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Theodore de Bere
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:13 pm
Post subject: Election-time riddle |
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Who was the first president of the United States of America
who was not born in that country?
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Election-time riddle |
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Theodore de Bere typed thus:
| Quote: | Who was the first president of the United States of America
who was not born in that country?
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George Washington? He was born in a British colony.
--
David
=====
replace the first component of address
with the definite article. |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Election-time riddle |
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Don Aitken wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:13:37 GMT, Theodore de Bere
teddebere@earthlink.net> wrote:
Who was the first president of the United States of America
who was not born in that country?
Ambiguous. It depends on whether "country" means "geographical area"
or "political unit". In the former sense, they were all "native-born",
because the Constitution so requires.
|
The Constitution requires the Pres to be a "natural born citizen" (not
"native born") and that does not require birth within the geographical
area of the USA. John McCain was an eligible candidate though born in
Panama. So was Barry Goldwater though Arizona wasn't a state when he was
born there.
The founding fathers, however, cut themselves some slack by including a
constitutional provision that you could be top banana if you were a
citizen of the USA, irrespective of birth-place or circumstances, at the
time of adoption of the constitution. So John Paul Jones could have been
president if he hadn't gone off to fight for the Russians.
As has been pointed out, George Washington was the first Pres not born
un the USA. Van Buren was the first Pres not born as a British subject
(if you accept the validity of the Declaration of Independence -
otherwise John Tyler)
--
John Dean
Oxford
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Don Aitken
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Election-time riddle |
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On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:13:37 GMT, Theodore de Bere
<teddebere@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Who was the first president of the United States of America
who was not born in that country?
|
Ambiguous. It depends on whether "country" means "geographical area"
or "political unit". In the former sense, they were all "native-born",
because the Constitution so requires. In the latter, those from
Washington to Jackson, plus W.H. Harrison, were not born "in the
country" because they were born before the Declaration of
Independence.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". |
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Frances Kemmish
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Election-time riddle |
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Don Aitken wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:13:37 GMT, Theodore de Bere
teddebere@earthlink.net> wrote:
Who was the first president of the United States of America
who was not born in that country?
Ambiguous. It depends on whether "country" means "geographical area"
or "political unit". In the former sense, they were all "native-born",
because the Constitution so requires. In the latter, those from
Washington to Jackson, plus W.H. Harrison, were not born "in the
country" because they were born before the Declaration of
Independence.
|
Here is the text of the relelvant paragraph in the constitution:
"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United
States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be
eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be
eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty
five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States."
The requirement for the President to be "native born" didn't apply to
the people who wrote the provision.
Fran |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Election-time riddle |
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Frances Kemmish <fkemmish@optonline.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Don Aitken wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:13:37 GMT, Theodore de Bere
teddebere@earthlink.net> wrote:
Who was the first president of the United States of America
who was not born in that country?
Ambiguous. It depends on whether "country" means "geographical area"
or "political unit". In the former sense, they were all "native-born",
because the Constitution so requires. In the latter, those from
Washington to Jackson, plus W.H. Harrison, were not born "in the
country" because they were born before the Declaration of
Independence.
Here is the text of the relelvant paragraph in the constitution:
"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United
States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be
eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be
eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty
five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States."
|
Which leaves open the case of someone born in a territory which later
became a US state. That apparently has only been an issue once:
candidate Barry Goldwater was born in Arizona Territory.
I'd forgotten that bit about "fourteen years a resident."
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Frances Kemmish
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Election-time riddle |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Frances Kemmish <fkemmish@optonline.net> wrote:
Don Aitken wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:13:37 GMT, Theodore de Bere
teddebere@earthlink.net> wrote:
Who was the first president of the United States of America
who was not born in that country?
Ambiguous. It depends on whether "country" means "geographical area"
or "political unit". In the former sense, they were all "native-born",
because the Constitution so requires. In the latter, those from
Washington to Jackson, plus W.H. Harrison, were not born "in the
country" because they were born before the Declaration of
Independence.
Here is the text of the relelvant paragraph in the constitution:
"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United
States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be
eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be
eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty
five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States."
Which leaves open the case of someone born in a territory which later
became a US state. That apparently has only been an issue once:
candidate Barry Goldwater was born in Arizona Territory.
I'd forgotten that bit about "fourteen years a resident."
|
I was trying to think of someone who might have run for President in
those early years, who was not born in what is now the USA. The only one
I could think of was Alexander Hamilton, who was born in the West
Indies. No doubt there were others.
Fran |
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Philip Eden
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Election-time riddle |
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"John Dean" <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote in message
news:cmfso2$ghh$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
| Quote: | Don Aitken wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:13:37 GMT, Theodore de Bere
teddebere@earthlink.net> wrote:
Who was the first president of the United States of America
who was not born in that country?
Ambiguous. It depends on whether "country" means "geographical area"
or "political unit". In the former sense, they were all "native-born",
because the Constitution so requires.
