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Qp10qp
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:40 pm
Post subject: The lair of the white comma. |
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Whether to use the serial comma or not is, of course, a matter of choice (I
almost always use it), but I had to read the following twice (from Ken
Russell's "Directing Film").
Casting the young Gustav was a bit of a problem, owing to the fact that he had
to ride, swim and play the piano.
Those not familiar with Ken Russell's work might not have had the same problem,
but it's an oeuvre in which it would come as no surprise to find a character
doing those three things to a piano. In "Mahler", I recall Georgia Hale (Alma)
doing a striptease on Mahler's coffin, and in "Lisztomania", Roger Daltrey
(Liszt) committed a number of lurid sexual acts on and around pianos. Russell's
editor might well have inserted a serial comma here, in my opinion (or better
still, urged a redrafting ("ride, play the piano and swim). The trouble is that
editors tend to insist on consistency, regardless of individual cases.
Peasemarch.
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 8:39 pm
Post subject: Re: The lair of the white comma. |
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Qp10qp wrote on 06 Nov 2004:
| Quote: | Whether to use the serial comma or not is, of course, a matter of
choice (I almost always use it), but I had to read the following
twice (from Ken Russell's "Directing Film").
Casting the young Gustav was a bit of a problem, owing to the fact
that he had to ride, swim and play the piano.
|
I find this kind of poorly organized sentence frequently in my medical
texts. The only solution is putting "play the piano" first in the
series, or otherwise rewriting the sentence to avoid this structural
and stylistic error.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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rzed
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 9:23 pm
Post subject: Re: The lair of the white comma. |
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qp10qp@aol.com (Qp10qp) wrote in
news:20041106074022.06621.00000139@mb-m15.aol.com:
| Quote: | Whether to use the serial comma or not is, of course, a matter
of choice (I almost always use it), but I had to read the
following twice (from Ken Russell's "Directing Film").
Casting the young Gustav was a bit of a problem, owing to the
fact that he had to ride, swim and play the piano.
Those not familiar with Ken Russell's work might not have had
the same problem, but it's an oeuvre in which it would come as
no surprise to find a character doing those three things to a
piano. In "Mahler", I recall Georgia Hale (Alma) doing a
striptease on Mahler's coffin, and in "Lisztomania", Roger
Daltrey (Liszt) committed a number of lurid sexual acts on and
around pianos. Russell's editor might well have inserted a
serial comma here, in my opinion (or better still, urged a
redrafting ("ride, play the piano and swim). The trouble is that
editors tend to insist on consistency, regardless of individual
cases.
|
How unclear is it the way it stands? How does one swim a piano?
Either it's very large and water-filled, which seems unlikely, or
it is capable of motion itself, which is at least as unlikely. Oh
sure, you could plunge it into water, but I don't think "swim"
would be the word you'd use to describe the result ("it swam like a
stone"). Granted, another verb in that position ("juggle", say)
might have been a little more jarring, but "swim" does not strike
me as transitive by default.
But I don't see that the presence of another comma would have made
the sentence more clear in any case. Suppose it had been "ride,
paint, and play the piano". Does that form rule out Russell showing
the actor painting the piano as well as riding and playing it?
--
rzed
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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 11:19 pm
Post subject: Re: The lair of the white comma. |
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"rzed" <jello@comics.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9599602BF1E15jreeder@63.223.5.95...
| Quote: | qp10qp@aol.com (Qp10qp) wrote in
news:20041106074022.06621.00000139@mb-m15.aol.com:
Whether to use the serial comma or not is, of course, a matter
of choice (I almost always use it), but I had to read the
following twice (from Ken Russell's "Directing Film").
Casting the young Gustav was a bit of a problem, owing to the
fact that he had to ride, swim and play the piano.
Those not familiar with Ken Russell's work might not have had
the same problem, but it's an oeuvre in which it would come as
no surprise to find a character doing those three things to a
piano. In "Mahler", I recall Georgia Hale (Alma) doing a
striptease on Mahler's coffin, and in "Lisztomania", Roger
Daltrey (Liszt) committed a number of lurid sexual acts on and
around pianos. Russell's editor might well have inserted a
serial comma here, in my opinion (or better still, urged a
redrafting ("ride, play the piano and swim). The trouble is that
editors tend to insist on consistency, regardless of individual
cases.
How unclear is it the way it stands? How does one swim a piano?
Either it's very large and water-filled, which seems unlikely, or
it is capable of motion itself, which is at least as unlikely. Oh
sure, you could plunge it into water, but I don't think "swim"
would be the word you'd use to describe the result ("it swam like a
stone"). Granted, another verb in that position ("juggle", say)
might have been a little more jarring, but "swim" does not strike
me as transitive by default.
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Didn't Holly Hunter swim a piano in The Piano? Sort of, IIRC? |
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rzed
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 11:56 pm
Post subject: Re: The lair of the white comma. |
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"Jess Askin" <nospam@dontbother.net> wrote in
news:cmitke$pv3$1@news.netins.net:
| Quote: |
"rzed" <jello@comics.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9599602BF1E15jreeder@63.223.5.95...
[...]
