| Author |
Message |
Matthew Huntbach
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation |
|
|
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005, Dave Clarke wrote:
| Quote: | On Saturday 29 January 2005 00:09 Giles Todd wrote:
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:17:30 +0000, Matthew Huntbach
mmh@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
At the time of the French Revolution, most French people did not speak
French. They spoke a variety of dialects. If you travelled from Paris to
Madrid you would have come across a variety of languages with a gradual
shading from what became standard French through varieties of Occitan
and Catalan to what became standard Castilian Spanish (not to mention
Basque).
The seamless transition of Castilian into Basque (or vice versa) would
be quite a stunt. Where are these dialects spoken?
I assume he meant that Basque was in the middle there, although Basque is
unrelated to any of the surrounding languages, which is what I think you
are referring to. Then, on the Spanish side you have Fabla (not sure of the
spelling there) and a few of little pyreneean languages as well, which are
still used, some confined to a single valley.
|
Yes, that is exactly what I meant. There are two separate phenomena here -
one the gradual change in a language, the other a sudden boundary between
two languages of different origins. I am well aware that Basque is
completely unrelated to the Romance languages. The fact that Basque
exists as a separate language does not invalidate my point that before
the development of standard forms there would have been a huge variety
of language use across France and Spain which was all varieties of the
Romance family and no clear dividing lines where you could say one form
ended and another began, or clear division between "language" and "dialect".
In the same way (although much less dramatically) if you travelled from
north to south in England, you will hear changes in language usage,
there is no clear boundary between northern and southern English. The
existence of Welsh to the west, a completely separate language, does not
invalidate that point.
I mentioned Basque because if I hadn't no doubt someone would have come
along and posted a reply saying I hadn't.
Matthew Huntbach |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
HB
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:09 am
Post subject: Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation |
|
|
Matthew Huntbach wrote:
| Quote: | In the same way (although much less dramatically) if you travelled
from north to south in England, you will hear changes in language
usage, there is no clear boundary between northern and southern
English. The existence of Welsh to the west, a completely separate
language, does not invalidate that point.
|
The same goes for the whole of Western Europe:
Let's take the verb conjugation in the present form:
The northern languages (Danish, Norwegian, Swedish) have the same form
for all persons
(jag talar, du talar, ..., vi talar, ...)
A bit more to the south (English, Dutch German) the same form still
goes for the plural, but there is a different form for the singular (ik
spreek, jij spreekt, hij spreekt, wij spreken, jullie spreken, zij
spreken)
And in the south (Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, French) forms are
different for all persons (hablo, hablas, habla, hablamos, habláis,
hablan).
I'm sure there are more examples like this one.
- HB - |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Si Nicholls
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation |
|
|
Apologies for this being entirely anecdotal and late on the discussion but I
read somewhere that if you want to hear Shakespeare's plays being performed
in an accent as near to the original as possible you should see a
performance by a Northern Irish/Belfast theatre company. I understand that
their accent is the nearest modern day equivalent to the West Midland accent
in Shakespeare's day?
Can anyone shed any light on this assertion?
Regards,
Si Nicholls
Rugby, Warwickshire
"moi" <moi@moi.net> wrote in message
news:%tYKd.418$ds6.165@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
| Quote: | I don't know how they were pronounced by Shakespeare but they still rhyme
for me - from the North East of England.
"Claus Tondering" <claus@tondering.dk> wrote in message
news:uzmyy34u6.fsf@tondering.dk...
Shakespeare happily rhymed "blood" with "good". How were those two
words pronounced in his time? Do we know?
--
Claus Tondering
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Stevens
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation |
|
|
Si Nicholls wrote:
| Quote: | Apologies for this being entirely anecdotal and late on the
discussion but I read somewhere that if you want to hear
Shakespeare's plays being performed in an accent as near to the
original as possible you should see a performance by a Northern
Irish/Belfast theatre company. I understand that their accent is the
nearest modern day equivalent to the West Midland accent in
Shakespeare's day?
Can anyone shed any light on this assertion?
|
Surely Shakespeare's play would have been performed with a London accent?
That's where he worked.
--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus II
Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island. So is Man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Peter Duncanson
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation |
|
|
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:28:48 -0000, "Si Nicholls" <si@sinicholls.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Apologies for this being entirely anecdotal and late on the discussion but I
read somewhere that if you want to hear Shakespeare's plays being performed
in an accent as near to the original as possible you should see a
performance by a Northern Irish/Belfast theatre company. I understand that
their accent is the nearest modern day equivalent to the West Midland accent
in Shakespeare's day?
Can anyone shed any light on this assertion?
As someone living in Northern Ireland, the most accurate comment I can make |
on the correctness of this assertion is "yes, no or maybe".
There are many different accents in Northern Ireland.
Different accents and varieties of English have been brought here over the
centuries by migrants from England, Scotland, and Wales.
