| Author |
Message |
Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 9:54 am
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2v4gskF2gi1bvU1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | Jess Askin wrote:
[...]
'It all puts me in mind of the "brass monkey" phenomenon, in which
strenuous efforts are made by the unpoetic to find difficult
explanations for a simple expression.'
-- Mike Lyle, August 27, 2003
Jess, as I've often remarked, you are a man of impeccable literary
taste and acumen.
|
And quick on the DejaGoo....
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John Varela
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 10:33 am
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 15:54:52 UTC, mikeorang.page@ntlworld.com (Mike Page)
wrote:
| Quote: | was taken downstairs after he was wounded and died below decks.
^^^^^^^^^^ |
Oy.
--
John Varela
(Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.)
I apologize for munging the address but the spam was too much. |
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Jitze Couperus
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 17:48:31 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
<mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux wrote:
Mike Page <mikeorang.page@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[...]
The picture can be seen online at
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/picture-of-month/showLarge.asp?venue=
2&id=37
You can find pyramids of cannonballs in all that chaos? Please give
a
hint.
Bottom row, fourth bare chest from the left, bloke reclining beside
gun with his right elbow upwards: look in his oxter.
|
In drawing my attention to that part of the picture, I see that the
owner of the third bare chest from the left is being comforted
by what appears to be a buxom maiden with her own partially-
bared poitrine. Did HM's Navy regulalrly carry wimmen on board?
Or is Ms Hamilton (?) in the picture as a sort of historic license?
Jitze
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J. J. Lodder
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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Jitze Couperus <couperus-eschew-this@znet.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 17:48:31 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Donna Richoux wrote:
Mike Page <mikeorang.page@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[...]
The picture can be seen online at
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/picture-of-month/showLarge.asp?venue=
2&id=37
You can find pyramids of cannonballs in all that chaos? Please give
a
hint.
Bottom row, fourth bare chest from the left, bloke reclining beside
gun with his right elbow upwards: look in his oxter.
In drawing my attention to that part of the picture, I see that the
owner of the third bare chest from the left is being comforted
by what appears to be a buxom maiden with her own partially-
bared poitrine. Did HM's Navy regulalrly carry wimmen on board?
|
Only Horatio Hornblower did, on occasion.
| Quote: | Or is Ms Hamilton (?) in the picture as a sort of historic license?
|
You think the figure behind Nelson,
wearing what appears to be a white cap on her hair
might be intened as Lady Hamilton?
If so, she isn't very comforting,
Jan |
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J. J. Lodder
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> wrote:
| Quote: | Laura F Spira <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
[about]
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/picture-of-month/showLarge.asp?venue=
2&id=37
There are some other odd things: I don't think that the chap peering
down the cannon on the left would be seeing much as there is a bit of
ship in the way, which would also obstruct the view of the chap near him
looking down a telescope.
David Hockney pointed out that such misguided lines-of-sight happened
frequently in paintings that were made from single models assembled into
a group portrait, which was a very common way of painting groups. It was
related to the artists using lenses and mirrors to project the images
and painting from those. They had to do one person, including the angle
of his vision, before they did the next, which might be the intended
recipient. It was very hard to place the subsequent image in just the
right spot.
|
This one clearly isn't in standard perspective:
there is no possible camera position.
As a representation of what a standard panorama camera would see
it isn't too bad.
(apart from that the artist clearly had no idea
of what Victory looked like in reality)
The picture looks more like a representation of the aftermath
a land battle, with some marine detail added for atmosphere,
Jan |
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Mickwick
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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In alt.usage.english, Jitze Couperus wrote:
| Quote: | In drawing my attention to that part of the picture, I see that the
owner of the third bare chest from the left is being comforted
by what appears to be a buxom maiden with her own partially-
bared poitrine. Did HM's Navy regulalrly carry wimmen on board?
|
Shocking, ain't it?
Here's an enlargement of the relevant portion (as they say in the Navy):
http://www.mariner.org/women/goingtosea/heat1.htm
Three of 'em, dammit!
A Jane Townsend, of the Defiance, even received a campaign medal for
Trafalgar. But then the Admiralty saw sense and snatched it back. She
shouldn't have been at the battle, therefore she wasn't at the battle.
There were women aboard French ships at Trafalgar, too. One of them,
Jeanette Colin of the Achille, was fished out of the water stark naked
by the schooner Pickle. Here she is, clothed, being hauled into a
jolly-boat:
http://www.mariner.org/women/goingtosea/heat2.htm
Then there was Daniel Tremendous MacKenzie, so called because he was
born aboard the Tremendous during the Glorious First of June. He was
rated 'Baby' in the ship's muster book and, being of the male sex, his
campaign medal was not snatched back. Hurrah!
