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Alan OBrien
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:00 pm
Post subject: Ravens & crows |
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'If the ravens ever leave the Tower of London...'
Well, I've seen those ravens and they look an awful lot like crows - and I'm
a chicken-sexer.
I heard that the legend of the ravens was thought up by a yankee journalist
in the 1920s. Is that why the word 'raven' was used?
Alan
--
Work like the ponies in coalmines.
Dance like the teardrop explodes.
Love like you're Frank in Blue Velvet.
Sing as though your little throat would burst. |
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Robin Bignall
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Ravens & crows |
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On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:00:32 GMT, "Alan OBrien"
<alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | 'If the ravens ever leave the Tower of London...'
Well, I've seen those ravens and they look an awful lot like crows - and I'm
a chicken-sexer.
I heard that the legend of the ravens was thought up by a yankee journalist
in the 1920s. Is that why the word 'raven' was used?
Alan
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Stone the crows, they're called ravens because that's what they are,
'Corvus corax', a bigger and more intelligent bird than the carrion
crow 'Corvus corone corone' or rook 'Corvus frugilegus'. Because of
their reputation as birds of ill omen, persecution has driven them
away from centres of population, and they tend to live in mountainous
or wild districts.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Hertfordshire
England |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Ravens & crows |
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Alan OBrien wrote:
| Quote: | 'If the ravens ever leave the Tower of London...'
Well, I've seen those ravens and they look an awful lot like crows -
and I'm a chicken-sexer.
|
And I'm a pheasant plucker's son. But I'm raven mad. We even bought a
little doll of Thor on our last visit to the Tower.
| Quote: | I heard that the legend of the ravens was thought up by a yankee
journalist in the 1920s. Is that why the word 'raven' was used?
|
It is perhaps interesting that Brewer doesn't mention that "legend" in
the 1898 edition:
http://www.bartleby.com/81/14093.html
A Guardian article from last year seems to sum it up:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1351360,00.html
"A historian has scoured the records for 1,000 years, and can trace the
ravens back no further than the late 19th century. Geoff Parnell,
official Tower of London historian and a member of the Royal Armouries
staff, is now convinced they are merely a typical piece of Victorian
romance.
Worse, at at least one point in the tower's comparatively history, Dr
Parnell has found the blunt statement in the records "there are none
left" - and yet the monarchy and the tower have more or less survived."
....
"The tower was definitely raven-less by the second world war, when some
were killed in bombing raids, and others understandably pined and died
of shock. The myth was already so powerful however, that when the tower
re-opened to the public, on January 1 1946, at the heart of the ruined
City of London, somehow ravens had been obtained and were back in
place."
....
"The earliest reference he found was 1895, in a piece in the RSPCA
journal, The Animal World. One Edith Hawthorn referred to the tower's
pet cat being tormented by the ravens, Jenny and a nameless mate. The
article also had the first illustration of the ravens and the
unfortunate cat - which Dr Parnell has just managed to buy on eBay (see
illustration, above).
Dr Parnell suspects the first ravens may have been pets kept by Yeomen
or other staff: there was a craze for pet ravens after Edgar Allen Poe's
poem in the 1850s."
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Ravens & crows |
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On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:00:32 GMT, "Alan OBrien"
<alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | 'If the ravens ever leave the Tower of London...'
Well, I've seen those ravens and they look an awful lot like crows - and I'm
a chicken-sexer.
I heard that the legend of the ravens was thought up by a yankee journalist
in the 1920s. Is that why the word 'raven' was used?
Alan
|
There is information, with images of the ravens and the Raven Master, at:
http://www.historic-uk.com/DestinationsUK/TowerRavens.htm
As explained there, ravens are members of the crow family.
More info at:
http://www.hrp.org.uk/webcode/content.asp?ID=212
and:
http://www.camelotintl.com/tower_site/ravens/
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u) |
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Matti Lamprhey
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Ravens & crows |
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"Alan OBrien" <alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote...
| Quote: | 'If the ravens ever leave the Tower of London...'
Well, I've seen those ravens and they look an awful lot like crows -
and I'm a chicken-sexer.
I heard that the legend of the ravens was thought up by a yankee
journalist in the 1920s. Is that why the word 'raven' was used?
|
The legend is undoubtedly based on a story in the Mabinogion, a
collection of ancient Welsh tales. There's a chap in one known as
Blessed Bran whose head was buried on London's White Hill, and it was
said that its presence there ensured that Britain would remain free of
Saxon oppression. White Hill is the site of the Tower of London, and
"bran" is Welsh for raven.
Matti |
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Django Cat
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Ravens & crows |
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On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 15:06:07 +0100, "John Dean"
<john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Alan OBrien wrote:
'If the ravens ever leave the Tower of London...'
Well, I've seen those ravens and they look an awful lot like crows -
and I'm a chicken-sexer.
And I'm a pheasant plucker's son. But I'm raven mad. We even bought a
little doll of Thor on our last visit to the Tower.
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Crow on!
DC |
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M. J. Powell
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Ravens & crows |
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In message <35226oF4ga96uU1@individual.net>, Matti Lamprhey
<matti@official-totally-reversed.com> writes
| Quote: | "Alan OBrien" <alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote...
'If the ravens ever leave the Tower of London...'
Well, I've seen those ravens and they look an awful lot like crows -
and I'm a chicken-sexer.