It is possible that there are people here who speak with an accent that is
"the nearest modern day equivalent to the West Midland accent in
Shakespeare's day".
However, if I remember correctly, Shakespeare's plays were first performed
in London, by actors living in London. I don't know what accents they had,
but I would be very surprised if they all had West Midland's accents.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Danny Collman
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:25 am
Post subject: Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation |
|
|
In message <383b7vF5j6q2lU1@individual.net>, Si Nicholls
<si@sinicholls.com> writes
| Quote: | Apologies for this being entirely anecdotal and late on the discussion but I
read somewhere that if you want to hear Shakespeare's plays being performed
in an accent as near to the original as possible you should see a
performance by a Northern Irish/Belfast theatre company. I understand that
their accent is the nearest modern day equivalent to the West Midland accent
in Shakespeare's day?
Can anyone shed any light on this assertion?
Regards,
Si Nicholls
Rugby, Warwickshire
|
Actually, I would be inclined to think that the USA, New England -
Connecticut, New Hampshire, are more likely to have the nearest modern
day equivalent of the accent.
--
Danny Collman, Birmingham |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Matthew Huntbach
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation |
|
|
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Peter Duncanson wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:28:48 -0000, "Si Nicholls" <si@sinicholls.com> wrote:
I read somewhere that if you want to hear Shakespeare's plays being
performed in an accent as near to the original as possible you should
see a performance by a Northern Irish/Belfast theatre company.
As someone living in Northern Ireland, the most accurate comment I can make
on the correctness of this assertion is "yes, no or maybe".
There are many different accents in Northern Ireland.
Different accents and varieties of English have been brought here over the
centuries by migrants from England, Scotland, and Wales.
|
However, there are identifiable features which are common in speech
across Northern Ireland. Those of us with some familiarity with accents
don't find it to detect from their speech when someone comes from the
province.
I guess what was really meant is that Northern Irish speech has kept some
features of English which have changed in English as spoken in England.
In particular, it hasn't had the great shift in pronunciation of vowels
that has taken place particualrly in south-eastern English since
Elizabethan times.
Matthew Huntbach |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Phil C.
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:21 am
Post subject: Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation |
|
|
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:15:20 +0000, Matthew Huntbach
<mmh@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Peter Duncanson wrote:
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:28:48 -0000, "Si Nicholls" <si@sinicholls.com> wrote:
I read somewhere that if you want to hear Shakespeare's plays being
performed in an accent as near to the original as possible you should
see a performance by a Northern Irish/Belfast theatre company.
As someone living in Northern Ireland, the most accurate comment I can make
on the correctness of this assertion is "yes, no or maybe".
There are many different accents in Northern Ireland.
Different accents and varieties of English have been brought here over the
centuries by migrants from England, Scotland, and Wales.
However, there are identifiable features which are common in speech
across Northern Ireland. Those of us with some familiarity with accents
don't find it to detect from their speech when someone comes from the
province.
I guess what was really meant is that Northern Irish speech has kept some
features of English which have changed in English as spoken in England.
In particular, it hasn't had the great shift in pronunciation of vowels
that has taken place particualrly in south-eastern English since
Elizabethan times.
|
It just sounds to me like something from a publicity handout by the
Belfast Tourist Board but perhaps I'm cynical.
--
Phil C. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
einde. ocallaghan
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:01 am
Post subject: Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation |
|
|
Si Nicholls wrote:
| Quote: | Apologies for this being entirely anecdotal and late on the discussion but I
read somewhere that if you want to hear Shakespeare's plays being performed
in an accent as near to the original as possible you should see a
performance by a Northern Irish/Belfast theatre company. I understand that
their accent is the nearest modern day equivalent to the West Midland accent
in Shakespeare's day?
Can anyone shed any light on this assertion?
I've heard that the closest is a modern broad Yorkshire accent - equally |
anecdotal. On the other hand both accents are strongly rhotic like the
English of Shakespeare's time and unlike the modern RP accent of most
Shakespearean actors.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
einde. ocallaghan
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:04 am
Post subject: Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation |
|
|
Mike Stevens wrote:
| Quote: | Si Nicholls wrote:
Apologies for this being entirely anecdotal and late on the
discussion but I read somewhere that if you want to hear
Shakespeare's plays being performed in an accent as near to the
original as possible you should see a performance by a Northern
Irish/Belfast theatre company. I understand that their accent is the
nearest modern day equivalent to the West Midland accent in
Shakespeare's day?
Can anyone shed any light on this assertion?
Surely Shakespeare's play would have been performed with a London accent?