And a baby was born during the Battle of the Nile with the aid of a
broadside. From the log of the Edinburgh:
This day the surgeon informed me that a woman on board had been
labouring in childbirth for twelve hours and if I could see my
way to permit the firing of a broadside to leeward, nature would
be assisted by the shock. I complied with the request, and she
was delivered of a fine male child.
| Quote: | Or is Ms Hamilton (?) in the picture as a sort of historic license?
|
*Lady* Hamilton, sir. *Lady*. My ancestor and, in her prime, the fattest
woman in Europe.
(Actually, she isn't my ancestor any more. The relative who made the
claim didn't know about the more colourful aspects of Hamilton's early
life or that her only non-Nelsonian children were bastards. The claim
has now been withdrawn. Which is a pity. I rather liked the idea of
kinship with a woman who danced naked on the tables of the high and
mighty when enormously fat and well into her forties, oblivious of the
creaking of the timbers and the wobbling of the puddings and fancies and
the frowns of the bigwigs because she still thought she was a sylph-like
beauty of unsurpassed poise and grace. What pluck! What innocence!
What-what?)
--
Mickwick |
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Mickwick
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 10:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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In alt.usage.english, Mickwick wrote:
| Quote: | or that her only non-Nelsonian children were bastards.
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As was her Nelsonian child, of course, but that's different.
--
Mickwick |
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Mike Page
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 03:33:46 GMT, "John Varela"
<OLDlamps@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 15:54:52 UTC, mikeorang.page@ntlworld.com (Mike Page)
wrote:
was taken downstairs after he was wounded and died below decks.
^^^^^^^^^^
Oy.
|
If you fish long enough and with the right bait, eventually you
will get a bite.
Mike Page
'The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be
preferred to those who think they've found it.'
(Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment, p195) |
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Murray Arnow
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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|
J. J. Lodder wrote:
| Quote: | Jitze Couperus <couperus-eschew-this@znet.com> wrote:
In drawing my attention to that part of the picture, I see that the
owner of the third bare chest from the left is being comforted
by what appears to be a buxom maiden with her own partially-
bared poitrine. Did HM's Navy regulalrly carry wimmen on board?
Only Horatio Hornblower did, on occasion.
|
Horatio is Twentieth Century and enlightened. However, the question of
whether women were aboard HMS ships is obliquely answered by John Ciardi
who gives this as the origin "of son-of-a-gun."
gun [ME _gunne_, _gonne_. Prob. <Gmnc. _Gunhild_, _Gunhilde_. So ON
Counghildr (_gunnr_ and _hildrboth_ mean "war"), a fond girl's name
for a piece of siege machinery, esp. for a catapult. (So, in WWI,
_Big Bertha_ (which see) for a particularly long-range German
artillery piece.] 1. A firearm or artillery piece. 2. Ext. Any
tubular device for propelling a projectile, _blow gun_. 3. Ext. A
trigger-operated tool. _air gun_, _ray gun_, _caulking gun_. 4. _Ext.
Aviation_. A throttle. _give 'er the gun_, _gun it_.
[...]
_son of a gun_ A variable phrase: 1. Mild exclam. of surprise. 2.
An epithet for a mean, low person. 3. An epithet or form of
greeting for a good old guy. (Always in this sense when used with
"old.") [In the early days of British sea power, women commonly
sailed with men, esp. on long voyages. When, therefore, a birth
occurred aboard ship, the ship's surgeon commonly delivered the
child in a screened-off section of the covered gun deck. The
birth took place "under the gun," and the infant commonly slept
in a small hammock slung from the gun barrel, The log entry "son
of a gun" is on record in cases of unknown paternity. No one has
reported finding "daughter of a gun"-the admiralty had probably
directed that only strong sons be born on British vessels. Senses
2 and 3 are implicit in the origin: for those who thought of
sailors as riffraff, sense 2; for those who thought of them as
fine stout fellows, sense 3.] |
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J. J. Lodder
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:55 am
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
|
|
Murray Arnow <arnow@iname.com> wrote:
| Quote: | J. J. Lodder wrote:
Jitze Couperus <couperus-eschew-this@znet.com> wrote:
In drawing my attention to that part of the picture, I see that the
owner of the third bare chest from the left is being comforted
by what appears to be a buxom maiden with her own partially-
bared poitrine. Did HM's Navy regulalrly carry wimmen on board?
Only Horatio Hornblower did, on occasion.
