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Message |
Mike Page
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:59 pm
Post subject: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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I like to record any evidence that might add to the body of human
knowledge relating to the origin of the phrase 'cold enough to
freeze the balls off a brass monkey'. As the faq records, the
explanation that the phrase relates to collapse of pyramids of
cannon balls, due to the contraction of a brass shot garland on
board naval ships in cold weather, does not work for a number of
reasons, although, I contend, the physics is reasonable. One of
the objections is that there is no evidence that pyramids of
cannon balls were ever used on ship board. However, some more
evidence about this has emerged.
A doughty professor and I were enjoying the pictures in the
Walker Gallery in Liverpool recently. We encountered 'The Death
of Nelson' by David Maclise, RA. The picture was acquired by the
gallery in 1929 from the Liverpool Naval Exhibition (whatever
that was).
The picture shows two pyramids of cannon balls serving the guns.
Admittedly they are restrained by garlands of rope, but
nevertheless this seems to be worth recording for posterity.
The picture can be seen online at
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/picture-of-month/showLarge.asp?venue=2&id=37
Mike Page
'The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be
preferred to those who think they've found it.'
(Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment, p195)
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 8:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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Mike Page wrote:
| Quote: | I like to record any evidence that might add to the body of human
knowledge relating to the origin of the phrase 'cold enough to
freeze the balls off a brass monkey'. As the faq records, the
explanation that the phrase relates to collapse of pyramids of
cannon balls, due to the contraction of a brass shot garland on
board naval ships in cold weather, does not work for a number of
reasons, although, I contend, the physics is reasonable. One of
the objections is that there is no evidence that pyramids of
cannon balls were ever used on ship board. However, some more
evidence about this has emerged.
A doughty professor and I were enjoying the pictures in the
Walker Gallery in Liverpool recently. We encountered 'The Death
of Nelson' by David Maclise, RA. The picture was acquired by the
gallery in 1929 from the Liverpool Naval Exhibition (whatever
that was).
The picture shows two pyramids of cannon balls serving the guns.
Admittedly they are restrained by garlands of rope, but
nevertheless this seems to be worth recording for posterity.
|
I can't actually spot them. But I note the picture was painted at the
time the RN was converting to steam so I don't know how reliable this
artist chappie might be. After all, some artists painted Nelson with an
eye patch and others showed the wrong arm missing.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Mike Page
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 14:41:13 +0100, "John Dean"
<john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Mike Page wrote:
I like to record any evidence that might add to the body of human
knowledge relating to the origin of the phrase 'cold enough to
freeze the balls off a brass monkey'. As the faq records, the
explanation that the phrase relates to collapse of pyramids of
cannon balls, due to the contraction of a brass shot garland on
board naval ships in cold weather, does not work for a number of
reasons, although, I contend, the physics is reasonable. One of
the objections is that there is no evidence that pyramids of
cannon balls were ever used on ship board. However, some more
evidence about this has emerged.
A doughty professor and I were enjoying the pictures in the
Walker Gallery in Liverpool recently. We encountered 'The Death
of Nelson' by David Maclise, RA. The picture was acquired by the
gallery in 1929 from the Liverpool Naval Exhibition (whatever
that was).
The picture shows two pyramids of cannon balls serving the guns.
Admittedly they are restrained by garlands of rope, but
nevertheless this seems to be worth recording for posterity.
I can't actually spot them. But I note the picture was painted at the
time the RN was converting to steam so I don't know how reliable this
artist chappie might be. After all, some artists painted Nelson with an
eye patch and others showed the wrong arm missing.
|
I think it's likely to be reasonably authentic. In the flesh one
can see that the garlands are of rope, and, if you weren't expert
in what you were painting, you probably wouldn't know that.
(I've mentioned before a couple of sightings of rope garlands.)
That said there are a couple things wrong with the painting - for
one thing Nelson is shown popping his clogs on deck, whereas he
was taken downstairs after he was wounded and died below decks.
The changeover from sail to steam is probably less important than
the change from muzzle-loaded roundshot to breech loaded shells.
Mike Page
'The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be
preferred to those who think they've found it.'
(Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment, p195)
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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 11:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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"Mike Page" <mikeorang.page@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:418dab58.501353928@news.individual.de...
| Quote: | I like to record any evidence that might add to the body of human
knowledge relating to the origin of the phrase 'cold enough to
freeze the balls off a brass monkey'. As the faq records, the
explanation that the phrase relates to collapse of pyramids of
cannon balls, due to the contraction of a brass shot garland on
board naval ships in cold weather, does not work for a number of
reasons, although, I contend, the physics is reasonable. One of
the objections is that there is no evidence that pyramids of
cannon balls were ever used on ship board. However, some more
evidence about this has emerged.
