the temptation to flaunt family
control is very great.
1938 N. Coward Stately Homes of Eng. in Operette (libretto) I. vii.
55 Although we sometimes flaunt our family conventions, Our good
intentions Mustn't be misconstrued.
1973 Times 25 Jan. 17/6 The Prime Minister in a broadcast on
Wednesday (January 17)..referred to ‘flaunting’ the regulations.
1987 Listener 24 Sept. 25/1 Fanny Parkes, an intrepid type who
flaunted convention by wearing trousers and sailing up the
Jumna..accompanied only by a native crew.

Peter T. Daniels
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:33 am Post subject: Re: flaunt/flout redux

Raymond S. Wise wrote:

Quote:

If you had quoted the full entries, rather than cherry-picking, you
would have noted that the "flaunt" definition is the last one given,
hence the most recent. (That it's backed by an Untermeyer quote is
indeed surprising; didn't he write usage guides? wasn't he on "usage
panels"?)
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net

Raymond S. Wise
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:08 am Post subject: Re: flaunt/flout redux

"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:418D5155.4EA7@worldnet.att.net...

Quote:

Raymond S. Wise wrote:

While MWCD11 does not formally list "flout" and "flaunt" as synonyms,
the
definitions it gives for a transitive sense of each verb appears to show
them to be de facto synonyms:

For "flout": "to treat with contemptuous disregard : SCORN <_flouting_
the
rules>"

For "flaunt": "to treat contemptuously <_flaunted_ the rules -- Louis
Untermeyer>"

If you had quoted the full entries, rather than cherry-picking, you
would have noted that the "flaunt" definition is the last one given,
hence the most recent. (That it's backed by an Untermeyer quote is
indeed surprising; didn't he write usage guides? wasn't he on "usage
panels"?)

I'm surprised at your response. It makes no sense unless you believe
"synonym" to mean "exact synonym." I'm sure you are aware that there are
very few exact synonyms in English. There is thus little reason to refer to
them and consequently no reason to assume that the word "synonym" is being
used for "exact synonym" except when it is explicitly stated that it is
being so used.

Your "cherry-picking" charge was thus baseless. I cited the meanings which
were relevant to the matter under discussion.

--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Bill Bonde ( ``And the La
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 9:08 am Post subject: Re: flaunt/flout redux

Mike Lyle wrote:

Quote:

--
The Republicans are going for the Dem jugular in 2008 with Pataki or
Giuliani for president, putting New York state in play, and Condi or
Colin for vice president, putting the black American vote into play. The
Dem response is to run Hillary. Hilarious.

Adrian Bailey
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 9:19 am Post subject: Re: flaunt/flout redux

"Bill Bonde ( ``And the Lamb lies down on Broadway'' )"
<stderr2@backpacker.com> wrote in message
news:418D8388.D9CB2DD6@backpacker.com...

Quote:

I'll try and believe that your alright.

_beleive_

Adrian

CyberCypher
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 9:33 am Post subject: Re: flaunt/flout redux

Raymond S. Wise wrote on 07 Nov 2004:

Quote:

"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Raymond S. Wise wrote:
While MWCD11 does not formally list "flout" and "flaunt" as
synonyms, the definitions it gives for a
transitive sense of each verb appears to show
them to be de facto synonyms:

For "flout": "to treat with contemptuous disregard : SCORN
_flouting_ the rules>"

For "flaunt": "to treat contemptuously <_flaunted_ the rules --
Louis Untermeyer>"

If you had quoted the full entries, rather than cherry-picking,
you would have noted that the "flaunt" definition is the last one
given, hence the most recent. (That it's backed by an Untermeyer
quote is indeed surprising; didn't he write usage guides? wasn't
he on "usage panels"?)

I'm surprised at your response. It makes no sense unless you
believe "synonym" to mean "exact synonym."

The usage note says "Although transitive sense 2 of flaunt
undoubtedly arose from confusion with flout, the contexts in which it
appears cannot be called substandard." This is more than an
acknowledgment that the synonymity of "lout" and "flaunt" for some
writers, even educated ones who ought to know better, is more than a
"de facto synonym".