Horatio is Twentieth Century and enlightened. However, the question of
whether women were aboard HMS ships is obliquely answered by John Ciardi
who gives this as the origin "of son-of-a-gun."
gun [ME _gunne_, _gonne_. Prob. <Gmnc. _Gunhild_, _Gunhilde_. So ON
Counghildr (_gunnr_ and _hildrboth_ mean "war"), a fond girl's name
for a piece of siege machinery, esp. for a catapult. (So, in WWI,
_Big Bertha_ (which see) for a particularly long-range German
artillery piece.] 1. A firearm or artillery piece. 2. Ext. Any
tubular device for propelling a projectile, _blow gun_. 3. Ext. A
trigger-operated tool. _air gun_, _ray gun_, _caulking gun_. 4. _Ext.
Aviation_. A throttle. _give 'er the gun_, _gun it_.
[...]
_son of a gun_ A variable phrase: 1. Mild exclam. of surprise. 2.
An epithet for a mean, low person. 3. An epithet or form of
greeting for a good old guy. (Always in this sense when used with
"old.") [In the early days of British sea power, women commonly
sailed with men, esp. on long voyages. When, therefore, a birth
occurred aboard ship, the ship's surgeon commonly delivered the
child in a screened-off section of the covered gun deck. The
birth took place "under the gun," and the infant commonly slept
in a small hammock slung from the gun barrel, The log entry "son
of a gun" is on record in cases of unknown paternity. No one has
reported finding "daughter of a gun"-the admiralty had probably
directed that only strong sons be born on British vessels. Senses
2 and 3 are implicit in the origin: for those who thought of
sailors as riffraff, sense 2; for those who thought of them as
fine stout fellows, sense 3.]
|
There is no doubt that the gunner's daughter was always aboard,
and ready to be kissed, on all navy ships,
Jan |
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Mike Page
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
|
|
On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 23:18:09 GMT, "Richard Maurer"
<rcpb1_maurer@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Adding a small note: The web page gives the dates as
'The Death of Nelson' 1859-64, by Daniel Maclise (1806-70)
I can see the first mentioned pyramid, but don't see any
garlands. Also, cannot find the second pyramid. Is it near
the barrel or the boy?
|
It's behind the barrel (second cannon from the right). Up close
when viewing the actual painting a rope garland is clearly
visible on the left hand pyramid.
Mike Page
'The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be
preferred to those who think they've found it.'
(Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment, p195) |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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|
J. J. Lodder wrote:
| Quote: | Jitze Couperus <couperus-eschew-this@znet.com> wrote:
On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 17:48:31 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Donna Richoux wrote:
Mike Page <mikeorang.page@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[...]
The picture can be seen online at
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/picture-of-month/showLarge.asp?venue=
2&id=37
You can find pyramids of cannonballs in all that chaos? Please
give a hint.
Bottom row, fourth bare chest from the left, bloke reclining beside
gun with his right elbow upwards: look in his oxter.
In drawing my attention to that part of the picture, I see that the
owner of the third bare chest from the left is being comforted
by what appears to be a buxom maiden with her own partially-
bared poitrine. Did HM's Navy regulalrly carry wimmen on board?
Only Horatio Hornblower did, on occasion.
|
RN ships of the Napoleonic period regularly carried women. Sometimes
unknowingly as in the case of those women who masqueraded as men, more
often knowingly in the form of the more traditional camp follower or,
occasionally, bona fide wife.
Hornblower's portage of Lady Barbara reflected, unsurprisingly, Nelson's
portage of Lady Hamilton (though Sir William was on board too).
A child was born on HMS Tremendous during the battle of the Glorious
First of June and was named Daniel Tremendous McKenzie. He was rated
'baby' on the ship's books and awarded the Naval General Service medal
for his part in the action.
There's also an account that a baby was born on HMS Edinburgh during the
battle of the Nile.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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J. J. Lodder
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:17 am
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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John Dean <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
| Quote: | J. J. Lodder wrote:
Jitze Couperus <couperus-eschew-this@znet.com> wrote:
On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 17:48:31 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Donna Richoux wrote:
Mike Page <mikeorang.page@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[...]
The picture can be seen online at
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/picture-of-month/showLarge.asp?venue=
2&id=37
You can find pyramids of cannonballs in all that chaos? Please
give a hint.
Bottom row, fourth bare chest from the left, bloke reclining beside
gun with his right elbow upwards: look in his oxter.
In drawing my attention to that part of the picture, I see that the
owner of the third bare chest from the left is being comforted
by what appears to be a buxom maiden with her own partially-
bared poitrine. Did HM's Navy regulalrly carry wimmen on board?
Only Horatio Hornblower did, on occasion.
