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Steve Hayes
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:18 pm
Post subject: Cherry picking (Was: Re: flaunt/flout redux) |
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On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:58:10 -0500, Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl@earthlink.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux wrote:
Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Raymond S. Wise wrote:
[snip discussion of "flaunt/flout"]
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Subject line changed accordingly.
| Quote: |
Your "cherry-picking" charge was thus baseless. I cited the meanings which
were relevant to the matter under discussion.
But not the usage note that Donna cited.
Not me. Musta been someone else. Looks like Martin.
Musta been someone else. For someone to have charged "cherry-picking"
of my posting would require that someone to have been a bit unhinged.
|
What is "cherry picking"?
A "cherry picker" to me is one of those lorries with a platform for people
working on overhead electricity supplies.
Perhaps similar things are usied for picking edible cherries.
I believe in AmE "cherry" is part of the female pudendum.
In SAfE "cherry" is part of the male pudendum.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
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Steve Hayes
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:18 pm
Post subject: Re: flaunt/flout redux |
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On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 14:39:27 +0100, trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) wrote:
| Quote: | Everyone makes mistakes -- journalists, editors, lexicographers -- but I
think this is the same sort of question as whether dictionaries can
distinguish among a typographical error, a common misspelling, or a new
widespread variant. It depends on overall numbers and proportions. You
have to trust that when a dictionary gives definitions and citations, it
is basing its selection on a representative sample, and that each
citation printed represents many more index cards stuck in the pigeon
hole.
|
Oy!
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
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Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Cherry picking (Was: Re: flaunt/flout redux) |
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Jacques Guy kirjoitti:
| Quote: | Steve Hayes wrote:
I believe in AmE "cherry" is part of the female pudendum.
It means virginity, that's all.
|
[...]
And, to be specific, "cherry" refers to a female's vaginal virginity as
well as to a male's anal virginity (in gay lingo).
--
Reinhold (Rey) Aman, Philologist
and
President, The László Löwenstein Fan Club
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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Cherry picking (Was: Re: flaunt/flout redux) |
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"Steve Hayes" <hayesmstw@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:418efdf7.259456640@news.saix.net...
| Quote: | On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:58:10 -0500, Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl@earthlink.net
wrote:
Donna Richoux wrote:
Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Raymond S. Wise wrote:
[snip discussion of "flaunt/flout"]
Subject line changed accordingly.
Your "cherry-picking" charge was thus baseless. I cited the meanings
which
were relevant to the matter under discussion.
But not the usage note that Donna cited.
Not me. Musta been someone else. Looks like Martin.
Musta been someone else. For someone to have charged "cherry-picking"
of my posting would require that someone to have been a bit unhinged.
What is "cherry picking"?
A "cherry picker" to me is one of those lorries with a platform for people
working on overhead electricity supplies.
Perhaps similar things are usied for picking edible cherries.
I believe in AmE "cherry" is part of the female pudendum.
In SAfE "cherry" is part of the male pudendum.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop
uk |
From MWCD11
[quote]
Main Entry: *cher·ry-pick* Pronunciation Guide
[...]
Function: verb
Date: 1965
_intransitive verb_ *:* to select the best or most desirable
_transitive verb_ *:* to select as being the best or most desirable; _also_
*:* to select the best or most desirable from <_cherry-picked_ the art
collection>
[end quote]
As Peter T. Daniels used the term in the present discussion, he means that I
chose to quote information which agreed with what I was arguing and chose
not to quote information which disagreed with what I was arguing.
I was arguing that, although MWCD11 does not explicitly say that "flaunt" is
a synonym of "flout," it uses such a similar definition for each one that
they could be considered synonyms on that basis alone.
As I said in reply to Peter, his response made no sense to me unless he
believed that "flaunt" must be an exact synonym of "flout." I had no idea
that the usage note was part of the discussion. I now understand that it was
for him not a question of "flaunt" and "flout" being exact synonyms, but
having looked once again at the usage note, I conclude that Peter is *still*
wrong. Here's the usage note, complete:
[quote]
*usage* Although transitive sense 2 of _flaunt_ undoubtedly arose from
confusion with _flout,_ the contexts in which it appears cannot be called
substandard <meting out punishment to the occasional mavericks who operate
rigged games, tolerate rowdyism, or otherwise _flaunt_ the law -- Oscar
Lewis> <observed with horror the _flaunting_ of their authority in the
suburbs, where men...put up buildings that had no place at all in a
Christian commonwealth -- Marchette Chute> <in our profession...very rarely
do we publicly chastise a colleague who has _flaunted_ our most basic
principles -- R. T. Blackburn, _AAUP Bulletin_>. If you use it, however, you
should be aware that many people will consider it a mistake. Use of _flout_
in the sense of _flaunt_ 1 is found occasionally <"The proper
pronunciation," the blonde said, _flouting_ her refined upbringing, "is pree
feeks" -- Mike Royko>.