A doughty professor and I were enjoying the pictures in the
Walker Gallery in Liverpool recently. We encountered 'The Death
of Nelson' by David Maclise, RA. The picture was acquired by the
gallery in 1929 from the Liverpool Naval Exhibition (whatever
that was).
The picture shows two pyramids of cannon balls serving the guns.
Admittedly they are restrained by garlands of rope, but
nevertheless this seems to be worth recording for posterity.
|
'It all puts me in mind of the "brass monkey" phenomenon, in which
strenuous efforts are made by the unpoetic to find difficult
explanations for a simple expression.'
-- Mike Lyle, August 27, 2003 |
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Jim Ward
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 11:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 15:54:52 GMT, mikeorang.page@ntlworld.com (Mike
Page) wrote:
| Quote: | The changeover from sail to steam is probably less important than
the change from muzzle-loaded roundshot to breech loaded shells.
|
One consequence of the changeover from sail to steam is that you have
to grab some Pacific islands for your coaling stations. Germany lost
all their islands after WWI and they've never quite gotten over it.
Instead of having their own fun-in-the-sun land, German tourists now
restlessly roam the world's beaches. |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:02 am
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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Mike Page <mikeorang.page@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I like to record any evidence that might add to the body of human
knowledge relating to the origin of the phrase 'cold enough to
freeze the balls off a brass monkey'. As the faq records, the
explanation that the phrase relates to collapse of pyramids of
cannon balls, due to the contraction of a brass shot garland on
board naval ships in cold weather, does not work for a number of
reasons, although, I contend, the physics is reasonable. One of
the objections is that there is no evidence that pyramids of
cannon balls were ever used on ship board. However, some more
evidence about this has emerged.
A doughty professor and I were enjoying the pictures in the
Walker Gallery in Liverpool recently. We encountered 'The Death
of Nelson' by David Maclise, RA. The picture was acquired by the
gallery in 1929 from the Liverpool Naval Exhibition (whatever
that was).
The picture shows two pyramids of cannon balls serving the guns.
Admittedly they are restrained by garlands of rope, but
nevertheless this seems to be worth recording for posterity.
The picture can be seen online at
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/picture-of-month/showLarge.asp?venue= |
2&id=37
You can find pyramids of cannonballs in all that chaos? Please give a
hint.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:44 am
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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Jess Askin wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | 'It all puts me in mind of the "brass monkey" phenomenon, in which
strenuous efforts are made by the unpoetic to find difficult
explanations for a simple expression.'
-- Mike Lyle, August 27, 2003
|
Jess, as I've often remarked, you are a man of impeccable literary
taste and acumen.
Mike. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:48 am
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
Bottom row, fourth bare chest from the left, bloke reclining beside
gun with his right elbow upwards: look in his oxter.
Mike. |
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raymond o'hara
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 2:27 am
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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"Mike Page" <mikeorang.page@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:418dab58.501353928@news.individual.de...
| Quote: | I like to record any evidence that might add to the body of human
knowledge relating to the origin of the phrase 'cold enough to
freeze the balls off a brass monkey'. As the faq records, the
explanation that the phrase relates to collapse of pyramids of
cannon balls, due to the contraction of a brass shot garland on
board naval ships in cold weather, does not work for a number of
reasons, although, I contend, the physics is reasonable. One of
the objections is that there is no evidence that pyramids of
cannon balls were ever used on ship board. However, some more
evidence about this has emerged.
|
Painting are rarely if ever accurate. Ready cannonballs were kept in a type
of trough that had a bar over it to keep the balls from rolling free . No
one would stack them in a pyramid on a rolling ship as they would be forever
chasing them around the deck. |
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Laura F Spira
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 2:58 am
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux wrote:
Mike Page <mikeorang.page@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[...]
The picture can be seen online at
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/picture-of-month/showLarge.asp?venue=
2&id=37
You can find pyramids of cannonballs in all that chaos? Please give
a
hint.
Bottom row, fourth bare chest from the left, bloke reclining beside
gun with his right elbow upwards: look in his oxter.
And there's another little stack just behind the second cannon from the |
right.
There are some other odd things: I don't think that the chap peering
down the cannon on the left would be seeing much as there is a bit of
ship in the way, which would also obstruct the view of the chap near him
looking down a telescope. It's an impressive work though (and the joy on
my companion's face when he spotted the cannon balls was something to
behold...)