Your charge that Peter or anyone else as knowledgeable about language
as he is might believe that "synonym" means "exact synonym" is simply
absurd and a straw-man distraction totally unworthy of you.

Quote:

I'm sure you are aware
that there are very few exact synonyms in English. There is thus
little reason to refer to them and consequently no reason to
assume that the word "synonym" is being used for "exact synonym"
except when it is explicitly stated that it is being so used.

Your "cherry-picking" charge was thus baseless. I cited the
meanings which were relevant to the matter under discussion.

I agree with Peter here. You didn't give enough info. Looking at the
entire entry is much more informative, and here is the full entry in
MW11 for everyone to see.

Main Entry:flaunt
Function:verb
Etymology:perhaps of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Norse flana to
rush around
Date:1566

intransitive verb
1 : to display or obtrude oneself to public notice *a great
flaunting crowd — Charles Dickens*
2 : to wave or flutter showily *the flag flaunts in the breeze*
transitive verb
1 : to display ostentatiously or impudently : PARADE *flaunting his
superiority*
2 : to treat contemptuously *flaunted the rules — Louis Untermeyer*
synonyms see SHOW
–flaunt noun
–flaunt£ing£ly \*fl*n-ti*-l*, *fl*n-\ adverb
–flaunty \-t*\ adjective
usage: Although transitive sense 2 of flaunt undoubtedly arose from
confusion with flout, the contexts in which it appears cannot be
called substandard *meting out punishment to the occasional
mavericks who operate rigged games, tolerate rowdyism, or otherwise
flaunt the law — Oscar Lewis* *observed with horror the flaunting of
their authority in the suburbs, where men ... put up buildings that
had no place at all in a Christian commonwealth — Marchette Chute*
*in our profession ... very rarely do we publicly chastise a
colleague who has flaunted our most basic principles — R. T.
Blackburn, AAUP Bulletin*. If you use it, however, you should be
aware that many people will consider it a mistake. Use of flout in
the sense of flaunt 1 is found occasionally **The proper
pronunciation,* the blonde said, flouting her refined upbringing, *is
pree feeks* — Mike Royko*.

And here is the AHD4 entry, with usage note. Please notice the
difference in the way the words are treated, Raymond: AHD4 does not
include "to treat contemptuously" as an acceptable definition of the
word but as a "Usage Problem".

flaunt (flônt)

v. flaunt·ed, flaunt·ing, flaunts
v.tr.
1. To exhibit ostentatiously or shamelessly: flaunts his knowledge.
See Synonyms at show.
2. Usage Problem: To show contempt for; scorn.
v.intr.
1. To parade oneself ostentatiously; show oneself off.
2. To wave grandly: pennants flaunting in the wind.

[Origin unknown.]

flaunter n.

flauntingly adv.

Usage Note: Flaunt as a transitive verb means "to exhibit
ostentatiously": She flaunted her wealth. To flout is "to show
contempt for": She flouted the proprieties. For some time now flaunt
has been used in the sense "to show contempt for," even by educated
users of English. This usage is still widely seen as erroneous and is
best avoided.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth
Edition. Copyright© 2004, 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published
by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.

Skitt
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 10:09 am Post subject: Re: flaunt/flout redux

CyberCypher quoted and commented:

Quote:

Usage Note: Flaunt as a transitive verb means "to exhibit
ostentatiously": She flaunted her wealth. To flout is "to show
contempt for": She flouted the proprieties. For some time now flaunt
has been used in the sense "to show contempt for," even by educated
users of English. This usage is still widely seen as erroneous and is
best avoided.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth
Edition. Copyright© 2004, 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published
by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

About those "educated users of English" -- they may well be educated, but
they are not necessarily "users educated in the English language". I have
known many educated users of English who can hardly put a sentence together,
and misuse of these kinds of words is standard for them.

I have seen dictionaries present quotes from well-known writers as examples
of usage. I contend that being a well-known writer does not automatically
entitle one to set usage standards. After all, writers are often well known
for what they express, not for how they do it.

A beautifully told story may well have some language irregularities that are
purely part of the teller's idiolect. After that, others may copy them, and
so it goes.

--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/

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