The Constitution requires the Pres to be a "natural born citizen" (not
"native born") and that does not require birth within the geographical
area of the USA. John McCain was an eligible candidate though born in
Panama. So was Barry Goldwater though Arizona wasn't a state when he was
born there.
The founding fathers, however, cut themselves some slack by including a
constitutional provision that you could be top banana if you were a
citizen of the USA, irrespective of birth-place or circumstances, at the
time of adoption of the constitution. So John Paul Jones could have been
president if he hadn't gone off to fight for the Russians.
As has been pointed out, George Washington was the first Pres not born
un the USA. Van Buren was the first Pres not born as a British subject
(if you accept the validity of the Declaration of Independence -
otherwise John Tyler)
--
John Dean
Oxford
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Philip Eden
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Election-time riddle |
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"Frances Kemmish" wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:13:37 GMT, Theodore de Bere wrote:
Who was the first president of the United States of America
who was not born in that country?
Here is the text of the relelvant paragraph in the constitution:
"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United
States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be
eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible
to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five
years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States."
So if you were born by Caesarian section ... |
Philip Eden |
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Philip Eden
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Election-time riddle |
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"Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote:
Sorry for the un-added-to post.
pe |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Election-time riddle |
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"John Dean" <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> writes:
| Quote: | Don Aitken wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:13:37 GMT, Theodore de Bere
teddebere@earthlink.net> wrote:
Who was the first president of the United States of America
who was not born in that country?
As has been pointed out, George Washington was the first Pres not born
un the USA.
|
If you don't count Samuel Huntington, John Hansen, Elias Boudinot,
Thomas Mifflin, Richard Henry Lee, Nathan Gorman, Arthur St. Clair,
and Cyrus Griffin. With the exception of Huntington, all were
"president of the United States of America in Congress assembled".
Huntington was president of congress when the Articles of
Confederation were ratified.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The reason that we don't have
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |"bear-proof" garbage cans in the
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |park is that there is a significant
|overlap in intelligence between the
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |smartest bears and the dumbest
(650)857-7572 |humans.
| Yosemite Park Ranger
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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John Seeliger
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Election-time riddle |
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"Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
news:1xf8l344.fsf@hpl.hp.com...
| Quote: | "John Dean" <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> writes:
Don Aitken wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:13:37 GMT, Theodore de Bere
teddebere@earthlink.net> wrote:
Who was the first president of the United States of America
who was not born in that country?
As has been pointed out, George Washington was the first Pres not born
un the USA.
If you don't count Samuel Huntington, John Hansen, Elias Boudinot,
Thomas Mifflin, Richard Henry Lee, Nathan Gorman, Arthur St. Clair,
and Cyrus Griffin. With the exception of Huntington, all were
"president of the United States of America in Congress assembled".
Huntington was president of congress when the Articles of
Confederation were ratified.
|
Then why isn't his picture on the dollar bill? |
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Mark Browne
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 12:11 am
Post subject: Re: Election-time riddle |
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On Fri, 5 Nov 2004, in alt.usage.english, Philip Eden
<philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom@?.?.invalid> writes
| Quote: |
"Frances Kemmish" wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:13:37 GMT, Theodore de Bere wrote:
Who was the first president of the United States of America
who was not born in that country?
Here is the text of the relelvant paragraph in the constitution:
"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United
States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be
eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible
to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five
years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States."
So if you were born by Caesarian section ...
|
I wondered about that. The first sentence could be reinterpreted to
mean no artificial birth, but otherwise you're OK if you are currently a
citizen.
--
Mark Browne
If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the
"From" address will be rejected |
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don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 2:51 am
Post subject: Re: Election-time riddle |
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In article <cmfso2$ghh$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, John Dean at john-
dean@frag.lineone.net poured forth...
| Quote: | Don Aitken wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:13:37 GMT, Theodore de Bere
teddebere@earthlink.net> wrote:
Who was the first president of the United States of America
who was not born in that country?
Ambiguous. It depends on whether "country" means "geographical area"
or "political unit". In the former sense, they were all "native-born",
because the Constitution so requires.
The Constitution requires the Pres to be a "natural born citizen" (not
"native born")
|
So anyone born by caesarean section is not eligible then.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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Carmen L. Abruzzi
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:05 am
Post subject: Re: Election-time riddle |
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Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
| Quote: | "John Dean" <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> writes:
Don Aitken wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:13:37 GMT, Theodore de Bere
teddebere@earthlink.net> wrote:
Who was the first president of the United States of America
who was not born in that country?
As has been pointed out, George Washington was the first Pres not born
un the USA.
If you don't count Samuel Huntington, John Hansen, Elias Boudinot,
Thomas Mifflin, Richard Henry Lee, Nathan Gorman, Arthur St. Clair,
and Cyrus Griffin. With the exception of Huntington, all were
"president of the United States of America in Congress assembled".
Huntington was president of congress when the Articles of
Confederation were ratified.
Looks like Arthur St. Clair is the answer, if you apply |
"USA" retroactively. |
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