[end quote]
Nothing in that usage note indicates that the editors consider "flaunt" to
be anything other than a standard usage. If they had labeled the transitive
sense 2 of "flaunt" as "nonstandard"--and the editors of the modern
Collegiate editions, unlike the editors of Webster's Third, certainly do not
hesitate to make use of that label--I would have seen that as evidence that
the terms are not synonyms. But lacking that label, and with the usage note
as given and the definitions which I cited as given, the opinion that I was
"cherry-picking" is absurd and, as I indicated previously, baseless.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
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Aidan Kehoe
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:20 pm
Post subject: Re: flaunt/flout redux |
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Ar an seachtú lá de mí na Samhain, scríobh howard richler:
| Quote: | I googled "flaunt authority" vs "flout authority."
Depressingly, the former is almost as popular as the latter - 19,000 vs
24,000
|
And some of the former usages are legitimate;
http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/aquoprimum.html
"The most serious is that some households of the great have employed a Jew
as "Superintendent-of-the-Household"; in this capacity, they not only
administer domestic and economic matters, but they also ceaselessly exhibit
and flaunt authority over the Christians they are living with."
http://www.gracenotes.info/colossians/col036.html
"Too much discipline causes frustration as well. Some Christians over react
to the permissiveness of society and flaunt authority to their children."
But, then, on the next page, and the page after, and the page after, it's
purely in the other sense. Bah.
--
Like the early Christians, Marx expected the millennium very soon; like
their successors, his have been disappointed--once more, the world has shown
itself recalcitrant to a tidy formula embodying the hopes of some section of
mankind. (Russell) |
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Aidan Kehoe
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:03 pm
Post subject: Re: flaunt/flout redux |
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Ar an t-ochtú lá de mí na Samhain, scríobh Jacques Guy:
| Quote: | But, then, on the next page, and the page after, and the page after,
it's purely in the other sense. Bah.
How about an example or two?
|
T'as du mal à utiliser le meilleur outil de notre âge? Bigre, je ne peux le
croire. Quand meme:
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1444599/06192001/pennywise.jhtml
'Pennywise Flaunt Authority On New Record
WEST California, HOLLYWOOD When Pennywise singer Jim Lindberg shouts "F---
authority!" on his band's new single, he's counting on fans to use some
discretion before they make any moves or better yet, listen to the rest of
the lyrics.
"The idea behind the song is to get people motivated and let their voices be
heard when a WTO [World Trade Organization] protest comes or when President
Bush gets rid of subsidized Planned Parenthood," Lindberg said. '
http://www.plattecountylandmark.com/Article867.htm
'Platte County Prosecutor Eric Zahnd said "When students flaunt authority to
the point that a police officer must get involved, the matter ceases to
become a simple school discipline matter and becomes an issue that the
entire community must confront."
http://www.celtic-connection.com/features/feat02-04_2_trav.html
(Wherein "fag" is not to be taken in its American sense, or even in its
English public-school sense.)
'My introduction to fags was courtesy of Pascal Ayres, a quiet and cheerful
young man of 16, who gave me my first cigarette and introduced my lungs to
nicotine. It was traumatic. After just a couple of puffs I puked all over
the historic Martello Tower in Sandycove, the one made famous when James
Joyce was a resident.
Pascal really should have known better. He was four years older me. I was a
mere child, easily seduced by an opportunity to flaunt authority. But, even
as I was throwing up, Pascal was encouraging me to smoke Try another one
another.'
--
Like the early Christians, Marx expected the millennium very soon; like
their successors, his have been disappointed--once more, the world has shown
itself recalcitrant to a tidy formula embodying the hopes of some section of
mankind. (Russell) |
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Murray Arnow
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Cherry picking (Was: Re: flaunt/flout redux) |
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[Trimmed to AUE]
Reinhold (Rey) Aman wrote:
| Quote: | Jacques Guy kirjoitti:
Steve Hayes wrote:
I believe in AmE "cherry" is part of the female pudendum.
It means virginity, that's all.
[...]
And, to be specific, "cherry" refers to a female's vaginal virginity as
well as to a male's anal virginity (in gay lingo).
|
In my youth, the phrase "bust her cherry" meant rupturing the hymen. |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Cherry picking (Was: Re: flaunt/flout redux) |
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Raymond LOVES to argue about questions that never even occurred to his
antagonists.
In a discussion of the (dying) difference between "flout" and "flaunt,"
he quoted only the most recent definition of "flaunt," which says it is
(has become) the same as "flout."
This is not an honest marshalling of evidence concerning the distinction
and its disappearance.
That's all.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Cherry picking (Was: Re: flaunt/flout redux) |
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Reinhold (Rey) Aman wrote:
| Quote: |
Jacques Guy kirjoitti:
Steve Hayes wrote:
I believe in AmE "cherry" is part of the female pudendum.
