| Author |
Message |
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:38 pm
Post subject: "An Historic" |
|
|
Growing up in the 50s, we were taught "an" was used before historic and
historical. Now even the New York Times uses "a historic". When did
this change and why?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Donna Richoux
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:51 pm
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
|
|
<cosmopolite@webtv.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Growing up in the 50s, we were taught "an" was used before historic and
historical. Now even the New York Times uses "a historic". When did
this change and why?
|
It's not as simple as that. You imply it used to be all one way and now
it's all the other. Actually, usage was divided 100 years ago
(Mastertexts.com shows that) and it is divided today (Google shows
that).
"a historic" 1,290,000
"an historic" 630,000 Ratio 2:l
A ratio that low is about the same as widely accepted variants as
"color/colour".
For the very specific question of whether newspapers like the New York
Times uses to consistently write "an historic" or "a historic," and when
that changed, the folks here with access to newspaper archives should be
able to check.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CyberCypher
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:31 pm
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
|
|
wrote on 03 Nov 2004:
| Quote: | Growing up in the 50s, we were taught "an" was used before
historic and historical. Now even the New York Times uses "a
historic". When did this change and why?
|
"anhistoric" is something like "anabolic": it should be used only befor
the noun "steroid".
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:43 pm
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
|
|
On 03 Nov 2004, CyberCypher wrote
| Quote: | wrote on 03 Nov 2004:
Growing up in the 50s, we were taught "an" was used before
historic and historical. Now even the New York Times uses "a
historic". When did this change and why?
"anhistoric" is something like "anabolic":
|
?? What on earth's in that medication you're on?
| Quote: | it should be used only befor the noun "steroid".
|
To my mind's ear, "a historic" has the "a as in ray" sound. For this
historian that's *way* too close for comfort to other "a-" forms like
"amoral" and "aseptic".
Primarily for that reason -- but also because the "h" sound in
"historic" for me is vestigial at most -- "an historic" it will remain:
you simply won't convince me it's inappropriate.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CyberCypher
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:53 pm
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
|
|
Harvey Van Sickle wrote on 03 Nov 2004:
| Quote: | On 03 Nov 2004, CyberCypher wrote
wrote on 03 Nov 2004:
Growing up in the 50s, we were taught "an" was used before
historic and historical. Now even the New York Times uses "a
historic". When did this change and why?
"anhistoric" is something like "anabolic":
?? What on earth's in that medication you're on?
|
Carter's Little Liver Pills and lots of 5Ht.
| Quote: | it should be used only befor the noun "steroid".
To my mind's ear, "a historic" has the "a as in ray" sound.
|
For this American-speaker, it is more like an
unstressed "uh". The "ray"-sounding /a/ is
found in my pronunciation of "ahistoric(al)"
and "amoral".
| Quote: | For this historian that's *way* too close for comfort
to other "a-" forms like "amoral" and "aseptic".
Primarily for that reason -- but also because the "h" sound in
"historic" for me is vestigial at most -- "an historic" it will
remain: you simply won't convince me it's inappropriate.
|
But, Harvey, you are a BrE speaker. It's normal for you to say
"anistoric". For those of us who pronounce the "h", and for those who
do not know better, there is only one rejoinder to the question
"Which is it, 'an historic' or 'a historic'?" Especially if the
questioner is an American-speaker.
And, goodness, I was just trying to be funny. "Anhistoric steroid"? I
had to be kidding.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:09 pm
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
|
|
On 03 Nov 2004, CyberCypher wrote
| Quote: | Harvey Van Sickle wrote on 03 Nov 2004:
|
-snip-
| Quote: | And, goodness, I was just trying to be funny. "Anhistoric
steroid"? I had to be kidding.
|
Oops...a whoosh on me..... (I assumed you were on about ansteriodal or
something techno-medical that I don't have the foggiest about -- I'll
pay more attention next time.)
Going back to this "uh-vs-ray" sound for the "a-" prefix, there is of
course a similar occasional use of "thee" for what's normally "thuh",
and that raises a current peeve of mine. (I'm fairly certain I've
mentioned this before, but that's hardly going to stop me from whining
about it again.)
The train announcements at our station are computerised, with the
disembodied voice saying "The train approaching
platform...[number]...is the...[insert time]...service to...[insert
destination]".