That's where he worked.
|
The modern London accent is apparently quite different from that of
Shakespeare's time - for example, none of his Londoners is a chirpy
Cockney, whereas he has a good go at copying Irish, Scottish and Welsh
accents in Henry IV Part II in a way that is still recognisable 400
years later.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
einde. ocallaghan
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:09 am
Post subject: Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation |
|
|
Phil C. wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:15:20 +0000, Matthew Huntbach
mmh@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> wrote:
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Peter Duncanson wrote:
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:28:48 -0000, "Si Nicholls" <si@sinicholls.com> wrote:
I read somewhere that if you want to hear Shakespeare's plays being
performed in an accent as near to the original as possible you should
see a performance by a Northern Irish/Belfast theatre company.
As someone living in Northern Ireland, the most accurate comment I can make
on the correctness of this assertion is "yes, no or maybe".
There are many different accents in Northern Ireland.
Different accents and varieties of English have been brought here over the
centuries by migrants from England, Scotland, and Wales.
However, there are identifiable features which are common in speech
across Northern Ireland. Those of us with some familiarity with accents
don't find it to detect from their speech when someone comes from the
province.
I guess what was really meant is that Northern Irish speech has kept some
features of English which have changed in English as spoken in England.
In particular, it hasn't had the great shift in pronunciation of vowels
that has taken place particualrly in south-eastern English since
Elizabethan times.
It just sounds to me like something from a publicity handout by the
Belfast Tourist Board but perhaps I'm cynical.
|
I find it difficult to imagine Hamlet speaking with an accent like Gerry
Adams or King Lear with an accent like the Reverend Ian Paisley. Indeed
the mind does quite a bit of boggling. ;-)
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Hall
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:45 am
Post subject: Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation |
|
|
In article <386jh0F5jf9ueU2@individual.net>,
einde. ocallaghan <"einde. ocallaghan"@planet-interkom.de> writes:
| Quote: | I find it difficult to imagine Hamlet speaking with an accent like
Gerry Adams or King Lear with an accent like the Reverend Ian Paisley.
Indeed the mind does quite a bit of boggling. 
|
I think the latter might work rather well.
--
John Hall
"If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts;
but if he will be content to begin with doubts,
he shall end in certainties." Francis Bacon (1561-1626) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Stevens
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:11 am
Post subject: Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation |
|
|
einde. ocallaghan" <"einde. ocallaghan wrote:
| Quote: | Mike Stevens wrote:
Si Nicholls wrote:
Apologies for this being entirely anecdotal and late on the
discussion but I read somewhere that if you want to hear
Shakespeare's plays being performed in an accent as near to the
original as possible you should see a performance by a Northern
Irish/Belfast theatre company. I understand that their accent is the
nearest modern day equivalent to the West Midland accent in
Shakespeare's day?
Can anyone shed any light on this assertion?
Surely Shakespeare's play would have been performed with a London
accent? That's where he worked.
The modern London accent is apparently quite different from that of
Shakespeare's time
|
That's undoubtedly true. The cross-influence of working-class London
accents and what was the Court accent and later became RP is a complicated
one. At any given time in the last 600 years or so, the Court accent has
been eveolving toweards the demotic London accent while the demotic Londion
accent has been evolving into something entirely different, as though to
escape from it.
My maternal grandmother, born a working-class Londoner circa 1890, had a lot
of speech-mannerisms which by the time she was an old lady had become the
province of the upper classes.
I've also heard it claimed that the London/Court speech of Shakespeare's
time finds its nearest equivalent in recent times in the Devon accent. I
have absolutely no way of knowing how true that might be.
--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus II
Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island. So is Man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Phil C.
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation |
|
|
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 23:11:45 -0000, "Mike Stevens"
<michael.stevens@which.net> wrote:
| Quote: | I've also heard it claimed that the London/Court speech of Shakespeare's
time finds its nearest equivalent in recent times in the Devon accent. I
have absolutely no way of knowing how true that might be.
|
To add to all the other claims in this thread I've also heard one for
the southern Irish accent. The reality, I guess, is that beyond
certain broad assumptions we have no way of knowing exactly how they
sounded then. The accent surely varied considerably over short
distances and evolved during the period.
--
Phil C. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Matthew Huntbach
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation |
|
|
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, Phil C. wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 23:11:45 -0000, "Mike Stevens"
michael.stevens@which.net> wrote:
I've also heard it claimed that the London/Court speech of Shakespeare's
time finds its nearest equivalent in recent times in the Devon accent. I
have absolutely no way of knowing how true that might be.
To add to all the other claims in this thread I've also heard one for
the southern Irish accent. The reality, I guess, is that beyond
certain broad assumptions we have no way of knowing exactly how they
sounded then. The accent surely varied considerably over short
distances and evolved during the period.
|
The reality is that language changes and in different places different
changes take part. So you'd expect almost anywhere to have some
features in its accent that were once universal but have been lost in
some accents elsewhere. However, it does seem to be the case that language
change is particularly dynamic in London and that therefore the
speech of London today is less like the speech of 16th century English
than the speech of most other English-speaking parts.
Matthew Huntbach |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
FAQ
Memberlist
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in