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email) |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:17 am
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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Laura F Spira <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
[about]
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/picture-of-month/showLarge.asp?venue=
2&id=37
| Quote: | There are some other odd things: I don't think that the chap peering
down the cannon on the left would be seeing much as there is a bit of
ship in the way, which would also obstruct the view of the chap near him
looking down a telescope.
|
David Hockney pointed out that such misguided lines-of-sight happened
frequently in paintings that were made from single models assembled into
a group portrait, which was a very common way of painting groups. It was
related to the artists using lenses and mirrors to project the images
and painting from those. They had to do one person, including the angle
of his vision, before they did the next, which might be the intended
recipient. It was very hard to place the subsequent image in just the
right spot.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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J. J. Lodder
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:31 am
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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raymond o'hara <reoh@comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "Mike Page" <mikeorang.page@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:418dab58.501353928@news.individual.de...
I like to record any evidence that might add to the body of human
knowledge relating to the origin of the phrase 'cold enough to
freeze the balls off a brass monkey'. As the faq records, the
explanation that the phrase relates to collapse of pyramids of
cannon balls, due to the contraction of a brass shot garland on
board naval ships in cold weather, does not work for a number of
reasons, although, I contend, the physics is reasonable. One of
the objections is that there is no evidence that pyramids of
cannon balls were ever used on ship board. However, some more
evidence about this has emerged.
Painting are rarely if ever accurate. Ready cannonballs were kept in a type
of trough that had a bar over it to keep the balls from rolling free . No
one would stack them in a pyramid on a rolling ship as they would be forever
chasing them around the deck.
|
And worse than that.
A cannonball rolling down the slope when sailing half wind
would pick up enough speed to smash a sailor's foot or ankle.
Jan |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:36 am
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux wrote:
Mike Page <mikeorang.page@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[...]
The picture can be seen online at
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/picture-of-month/showLarge.asp?venue=
2&id=37
You can find pyramids of cannonballs in all that chaos? Please give a
hint.
Bottom row, fourth bare chest from the left, bloke reclining beside
gun with his right elbow upwards: look in his oxter.
Mike.
|
Ah. Mind you, those look to be positioned in exactly the right spot to
be scattered to buggery by the cannon's recoil. And mind you (2) I don't
think the 'brass monkey' doubters (among whom I number myself) made
much demur about roundshot being stacked pyramidically, just that it
wasn't stacked on anything made of brass or called a monkey.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Laura F Spira
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:16 am
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Laura F Spira <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
[about]
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/picture-of-month/showLarge.asp?venue=
2&id=37
There are some other odd things: I don't think that the chap peering
down the cannon on the left would be seeing much as there is a bit of
ship in the way, which would also obstruct the view of the chap near him
looking down a telescope.
David Hockney pointed out that such misguided lines-of-sight happened
frequently in paintings that were made from single models assembled into
a group portrait, which was a very common way of painting groups. It was
related to the artists using lenses and mirrors to project the images
and painting from those. They had to do one person, including the angle
of his vision, before they did the next, which might be the intended
recipient. It was very hard to place the subsequent image in just the
right spot.
|
Yes, I read that, too. And it reminds me of my admiration for actors who
appear in films that include computer generated "actors" which are
edited in later.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email) |
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Richard Maurer
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:18 am
Post subject: Re: Brass monkey (ctd) |
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Mike Page wrote:
I like to record any evidence that might add to the body of human
knowledge relating to the origin of the phrase 'cold enough to
freeze the balls off a brass monkey'. As the faq records, the
explanation that the phrase relates to collapse of pyramids of
cannon balls, due to the contraction of a brass shot garland on
board naval ships in cold weather, does not work for a number of
reasons, although, I contend, the physics is reasonable. One of
the objections is that there is no evidence that pyramids of
cannon balls were ever used on ship board. However, some more
evidence about this has emerged.
A doughty professor and I were enjoying the pictures in the
Walker Gallery in Liverpool recently. We encountered 'The Death
of Nelson' by David Maclise, RA. The picture was acquired by the
gallery in 1929 from the Liverpool Naval Exhibition (whatever
that was).
The picture shows two pyramids of cannon balls serving the guns.
Admittedly they are restrained by garlands of rope, but
nevertheless this seems to be worth recording for posterity.
The picture can be seen online at
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/picture-of-month/
showLarge.asp?venue=2&id=37
Adding a small note: The web page gives the dates as
'The Death of Nelson' 1859-64, by Daniel Maclise (1806-70)
I can see the first mentioned pyramid, but don't see any
garlands. Also, cannot find the second pyramid. Is it near
the barrel or the boy?
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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