It means virginity, that's all.
[...]
And, to be specific, "cherry" refers to a female's vaginal virginity as
well as to a male's anal virginity (in gay lingo).
|
What makes it "gay lingo"?
Are you unaware that a female also possesses and can give up anal
virginity?
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Cherry picking (Was: Re: flaunt/flout redux) |
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Steve Hayes wrote:
| Quote: | In SAfE "cherry" is part of the male pudendum.
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Yeah? Which part?
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Cherry picking (Was: Re: flaunt/flout redux) |
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Peter T. Daniels wrote on 08 Nov 2004:
| Quote: | Steve Hayes wrote:
In SAfE "cherry" is part of the male pudendum.
Yeah? Which part?
|
I'd bet that it refers to that cute little bald-headed mouse I used
hear about in dirty junior high school jokes. IOW, the glans penis.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:13 pm
Post subject: Re: flaunt/flout redux |
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howard richler <hrichler@sympatico.ca> wrote:
| Quote: | I googled "flaunt authority" vs "flout authority."
Depressingly, the former is almost as popular as the latter - 19,000 vs
24,000
|
However, you did so without quotation marks, and therefore got many
results where the two words are separated by inches or miles. Putting
the quotation marks in and searching pages in English:
"flout authority" 410
"flaunt authority" 387 Ratio l.0:1
Which, as luck would have it, is quite close to the ratio you found.
24,000:19,000 = 1.2:l
This happens to resemble another Google ratio, "minuscule" /
"miniscule", for which dictionaries have acknowledged the variant
(l.4:l).
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Ross Howard
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Cherry picking (Was: Re: flaunt/flout redux) |
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On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 13:07:15 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrought:
| Quote: | Reinhold (Rey) Aman wrote:
Jacques Guy kirjoitti:
Steve Hayes wrote:
I believe in AmE "cherry" is part of the female pudendum.
It means virginity, that's all.
[...]
And, to be specific, "cherry" refers to a female's vaginal virginity as
well as to a male's anal virginity (in gay lingo).
What makes it "gay lingo"?
Are you unaware that a female also possesses and can give up anal
virginity?
|
I'm sure he's quite aware of it, but as with other points that are
utterly irrelevant, he wisely chose not to bore us with it. Are you
unaware that "her cherry" always refers to a girl's vulval integrity?
"Losing his/her cherry" simply means being penetrated for the first
time, and is understood to refer to the most commonly penetrated
orifice for each sex-er-I-mean-gender.
[1. Hi, Rey, since both vagina and hymen are tradionally involved in
cherry-losing activities.]
--
Ross Howard |
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Cherry picking (Was: Re: flaunt/flout redux) |
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On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 17:43:36 -0800, the renowned Jacques Guy
<jguy@alphalink.com.au> wrote:
| Quote: | Steve Hayes wrote:
I believe in AmE "cherry" is part of the female pudendum.
It means virginity, that's all. In a pinch, you could
imagine that cherry = hymen, but show me a cherry
that looks like a hymen or a hymen that looks like
a cherry. Such parts tend to be named after what
they look like, like, for instance "apricot" (in
French), "peach" in Chinese. French and Japanese,
rather independently I believe, also concur there:
"moule" and "hamaguri" (and Australian English:
"bearded clam").
I should think that, on these bases, "cherry" could
be barely construed as anything but "clitoris".
But clitoris = virginity? It's a wild semantic
jump.
|
Most cherries are red like blood, no?
| Quote: | In SAfE "cherry" is part of the male pudendum.
Which part? Tell us!
|
Life is a bowl of cherries.
http://www.songsforteaching.com/allard/bowlofcherries.htm |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Cherry picking (Was: Re: flaunt/flout redux) |
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Ross Howard wrote:
| Quote: |
On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 13:07:15 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrought:
Reinhold (Rey) Aman wrote:
Jacques Guy kirjoitti:
Steve Hayes wrote:
I believe in AmE "cherry" is part of the female pudendum.
It means virginity, that's all.
[...]
And, to be specific, "cherry" refers to a female's vaginal virginity as
well as to a male's anal virginity (in gay lingo).
What makes it "gay lingo"?
Are you unaware that a female also possesses and can give up anal
virginity?
I'm sure he's quite aware of it, but as with other points that are
utterly irrelevant, he wisely chose not to bore us with it. Are you
unaware that "her cherry" always refers to a girl's vulval integrity?
"Losing his/her cherry" simply means being penetrated for the first
time, and is understood to refer to the most commonly penetrated
orifice for each sex-er-I-mean-gender.
[1. Hi, Rey, since both vagina and hymen are tradionally involved in
cherry-losing activities.]
|
No, since I've seen lots and lots of porn boxes and spam ads urging me
to watch "barely legal" "backdoor virgins" lose their "anal cherry."
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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