In "is the", the "the" is pronounced as "thuh", and when the time is
eleven-something -- "...is thuh [eleven twenty-five] service to..." --
it's remarkably ugly to hear.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CyberCypher
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:59 pm
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
|
|
Harvey Van Sickle wrote on 04 Nov 2004:
| Quote: | On 03 Nov 2004, CyberCypher wrote
Harvey Van Sickle wrote on 03 Nov 2004:
-snip-
And, goodness, I was just trying to be funny. "Anhistoric
steroid"? I had to be kidding.
Oops...a whoosh on me..... (I assumed you were on about
ansteriodal or something techno-medical that I don't have the
foggiest about -- I'll pay more attention next time.)
Going back to this "uh-vs-ray" sound for the "a-" prefix, there is
of course a similar occasional use of "thee" for what's normally
"thuh", and that raises a current peeve of mine. (I'm fairly
certain I've mentioned this before, but that's hardly going to
stop me from whining about it again.)
The train announcements at our station are computerised, with the
disembodied voice saying "The train approaching
platform...[number]...is the...[insert time]...service
to...[insert destination]".
In "is the", the "the" is pronounced as "thuh", and when the time
is eleven-something -- "...is thuh [eleven twenty-five] service
to..." -- it's remarkably ugly to hear.
I'm as conflicted about those two pronunciations as I am about "new" as |
"nyoo" and "noo". I switch back and forth. The "thee" pronunciation,
though, is usually an emphatic one for me and also means this is "thee
one and thee only one". So I'd approve of the "thuh" pronunciation in
those train announcements. Music to my ears. But I have relative pitch.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CyberCypher
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
|
|
dcw wrote on 04 Nov 2004:
| Quote: | In article <Xns9596F313B135Ecctxt2002@130.133.1.4>,
CyberCypher <cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
But, Harvey, you are a BrE speaker. It's normal for you to say
"anistoric". For those of us who pronounce the "h", and for those
who do not know better, there is only one rejoinder to the
question "Which is it, 'an historic' or 'a historic'?" Especially
if the questioner is an American-speaker.
Lots of BrE speakers do pronounce the "h", and many of those use
"an". Fowler didn't like it, but it shows little sign of
changing.
|
I like that last sentence, David. I will use it the next time someone
tells me that Fowler (1, 2, or 3) says "X".
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark Browne
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:27 am
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
|
|
On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, in alt.usage.english, Harvey Van Sickle
<harvey.news@ntlworld.com> writes
| Quote: | The train announcements at our station are computerised, with the
disembodied voice saying "The train approaching
platform...[number]...is the...[insert time]...service to...[insert
destination]".
In "is the", the "the" is pronounced as "thuh", and when the time is
eleven-something -- "...is thuh [eleven twenty-five] service to..." --
it's remarkably ugly to hear.
|
My assumption is that this is the AmE pronunciation - my teenage
daughter watches a lot of American programmes, and often uses "thuh"
when I would use "thee". It jars somewhat.
--
Mark Browne
If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the
"From" address will be rejected |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Areff
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:23 am
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
|
|
Mark Browne wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, in alt.usage.english, Harvey Van Sickle
harvey.news@ntlworld.com> writes
In "is the", the "the" is pronounced as "thuh", and when the time is
eleven-something -- "...is thuh [eleven twenty-five] service to..." --
it's remarkably ugly to hear.
My assumption is that this is the AmE pronunciation - my teenage
daughter watches a lot of American programmes, and often uses "thuh"
when I would use "thee". It jars somewhat.
|
It's *one* AmE pronunciation, but not *theee* AmE pronunciation. I think
to many (even those who sometimes use it) it still sounds at least a
smidge substandard.
--
Steny '08! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:50 am
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
|
|
CyberCypher wrote:
| Quote: | Harvey Van Sickle wrote on 04 Nov 2004:
On 03 Nov 2004, CyberCypher wrote
Harvey Van Sickle wrote on 03 Nov 2004:
.... |
| Quote: | Going back to this "uh-vs-ray" sound for the "a-" prefix, there is
of course a similar occasional use of "thee" for what's normally
"thuh", and that raises a current peeve of mine. (I'm fairly
certain I've mentioned this before, but that's hardly going to
stop me from whining about it again.)
The train announcements at our station are computerised, with the
disembodied voice saying "The train approaching
platform...[number]...is the...[insert time]...service
to...[insert destination]".
In "is the", the "the" is pronounced as "thuh", and when the time
is eleven-something -- "...is thuh [eleven twenty-five] service
to..." -- it's remarkably ugly to hear.