How unclear is it the way it stands? How does one swim a piano?
Either it's very large and water-filled, which seems unlikely,
or it is capable of motion itself, which is at least as
unlikely. Oh sure, you could plunge it into water, but I don't
think "swim" would be the word you'd use to describe the result
("it swam like a stone"). Granted, another verb in that
position ("juggle", say) might have been a little more jarring,
but "swim" does not strike me as transitive by default.
Didn't Holly Hunter swim a piano in The Piano? Sort of, IIRC?
|
I was thinking of the film when I wrote "it swam like a stone".
See, I don't call that "swimming". The transitive meanings of
"swim" given in my Random House Webster's Unabridged are:
7. to move along in or cross (a body of water) by swimming: to
swim a lake.
8. to perform (a particular stroke) in swimming: to swim a
sidestroke.
9. to cause to swim or float, as on a stream.
10. to furnish with sufficient water to swim or float.
Now, Senses 7 and 8 are right out. Pianos don't move of their own
volition.
I have heard sense 9 used in a context like "they swam the horses
across the river" (which seems to require movement on the part of
the horse), but I've never heard, say, "they swam the log across
the river". I can imagine it could be used that way, to mean that
human swimmers propelled a log across by swimming. However, I don't
think you could do that with a piano, and I think the film
demonstrated why.
That leaves sense 10, which seems to be an odd definition, if taken
at face value. I don't see how it could mean just "to furnish
sufficient: water (or better, liquid). If I have a cork and place
it in a cup of water, it will float, but just furnishing the water
by providing a cup full of it doesn't swim the cork. It has to be
put into the water. If instead of a cork, I placed a pebble in the
cup, would I be "swimming" the pebble? I'd have furnished the
water, but how any sense of "swim" could be applied to a pebble, I
can't begin to imagine. A piano in sufficient water would act
pretty much like the pebble. We say "sink or swim" as though there
were a difference between the two, and I say there is. A piano
sinks; one could sink a piano without trying very hard. Floating it
would be the tough part.
--
rzed |
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Qp10qp
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:44 am
Post subject: Re: The lair of the white comma. |
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| Quote: | Subject: Re: The lair of the white comma.
From: rzed jello@comics.com
If I have a cork and place
it in a cup of water, it will float, but just furnishing the water
by providing a cup full of it doesn't swim the cork. It has to be
put into the water. If instead of a cork, I placed a pebble in the
cup, would I be "swimming" the pebble? I'd have furnished the
water, but how any sense of "swim" could be applied to a pebble, I
can't begin to imagine. A piano in sufficient water would act
pretty much like the pebble. We say "sink or swim" as though there
were a difference between the two, and I say there is. A piano
sinks; one could sink a piano without trying very hard. Floating it
would be the tough part.
--
rzed
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I admire the excruciatingly logical way you have gone about this, though it has
unsettled my sanity slightly, and I apologise for forcing your train of thought
into these gymnastic backwaters of analysis.
I would suggest, however, that language has the capacity to trigger connections
that reason may not:
The frog conducted the rain.
A frying pan thought ecstasy.
Dismembered lettuces chased Charlotte's paternity round three tubes of tomorrow
and collected Spain on the side with subtle cheese scrutiny.
So miscues - like swimming a piano - might momentarily disrupt fluent reading,
regardless of sense.
But you obviously don't know Ken Russell, which is to your advantage. His mises
en scène are so mushroomly Daliesque at times ("Mahler", for example, begins
with Alma emerging from a chrysalis on a beach and includes a dragon-slaying
incident set on a hillside in the Lake District, witnessed by female Nazi
stormtroopers in fishnet tights) that, for example, one could easily imagine
Russell directing a lake full of synchronised swimmers in the shape of a piano,
with poor Gustav doing the breast stroke along the keys.
And if Busby Berkeley never shot a piano-swimming scene of some sort, then I'd
be both surprised and disappointed.
Peasemarch. |
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rzed
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:49 am
Post subject: Re: The lair of the white comma. |
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qp10qp@aol.com (Qp10qp) wrote in
news:20041106124433.11419.00000189@mb-m29.aol.com:
[...]
| Quote: |
But you obviously don't know Ken Russell, which is to your
advantage. His mises en scène are so mushroomly Daliesque at
times ("Mahler", for example, begins with Alma emerging from a
chrysalis on a beach and includes a dragon-slaying incident set
on a hillside in the Lake District, witnessed by female Nazi
stormtroopers in fishnet tights) that, for example, one could
easily imagine Russell directing a lake full of synchronised
swimmers in the shape of a piano, with poor Gustav doing the
breast stroke along the keys.
|
You are too horribly correct; I have not had the fortune to
encounter Ken Russell's work on screen.[1] Based your descriptions
I judge that I should try not to fail to miss any examples that
appear locally.
| Quote: | And if Busby Berkeley never shot a piano-swimming scene of some
sort, then I'd be both surprised and disappointed.
|
Speaking of surrealist filmmakers....
[1] I lie, slightly. I see that he was responsible for a portion of
"Aria", which I did view at some point, though I do not remember
any specifics of it.
--
rzed |
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