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Maria Conlon
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:13 pm
Post subject: Usage of "would have been" |
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From today's _Washington Whispers_ (from USNews & Word Report) ... a
poll:
"Would you have voted for Hillary Rodham Clinton if she, not Sen. John
Kerry, would have been the Democratic nominee for president?"
It seems "would have been" is rapidly replacing "had been."
(Have we discussed this usage before? Yes. But lately, I'm getting
really sick of it.)
Maria Conlon
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Usage of "would have been" |
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Maria Conlon wrote on 03 Nov 2004:
| Quote: | From today's _Washington Whispers_ (from USNews & Word Report) ...
a poll:
"Would you have voted for Hillary Rodham Clinton if she, not Sen.
John Kerry, would have been the Democratic nominee for president?"
It seems "would have been" is rapidly replacing "had been."
(Have we discussed this usage before? Yes. But lately, I'm getting
really sick of it.)
|
If you believe that usage rules, then you can't bitch about this. Just
because the language is being rapidly debased by allowing the
uneducated to use it in print and in other types of media doesn't give
the educated a right to complain. The only solution to this kind of
problem is to switch to a difficult lingua franca for the educated and
consign English to the garbage heap labeled "contemporary vulgate".
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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Django Cat
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Usage of "would have been" |
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On 3 Nov 2004 10:51:53 GMT, CyberCypher
<cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Maria Conlon wrote on 03 Nov 2004:
From today's _Washington Whispers_ (from USNews & Word Report) ...
a poll:
"Would you have voted for Hillary Rodham Clinton if she, not Sen.
John Kerry, would have been the Democratic nominee for president?"
It seems "would have been" is rapidly replacing "had been."
(Have we discussed this usage before? Yes. But lately, I'm getting
really sick of it.)
If you believe that usage rules, then you can't bitch about this. Just
because the language is being rapidly debased by allowing the
uneducated to use it in print and in other types of media doesn't give
the educated a right to complain. The only solution to this kind of
problem is to switch to a difficult lingua franca for the educated and
consign English to the garbage heap labeled "contemporary vulgate".
|
It's a classic example of third conditional. If the journalist had
learnt the form as an L2 learner, he would have put the verb in the
'if' clause in the correct tense. (And that sentence is another one.)
DC, ducking as heavy objects are thrown from Taiwan.
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dcw
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Usage of "would have been" |
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In article <2urpatF2ei1neU1@uni-berlin.de>,
Maria Conlon <mariaconlon001@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | It seems "would have been" is rapidly replacing "had been."
|
It's better than "had of been", but not much.
David |
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Usage of "would have been" |
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Django Cat wrote on 03 Nov 2004:
| Quote: | On 3 Nov 2004 10:51:53 GMT, CyberCypher
cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
Maria Conlon wrote on 03 Nov 2004:
From today's _Washington Whispers_ (from USNews & Word Report)
... a poll:
"Would you have voted for Hillary Rodham Clinton if she, not
Sen. John Kerry, would have been the Democratic nominee for
president?"
It seems "would have been" is rapidly replacing "had been."
(Have we discussed this usage before? Yes. But lately, I'm
getting really sick of it.)
If you believe that usage rules, then you can't bitch about this.
Just because the language is being rapidly debased by allowing the
uneducated to use it in print and in other types of media doesn't
give the educated a right to complain. The only solution to this
kind of problem is to switch to a difficult lingua franca for the
educated and consign English to the garbage heap labeled
"contemporary vulgate".
It's a classic example of third conditional.
|
Now I can't say that I haven't heard of these three types of
meaninglessly ordinalized conditionals, but I still don't understand
what "first", "second", or "third" conditional mean, unless it refers
to "first class", "second class", and "steerage (3rd) class"
conditionals. I'll take the latter as descriptive of "if Hillary
would have been the candidate".
| Quote: | If the journalist had learnt the form as an L2 learner, he
would have put the verb in the 'if' clause in the
correct tense. (And that sentence is another one.)
|
L2 English learners almost always know the grammar of English better
than native speakers of English, and if they are fluent in the
language, they generally don't make such stupid errors, you're right.
| Quote: | DC, ducking as heavy objects are thrown from Taiwan.
