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Ross Howard
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:11 am
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
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On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:38:24 -0500, cosmopolite@webtv.net wrought:
| Quote: | Growing up in the 50s, we were taught "an" was used before historic and
historical. Now even the New York Times uses "a historic". When did
this change and why?
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Dubya just said it: "an astork victory".
--
Ross Howard
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Steve Hayes
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 9:16 am
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
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On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:38:24 -0500, cosmopolite@webtv.net wrote:
| Quote: | Growing up in the 50s, we were taught "an" was used before historic and
historical. Now even the New York Times uses "a historic". When did
this change and why?
|
You'd have to check back issues of the New York Times.
Newsppaers rarely announce opr explain changes to their style, so they can be
difficult to spot.
The only exception I am aware of is that a number of newspapers announced
their change from -ize to -ise, and maintained that various experts had
determined that it was easier to read.
The headline in at least two of them (The Times and the Johannesburg Star) was
"The ise (and they eyes) have it".
The Star used the headline twice -- once when reporting the change in the
Times, and again a few years later, when reporting their own change.
The Star also used to use the idiosyncratec spelling "trolly", but I don't
recall them announcing why they had changed to it or from it (though they may
still use it).
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
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Aokay (David G. Bryce)
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:44 pm
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
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On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 19:57:11 GMT, Harvey Van Sickle
<harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | when they chose
which of "thee" or "thuh" to use for the "is the [time]" recording,
they picked the wrong one.
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Bad programming. Should have been use "thuh" except when following
vowel is ....
But what do you expect when a Canadian railway buys software from
(presumptively) an American source which (presumptively) came from
a non-native English speaking source? Eh?
aok
\
Use your name (or almost anything else) @ treveneth.com for email.
This will work unless you or somebody else who has done the same
thing has put me on spammers' lists. Ain't redirection marvellous? [g]
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:06 pm
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
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On 04 Nov 2004, Aokay (David G. Bryce) wrote
| Quote: | On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 19:57:11 GMT, Harvey Van Sickle
harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
when they chose
which of "thee" or "thuh" to use for the "is the [time]"
recording, they picked the wrong one.
Bad programming. Should have been use "thuh" except when following
vowel is ....
But what do you expect when a Canadian railway buys software from
(presumptively) an American source which (presumptively) came from
a non-native English speaking source? Eh?
|
?? As it says in my sig, I live in southern England (and have for over
20 years); the railway involved is South West Trains, running into
London Waterloo.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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Mark Browne
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:44 am
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
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On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, in alt.usage.english, Donna Richoux
<trio@euronet.nl> writes
| Quote: | Mark Browne <news@kafana.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, in alt.usage.english, Harvey Van Sickle
harvey.news@ntlworld.com> writes
In "is the", the "the" is pronounced as "thuh", and when the time is
eleven-something -- "...is thuh [eleven twenty-five] service to..." --
it's remarkably ugly to hear.
My assumption is that this is the AmE pronunciation - my teenage
daughter watches a lot of American programmes, and often uses "thuh"
when I would use "thee". It jars somewhat.
The usual US custom, to the best of my knowledge, is to pronounce it
"thee" before vowels, and "thuh" before consonants.
thuh best...
thuh first...
thuh supermarket
thee eleven-twenty-five
thee only way
thee American dream
If you try to put "thuh" there, it disappears into something more like
"th'eleven, "th'only" which I suppose might be common in some dialects
but it doesn't sound normal to me.
Do the two of you notice any correlation to the following sound?
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Pretty much, although I would have no real problem saying "thee
ten-twenty-five", although it would not be usual.
--
Mark Browne
If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the
"From" address will be rejected |
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Aokay (David G. Bryce)
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:06 pm
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
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On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:06:11 GMT, Harvey Van Sickle
<harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On 04 Nov 2004, Aokay (David G. Bryce) wrote
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 19:57:11 GMT, Harvey Van Sickle
harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
when they chose
which of "thee" or "thuh" to use for the "is the [time]"
recording, they picked the wrong one.
Bad programming. Should have been use "thuh" except when following
vowel is ....
But what do you expect when a Canadian railway buys software from
(presumptively) an American source which (presumptively) came from
a non-native English speaking source? Eh?
?? As it says in my sig, I live in southern England (and have for over
20 years); the railway involved is South West Trains, running into
London Waterloo.
|
You mean I'm supposed to read more than half of the first line of
a sig? [gg]
I'm not a hopeless case -- I frequently read all of the right-hand
side of Evan K's sigs. They're interesting even when he recycles
them as he surely must.
Would you like to wager some nominal sum on the likelihood that
South West Trains (or the station managers) bought the same kind
of imperfect software?
aokay
A transplant to Muskoka from Toronto |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 4:24 pm
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
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On 05 Nov 2004, Aokay (David G. Bryce) wrote
| Quote: | On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 08:06:11 GMT, Harvey Van Sickle
harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
On 04 Nov 2004, Aokay (David G. Bryce) wrote
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 19:57:11 GMT, Harvey Van Sickle
harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
when they chose which of "thee" or "thuh" to use for the "is
the [time]" recording, they picked the wrong one.
Bad programming. Should have been use "thuh" except when
following vowel is ....
|
-snip-
| Quote: | Would you like to wager some nominal sum on the likelihood that
South West Trains (or the station managers) bought the same kind
of imperfect software?
|
Oh, I'm sure they did! But although it could have been programmed to
select one or t'other, just recording it as "thee" would've worked well
enough to my ear.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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John Holmes
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:08 pm
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: |
I say "thee" /Di/ before vowel sounds and for emphasis and "thuh" /@/
otherwise, so "thuh eleven-twenty-five service" sounds bad to me too.
MWCD agrees, but says /D@/ in all positions is Southern. I hear it
fairly often, so maybe one of those linguistic steamrollers is taking
place (but I'm not going to change).
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Are the dialects that use /D@/ in all positions the same ones that often
have 'a' rather than 'an' before vowels? I wonder whether some people
just never absorb the distinction between vowels and consonants at a
young enough age to be able to instinctively apply it the way that most
of us do naturally.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus those of alt.usage.english
at tpg dot com dot au |
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John Seeliger
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:49 am
Post subject: Re: "An Historic" |
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<cosmopolite@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6073-4188D140-2@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net...
| Quote: | Growing up in the 50s, we were taught "an" was used before historic and
historical. Now even the New York Times uses "a historic". When did
this change and why?
|
Got another one
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041106/ap_on_re_mi_ea/arafat_envoys_speak_1:
"As for Sharon, he's pushing through an historic plan to unilaterally
"disengage" from the Palestinians by pulling Israeli troops and settlers out
of the Gaza Strip and four West Bank settlements next year." |
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