RN ships of the Napoleonic period regularly carried women. Sometimes
unknowingly as in the case of those women who masqueraded as men, more
often knowingly in the form of the more traditional camp follower or,
occasionally, bona fide wife.
Hornblower's portage of Lady Barbara reflected, unsurprisingly, Nelson's
portage of Lady Hamilton (though Sir William was on board too).
|
Not too surprisingly: Lord Hamilton was British ambassador in Italy,
and a warship was the only reliable way of getting there and back
during the wars.
Lady Barbara was something else: she was on her own,
without any official function.
The right of a member of the aristocracy to request passage
on any king's ship that happened to be passing by
seems to have been fictional.
Best,
Jan |
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John Dean
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:22 am
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
|
|
J. J. Lodder wrote:
| Quote: | John Dean <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
J. J. Lodder wrote:
Jitze Couperus <couperus-eschew-this@znet.com> wrote:
On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 17:48:31 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Donna Richoux wrote:
Mike Page <mikeorang.page@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[...]
The picture can be seen online at
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/picture-of-month/showLarge.asp?venue=
2&id=37
You can find pyramids of cannonballs in all that chaos? Please
give a hint.
Bottom row, fourth bare chest from the left, bloke reclining
beside gun with his right elbow upwards: look in his oxter.
In drawing my attention to that part of the picture, I see that the
owner of the third bare chest from the left is being comforted
by what appears to be a buxom maiden with her own partially-
bared poitrine. Did HM's Navy regulalrly carry wimmen on board?
Only Horatio Hornblower did, on occasion.
RN ships of the Napoleonic period regularly carried women. Sometimes
unknowingly as in the case of those women who masqueraded as men,
more often knowingly in the form of the more traditional camp
follower or, occasionally, bona fide wife.
Hornblower's portage of Lady Barbara reflected, unsurprisingly,
Nelson's portage of Lady Hamilton (though Sir William was on board
too).
Not too surprisingly: Lord Hamilton was British ambassador in Italy,
and a warship was the only reliable way of getting there and back
during the wars.
Lady Barbara was something else: she was on her own,
without any official function.
The right of a member of the aristocracy to request passage
on any king's ship that happened to be passing by
seems to have been fictional.
|
Actually, the Hamiltons were already installed in the Ambassador's
residence in Naples when Nelson first met them. The shipboard episode
was a cruise to Malta in 1800. The Hamiltons returned to England
overland on Sir William's recall, Nelson joining them. Though they did
take a packet boat for the last stage from Germany to Yarmouth.
And Sir William wasn't Ambassador to Italy, he was Ambassador to Naples.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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J. J. Lodder
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
|
|
John Dean <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
| Quote: | J. J. Lodder wrote:
John Dean <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
J. J. Lodder wrote:
Jitze Couperus <couperus-eschew-this@znet.com> wrote:
On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 17:48:31 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Donna Richoux wrote:
Mike Page <mikeorang.page@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[...]
The picture can be seen online at
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/picture-of-month/showLarge.asp?venue=
2&id=37
You can find pyramids of cannonballs in all that chaos? Please
give a hint.
Bottom row, fourth bare chest from the left, bloke reclining
beside gun with his right elbow upwards: look in his oxter.
In drawing my attention to that part of the picture, I see that the
owner of the third bare chest from the left is being comforted
by what appears to be a buxom maiden with her own partially-
bared poitrine. Did HM's Navy regulalrly carry wimmen on board?
Only Horatio Hornblower did, on occasion.
RN ships of the Napoleonic period regularly carried women. Sometimes
unknowingly as in the case of those women who masqueraded as men,
more often knowingly in the form of the more traditional camp
follower or, occasionally, bona fide wife.
Hornblower's portage of Lady Barbara reflected, unsurprisingly,
Nelson's portage of Lady Hamilton (though Sir William was on board
too).
Not too surprisingly: Lord Hamilton was British ambassador in Italy,
and a warship was the only reliable way of getting there and back
during the wars.
Lady Barbara was something else: she was on her own,
without any official function.
The right of a member of the aristocracy to request passage
on any king's ship that happened to be passing by
seems to have been fictional.
Actually, the Hamiltons were already installed in the Ambassador's
residence in Naples when Nelson first met them. The shipboard episode
was a cruise to Malta in 1800.
|
I know. And I didn't know about the shipboard episode at all.
What happened: did Hamilton require passage,
or did Nelson invite them as his guests?
| Quote: | The Hamiltons returned to England
overland on Sir William's recall, Nelson joining them. Though they did
take a packet boat for the last stage from Germany to Yarmouth.
And Sir William wasn't Ambassador to Italy, he was Ambassador to Naples.
|
That's why I wrote 'in Italy'.
Jan |
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