|
But I'm not into throwing things these days. I'm looking at the
bloody USA political map and see that the election will play well in
Peoria, and anything that's good enough for Peoria has never been
good enough for the rest of America. The American heartland is an
anti-intellectual cancer. But my motorscooter has a new drive belt
and a new dashboard, and the leaky toilets on the second and third
floors of my house (as in "I own this house. I bought it. I don't
rent it") got fixed today. Those are two reasons for celebration here
in Taiwan.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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Dave Richards
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:23 am
Post subject: Re: Usage of "would have been" |
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On 3 Nov 2004 12:28:23 GMT
CyberCypher <cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
It's a classic example of third conditional.
Now I can't say that I haven't heard of these three types of
meaninglessly ordinalized conditionals, but I still don't understand
what "first", "second", or "third" conditional mean, unless it refers
to "first class", "second class", and "steerage (3rd) class"
conditionals. I'll take the latter as descriptive of "if Hillary
would have been the candidate".
|
Conditional 0:
If you drop an egg, it breaks. (Could also use "when")
Conditional 1:
If it rains, I'll be pissed off.
Conditional 2:
If I won a Ferrari, I'd sell it and buy a Mini instead.
Conditional 3:
If I hadn't drunk that last beer, I would have felt okay this
morning.
| Quote: |
If the journalist had learnt the form as an L2 learner, he
would have put the verb in the 'if' clause in the
correct tense. (And that sentence is another one.)
L2 English learners almost always know the grammar of English better
than native speakers of English, and if they are fluent in the
language, they generally don't make such stupid errors, you're right.
|
They often do know the grammar much better, but sometimes native
language interference leads them to say such things as the example we're
discussing here. Germans do it a lot because that's how you'd formulate
the sentence in German.
Dave |
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R H Draney
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:12 am
Post subject: Re: Usage of "would have been" |
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| Quote: | On 3 Nov 2004 12:28:23 GMT
CyberCypher <cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
It's a classic example of third conditional.
Now I can't say that I haven't heard of these three types of
meaninglessly ordinalized conditionals, but I still don't understand
what "first", "second", or "third" conditional mean, unless it refers
to "first class", "second class", and "steerage (3rd) class"
conditionals. I'll take the latter as descriptive of "if Hillary
would have been the candidate".
|
As near as I can figure it, a first class conditional has the fulcrum in the
middle, second has the load there, and third the applied force....r |
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don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:28 am
Post subject: Re: Usage of "would have been" |
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|
In article <Xns9596D0458CB02cctxt2002@130.133.1.4>, CyberCypher
at cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com poured forth...
| Quote: | Django Cat wrote on 03 Nov 2004:
On 3 Nov 2004 10:51:53 GMT, CyberCypher
cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
Maria Conlon wrote on 03 Nov 2004:
From today's _Washington Whispers_ (from USNews & Word Report)
... a poll:
"Would you have voted for Hillary Rodham Clinton if she, not
Sen. John Kerry, would have been the Democratic nominee for
president?"
It seems "would have been" is rapidly replacing "had been."
(Have we discussed this usage before? Yes. But lately, I'm
getting really sick of it.)
If you believe that usage rules, then you can't bitch about this.
Just because the language is being rapidly debased by allowing the
uneducated to use it in print and in other types of media doesn't
give the educated a right to complain. The only solution to this
kind of problem is to switch to a difficult lingua franca for the
educated and consign English to the garbage heap labeled
"contemporary vulgate".
It's a classic example of third conditional.
Now I can't say that I haven't heard of these three types of
meaninglessly ordinalized conditionals, but I still don't understand
what "first", "second", or "third" conditional mean, unless it refers
to "first class", "second class", and "steerage (3rd) class"
conditionals. I'll take the latter as descriptive of "if Hillary
would have been the candidate".
|
The dreaded Conditional of the Third Kind.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:28 am
Post subject: Re: Usage of "would have been" |
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CyberCypher wrote:
| Quote: | But I'm not into throwing things these days. I'm looking at the
bloody USA political map and see that the election will play well in
Peoria, and anything that's good enough for Peoria has never been
good enough for the rest of America.
|
But Kerry won Illinois by a fairly wide margin. (Though I'm sure Bush was
stronger in "Egypt", the region of Illinois that is to the south of where
Ray Wise is from. Is Peoria in "Egypt"?)
