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Rocky3
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Informations about William Blake? |
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Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:01:26 +0100, einde. ocallaghan ha scritto:
| Quote: | "Do not hear it" (netgative imperative) - in earlier times the auxiliary
"do" wasn't always used. This usage is more common in poetry and is
still occasionally used even in modern poetry.
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Perfect! Thank you very much!! Now I think I can understand the whole
passage.
Rocky3
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Rocky3
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Informations about William Blake? |
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Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:21:53 -0000, Mike Stevens ha scritto:
| Quote: | Unlikely, I think. The line is "Hear it not, Heaven, thy ministers have
done it !", which, to my mind clearly says that it is Heaven's ministers
Blake is talking about here.
The context is surely a play about the Wars of
the Roses.
In which plenty of Bishops lead armies.
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Thank you for all your informations, this interpretation is perfectly
consistent.
Rocky3 |
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Robin Bignall
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Informations about William Blake? |
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:43:31 GMT, Rocky3 <prova@prova.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:13:52 -0000, Mike Stevens ha scritto:
I'm far from being an expert on Blake (and rather distrust anyone who claims
to be - Blake deliberately writes for much of the time in coded
references. many of them obscure).
Ok. Yes, infact our teacher had explained us that Blake mainly uses symbols
and obscure corrispondances.
But one thing about him is clear: he was very anti-clerical.
I think I didn't know it. This is a possible interpretation.
So I take the
last line of this piece to say that organised religion must take a share of
the blame for the evils he describes.
In fact he says: "Heaven, your Ministers have done it". Right! But I can't
understand the first words of the same line: "Hear it not, Heaven". What is
their meaning? In particular, I can't understand what he means with "hear
it not"... Could you explain me?
Thank you anyway for your support  .
Einde has translated that to "Do not hear it". I'd go further, and |
interpret it as "Do not listen, God (Heaven). Your Ministers (of the
church) support and encourage (the evils of) war just as much as kings
and nobles do".
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Hertfordshire
England
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einde. ocallaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Informations about William Blake? |
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Robin Bignall wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:43:31 GMT, Rocky3 <prova@prova.com> wrote:
Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:13:52 -0000, Mike Stevens ha scritto:
I'm far from being an expert on Blake (and rather distrust anyone who claims
to be - Blake deliberately writes for much of the time in coded
references. many of them obscure).
Ok. Yes, infact our teacher had explained us that Blake mainly uses symbols
and obscure corrispondances.
But one thing about him is clear: he was very anti-clerical.
I think I didn't know it. This is a possible interpretation.
So I take the
last line of this piece to say that organised religion must take a share of
the blame for the evils he describes.
In fact he says: "Heaven, your Ministers have done it". Right! But I can't
understand the first words of the same line: "Hear it not, Heaven". What is
their meaning? In particular, I can't understand what he means with "hear
it not"... Could you explain me?
Thank you anyway for your support .
Einde has translated that to "Do not hear it". I'd go further, and
interpret it as "Do not listen, God (Heaven). Your Ministers (of the
church) support and encourage (the evils of) war just as much as kings
and nobles do".
I would agree with your interpretation. |
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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John Briggs
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Informations about William Blake? |
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Robin Bignall wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:43:31 GMT, Rocky3 <prova@prova.com> wrote:
Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:13:52 -0000, Mike Stevens ha scritto:
I'm far from being an expert on Blake (and rather distrust anyone
who claims to be - Blake deliberately writes for much of the time
in coded references. many of them obscure).
Ok. Yes, infact our teacher had explained us that Blake mainly uses
symbols and obscure corrispondances.
But one thing about him is clear: he was very anti-clerical.
I think I didn't know it. This is a possible interpretation.
So I take the
last line of this piece to say that organised religion must take a
share of the blame for the evils he describes.
In fact he says: "Heaven, your Ministers have done it". Right! But I
can't understand the first words of the same line: "Hear it not,
Heaven". What is their meaning? In particular, I can't understand
what he means with "hear it not"... Could you explain me?
Thank you anyway for your support .
Einde has translated that to "Do not hear it". I'd go further, and
interpret it as "Do not listen, God (Heaven). Your Ministers (of the
church) support and encourage (the evils of) war just as much as kings
and nobles do".
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Except that "thy Ministers" could also mean "your angels". Don't forget
"When the whirlwind of fury comes from the / Throne of God, when the frowns
of his countenance / Drive the nations together, who can stand ?"
--
John Briggs |
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Rocky3
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:15 am
Post subject: Re: Informations about William Blake? |
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| Quote: | I would agree with your interpretation.
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Me too!
Rocky3 |
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Rocky3
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:16 am
Post subject: Re: Informations about William Blake? |
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Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:21:08 GMT, John Briggs ha scritto:
| Quote: | Except that "thy Ministers" could also mean "your angels". Don't forget
"When the whirlwind of fury comes from the / Throne of God, when the frowns
of his countenance / Drive the nations together, who can stand ?"
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Yes, but I think it could be a too much forced interpretation. How can the
angels cause violence and wars?
I prefer the Robin Bignall interpretation, in my opinion.
Rocky3 |
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Robin Bignall
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:44 am
Post subject: Re: Informations about William Blake? |
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:16:40 GMT, Rocky3 <prova@prova.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:21:08 GMT, John Briggs ha scritto:
Except that "thy Ministers" could also mean "your angels". Don't forget
"When the whirlwind of fury comes from the / Throne of God, when the frowns
of his countenance / Drive the nations together, who can stand ?"