I'm as conflicted about those two pronunciations as I am about "new"
as
"nyoo" and "noo". I switch back and forth. The "thee" pronunciation,
though, is usually an emphatic one for me and also means this is
"thee
one and thee only one". So I'd approve of the "thuh" pronunciation in
those train announcements. Music to my ears. But I have relative
pitch. |
I say "thee" /Di/ before vowel sounds and for emphasis and "thuh" /@/
otherwise, so "thuh eleven-twenty-five service" sounds bad to me too.
MWCD agrees, but says /D@/ in all positions is Southern. I hear it
fairly often, so maybe one of those linguistic steamrollers is taking
place (but I'm not going to change).
"To" works the same way for me.
I consider "uh" /@/ to be the only standard pronunciation of "a" except
possibly for emphasis, but I find myself saying "ay" /eI/ occasionally.
I'm being corrupted! Anyway, "a historic" can't possibly suggest /eI/
to me, any more than "a hilarious joke" does.
--
Jerry Friedman |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CyberCypher
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:08 am
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
|
|
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com wrote on 04 Nov 2004:
[...]
| Quote: | I say "thee" /Di/ before vowel sounds and for emphasis and "thuh"
/@/ otherwise, so "thuh eleven-twenty-five service" sounds bad to
me too.
|
Now that you mention it, I probably do the same. Thee end.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Donna Richoux
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:43 am
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
|
|
Mark Browne <news@kafana.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, in alt.usage.english, Harvey Van Sickle
harvey.news@ntlworld.com> writes
In "is the", the "the" is pronounced as "thuh", and when the time is
eleven-something -- "...is thuh [eleven twenty-five] service to..." --
it's remarkably ugly to hear.
My assumption is that this is the AmE pronunciation - my teenage
daughter watches a lot of American programmes, and often uses "thuh"
when I would use "thee". It jars somewhat.
|
The usual US custom, to the best of my knowledge, is to pronounce it
"thee" before vowels, and "thuh" before consonants.
thuh best...
thuh first...
thuh supermarket
thee eleven-twenty-five
thee only way
thee American dream
If you try to put "thuh" there, it disappears into something more like
"th'eleven, "th'only" which I suppose might be common in some dialects
but it doesn't sound normal to me.
Do the two of you notice any correlation to the following sound?
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
An American living in the Netherlands |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:57 am
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
|
|
On 03 Nov 2004, Donna Richoux wrote
| Quote: | Mark Browne <news@kafana.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, in alt.usage.english, Harvey Van Sickle
harvey.news@ntlworld.com> writes
In "is the", the "the" is pronounced as "thuh", and when the
time is eleven-something -- "...is thuh [eleven twenty-five]
service to..." -- it's remarkably ugly to hear.
My assumption is that this is the AmE pronunciation - my teenage
daughter watches a lot of American programmes, and often uses
"thuh" when I would use "thee". It jars somewhat.
The usual US custom, to the best of my knowledge, is to pronounce
it "thee" before vowels, and "thuh" before consonants.
thuh best...
thuh first...
thuh supermarket
thee eleven-twenty-five
thee only way
thee American dream
If you try to put "thuh" there, it disappears into something more
like "th'eleven, "th'only" which I suppose might be common in some
dialects but it doesn't sound normal to me.
Do the two of you notice any correlation to the following sound?
|
I see exactly the same correlation as you do (I didn't say anything
about Mark's view of it as a pondial thing; dunno), and that's really
my complaint with the computerised train announcement: when they chose
which of "thee" or "thuh" to use for the "is the [time]" recording,
they picked the wrong one.
The sound of "...is thee [ten-twenty-five] service..." might be a bit
strange, but to my ear it's not anywhere near as gratingly unidiomatic
as "...is thuh [eleven twenty-five]...".
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Areff
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:11 am
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
|
|
Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | The usual US custom, to the best of my knowledge, is to pronounce it
"thee" before vowels, and "thuh" before consonants.
thuh best...
thuh first...
thuh supermarket
thee eleven-twenty-five
thee only way
thee American dream
If you try to put "thuh" there, it disappears into something more like
"th'eleven, "th'only" which I suppose might be common in some dialects
but it doesn't sound normal to me.
|
But what I hear, increasingly, is /D@/ ("thuh") followed by a word
beginning with a nominal vowel, pronounced in such a way that a glottal
stop precedes the vowel. For example, I hear many American speakers
saying "the Internet" as "thuh Innernet" [D@ ?InRnE?].
--
Steny '08! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in