--
Steny '08! |
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don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:35 am
Post subject: Re: Usage of "would have been" |
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|
In article <2urpatF2ei1neU1@uni-berlin.de>, Maria Conlon at
mariaconlon001@hotmail.com poured forth...
| Quote: | From today's _Washington Whispers_ (from USNews & Word Report) ... a
poll:
"Would you have voted for Hillary Rodham Clinton if she, not Sen. John
Kerry, would have been the Democratic nominee for president?"
It seems "would have been" is rapidly replacing "had been."
(Have we discussed this usage before? Yes. But lately, I'm getting
really sick of it.)
|
You may borrow my barf bag. I hate this stuff too. Since they're
talking about the very recent past, I'd prefer "if she were (or
even "was") the Democratic nominee" to "if she would have been
....".
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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Ross Howard
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:37 am
Post subject: Re: Usage of "would have been" |
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|
On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:35:23 -0800, don groves <dgroves@domain.net>
wrought:
| Quote: | In article <2urpatF2ei1neU1@uni-berlin.de>, Maria Conlon at
mariaconlon001@hotmail.com poured forth...
From today's _Washington Whispers_ (from USNews & Word Report) ... a
poll:
"Would you have voted for Hillary Rodham Clinton if she, not Sen. John
Kerry, would have been the Democratic nominee for president?"
It seems "would have been" is rapidly replacing "had been."
(Have we discussed this usage before? Yes. But lately, I'm getting
really sick of it.)
You may borrow my barf bag. I hate this stuff too. Since they're
talking about the very recent past, I'd prefer "if she were (or
even "was") the Democratic nominee" to "if she would have been
...".
|
You're all off track. The Official Millennial Form is "Would you of
voted for HRC if she, not JFK2, would of been the person that the
Democrats would of nominated for president?"
--
Ross Howard |
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don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:38 am
Post subject: Re: Usage of "would have been" |
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|
In article <27@myrtle.ukc.ac.uk>, dcw at D.C.Wood@ukc.ac.uk
poured forth...
| Quote: | In article <2urpatF2ei1neU1@uni-berlin.de>,
Maria Conlon <mariaconlon001@hotmail.com> wrote:
It seems "would have been" is rapidly replacing "had been."
It's better than "had of been", but not much.
|
It would require a loaded pistol at my temple for me to say "had
of been", or "had of <anything>" for that matter.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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Areff
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:05 am
Post subject: Re: Usage of "would have been" |
|
|
Ross Howard wrote:
| Quote: | You're all off track. The Official Millennial Form is "Would you of
voted for HRC if she, not JFK2, would of been the person that the
Democrats would of nominated for president?"
|
That's certainly correct TCE.
--
Steny '08! |
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:05 am
Post subject: Re: Usage of "would have been" |
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Areff wrote on 04 Nov 2004:
| Quote: | CyberCypher wrote:
But I'm not into throwing things these days. I'm looking at the
bloody USA political map and see that the election will play well
in Peoria, and anything that's good enough for Peoria has never
been good enough for the rest of America.
But Kerry won Illinois by a fairly wide margin.
|
Chicago, Chicago, that toddlin' town.
| Quote: | (Though I'm sure
Bush was stronger in "Egypt", the region of Illinois that is to
the south of where Ray Wise is from. Is Peoria in "Egypt"?)
|
I've never been to Peoria, I never hope to go there.
Yes, I can tell you anyhow, I'd rather die than be there.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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| Back to top |
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don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:23 am
Post subject: Re: Usage of "would have been" |
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|
In article <2usog1F2g61onU1@uni-berlin.de>, Areff at
me@privacy.net poured forth...
| Quote: | Ross Howard wrote:
You're all off track. The Official Millennial Form is "Would you of
voted for HRC if she, not JFK2, would of been the person that the
Democrats would of nominated for president?"
That's certainly correct TCE.
|
Yeahbut, folks who speak thataway would'a sayed:
"Would y'all a voted fer HRC if'n her 'n not JFK2 would'a bin the
one them Democrats would'a had runnin' fer preseedent?"
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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