Yes, but I think it could be a too much forced interpretation. How can the
angels cause violence and wars?
I prefer the Robin Bignall interpretation, in my opinion.
Not so fast, Rocky. John has a very good point. Not all angels are |
good. Isn't Satan a fallen angel, the leader of the other fallen
angels? I am not a believer, so my knowledge of such matters ends
there.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Hertfordshire
England |
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einde. ocallaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:16 am
Post subject: Re: Informations about William Blake? |
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Robin Bignall wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:16:40 GMT, Rocky3 <prova@prova.com> wrote:
Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:21:08 GMT, John Briggs ha scritto:
Except that "thy Ministers" could also mean "your angels". Don't forget
"When the whirlwind of fury comes from the / Throne of God, when the frowns
of his countenance / Drive the nations together, who can stand ?"
Yes, but I think it could be a too much forced interpretation. How can the
angels cause violence and wars?
I prefer the Robin Bignall interpretation, in my opinion.
Not so fast, Rocky. John has a very good point. Not all angels are
good. Isn't Satan a fallen angel, the leader of the other fallen
angels? I am not a believer, so my knowledge of such matters ends
there.
I don't think this is the case. The "fiends of hell" have already been |
mentioned and there is no way that Satan & Co, can be described as "thy
ministers".
Regards, Einde o'callaghan |
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Robin Bignall
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Informations about William Blake? |
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On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 06:39:29 +0100, "einde. ocallaghan" <"einde.
ocallaghan"@planet-interkom.de> wrote:
| Quote: | Robin Bignall wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:16:40 GMT, Rocky3 <prova@prova.com> wrote:
Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:21:08 GMT, John Briggs ha scritto:
Except that "thy Ministers" could also mean "your angels". Don't forget
"When the whirlwind of fury comes from the / Throne of God, when the frowns
of his countenance / Drive the nations together, who can stand ?"
Yes, but I think it could be a too much forced interpretation. How can the
angels cause violence and wars?
I prefer the Robin Bignall interpretation, in my opinion.
Not so fast, Rocky. John has a very good point. Not all angels are
good. Isn't Satan a fallen angel, the leader of the other fallen
angels? I am not a believer, so my knowledge of such matters ends
there.
I don't think this is the case. The "fiends of hell" have already been
mentioned and there is no way that Satan & Co, can be described as "thy
ministers".
You're right, of course. I took a look at a couple of sites on Blake, |
and one of his main motivations was his belief in freeing the soul
from *organised* religion.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Hertfordshire
England |
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Rocky3
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:12 am
Post subject: Re: Informations about William Blake? |
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Il Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:25:50 +0000, Robin Bignall ha scritto:
| Quote: | I don't think this is the case. The "fiends of hell" have already been
mentioned and there is no way that Satan & Co, can be described as "thy
ministers".
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I agree with him, because if Blake wanted to consider the devils as
Ministers of Heaven, he wouldn't mention the "fiends of Hell" some lines
above the last one. He would define all the angels (and the devils) as a
unique genre, instead he make a difference between the two categories.
| Quote: | You're right, of course. I took a look at a couple of sites on Blake,
and one of his main motivations was his belief in freeing the soul
from *organised* religion.
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This is the key which let us to interpret the whole poem, and in particular
the last line. Blake believes in God, but not in the Church and in the
religion built by the man.
Rocky3 |
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Pangolin
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:43 pm
Post subject: |
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But we're neglecting two pertinent factors:
A) The kings and nobles were often traditionally viewed AS Heaven's ministers: the Divine Right of Kings, springs to mind as an example of this doctrine. It was especially prevalent in areas, like Blake's England, where the nation had already broken away from the Roman Catholic Church.
B) I take it you're not familiar with the Bible, which is a shame since much of Blake's work is grounded in biblical language and the imagery. In said book, particularly in the book of Revelation (or the Apocalypse of St. John as it is also known--"apocalypse" being a rough transliteration of the Greek word for "revelation") God is represented as sending a number of angels to wreak terrible destructions on the Earth as a consequence of humanity's sins and a presage to the final destruction of the Last Days: in these days there were to be wars and rumours of wars, pollutions of the Earth, a loss of love and brotherhood among human beings, the hearts of even the faithful were to be filled with terror and weakness, etc. Furthermore, in a number of Old Testament accounts, especially the case of Elisha in 2 Kings 6:16 or in the account of the Israelite's Exodus, angels were sent to reap death and destruction among the armies of the wicked. Angels were often seen as instruments of divine wrath.
Much of Blake's own desire was to recapture the ancient prophetic model, and by decrying the sin and cruelty of humankind, help them return to the innocent, child-like state he envisioned as having been their original condition: he was oft-described as having his body in London and mind in Jerusalem, if memory serves me right. He wanted to be a Prophet or an angel himself, as his "O for a voice like thunder" introduction indicates.
He definitely objected to organized religion, but more than that he objected to organized society of any kind: he believed in freedom, a return to nature and a romanticized vision of the idyllic, arcadian life.
I personally had always taken the last two lines to be separate declarations, the first aimed at humanity for the sins of its leaders and the second aimed at Heaven for the sins of those who claimed to be its servants. But I may have to reconsider that, remembering that Kings and nobles were seen as God's intermediaries, above even the clergy in the old protestant heirarchy. |
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