I heard that the legend of the ravens was thought up by a yankee
journalist in the 1920s. Is that why the word 'raven' was used?
The legend is undoubtedly based on a story in the Mabinogion, a
collection of ancient Welsh tales. There's a chap in one known as
Blessed Bran whose head was buried on London's White Hill, and it was
said that its presence there ensured that Britain would remain free of
Saxon oppression. White Hill is the site of the Tower of London, and
"bran" is Welsh for raven.
|
Um...Would it be Crow. Matti? Hence Cwmbran - Valley of the Crows?
Mike |
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Alan OBrien
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:58 am
Post subject: Re: Ravens & crows |
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"John Dean" <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote in message
news:csgk6i$6ih$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
| Quote: | Alan OBrien wrote:
Dr Parnell suspects the first ravens may have been pets kept by Yeomen
or other staff: there was a craze for pet ravens after Edgar Allen Poe's
poem in the 1850s."
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I wonder if any of those Beefeaters are vegans? |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:04 am
Post subject: Re: Ravens & crows |
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Alan OBrien typed thusly:
| Quote: | 'If the ravens ever leave the Tower of London...'
Well, I've seen those ravens and they look an awful lot like crows - and I'm
a chicken-sexer.
I heard that the legend of the ravens was thought up by a yankee journalist
in the 1920s. Is that why the word 'raven' was used?
|
Is what why the word raven was used? The word raven was used because
the bird are ravens.
We had a pair of ravens nesting in the tower of Chester Cathedral a
few years ago.
--
David
=====
replace usenet with the |
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Matti Lamprhey
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:51 am
Post subject: Re: Ravens & crows |
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"M. J. Powell" <mike@DeLeTe.pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote...
| Quote: | Matti Lamprhey <matti@official-totally-reversed.com> writes
"Alan OBrien" <alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote...
'If the ravens ever leave the Tower of London...'
Well, I've seen those ravens and they look an awful lot like
crows - and I'm a chicken-sexer.
I heard that the legend of the ravens was thought up by a yankee
journalist in the 1920s. Is that why the word 'raven' was used?
The legend is undoubtedly based on a story in the Mabinogion, a
collection of ancient Welsh tales. There's a chap in one known as
Blessed Bran whose head was buried on London's White Hill, and it was
said that its presence there ensured that Britain would remain free
of Saxon oppression. White Hill is the site of the Tower of London,
and "bran" is Welsh for raven.
Um...Would it be Crow. Matti? Hence Cwmbran - Valley of the Crows?
|
"Raven" is the translation I've read for the ancient chap. I don't know
if it makes any difference, but Cwmbrân has a circumflex, and I think he
rubbed along without benefit of accent.
Anyway, ravens are just big crows.
Matti |
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M. J. Powell
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:03 am
Post subject: Re: Ravens & crows |
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In message <352qclF4eg40iU2@individual.net>, Matti Lamprhey
<matti@official-totally-reversed.com> writes
| Quote: | "M. J. Powell" <mike@DeLeTe.pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote...
Matti Lamprhey <matti@official-totally-reversed.com> writes
"Alan OBrien" <alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote...
'If the ravens ever leave the Tower of London...'
Well, I've seen those ravens and they look an awful lot like
crows - and I'm a chicken-sexer.
I heard that the legend of the ravens was thought up by a yankee
journalist in the 1920s. Is that why the word 'raven' was used?
The legend is undoubtedly based on a story in the Mabinogion, a
collection of ancient Welsh tales. There's a chap in one known as
Blessed Bran whose head was buried on London's White Hill, and it was
said that its presence there ensured that Britain would remain free
of Saxon oppression. White Hill is the site of the Tower of London,
and "bran" is Welsh for raven.
Um...Would it be Crow. Matti? Hence Cwmbran - Valley of the Crows?
"Raven" is the translation I've read for the ancient chap. I don't know
if it makes any difference, but Cwmbrân has a circumflex, and I think he
rubbed along without benefit of accent.
Anyway, ravens are just big crows.
|
True.
Mike |
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Christopher Green
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:00 am
Post subject: Re: Ravens & crows |
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On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:03:49 +0000, "M. J. Powell"
<mike@DeLeTe.pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | In message <352qclF4eg40iU2@individual.net>, Matti Lamprhey
matti@official-totally-reversed.com> writes
"M. J. Powell" <mike@DeLeTe.pickmere.demon.co.uk> wrote...
Matti Lamprhey <matti@official-totally-reversed.com> writes
"Alan OBrien" <alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote...
'If the ravens ever leave the Tower of London...'
Well, I've seen those ravens and they look an awful lot like
crows - and I'm a chicken-sexer.
I heard that the legend of the ravens was thought up by a yankee
journalist in the 1920s. Is that why the word 'raven' was used?
The legend is undoubtedly based on a story in the Mabinogion, a
collection of ancient Welsh tales. There's a chap in one known as
Blessed Bran whose head was buried on London's White Hill, and it was
said that its presence there ensured that Britain would remain free
of Saxon oppression. White Hill is the site of the Tower of London,
and "bran" is Welsh for raven.
Um...Would it be Crow. Matti? Hence Cwmbran - Valley of the Crows?
"Raven" is the translation I've read for the ancient chap. I don't know
if it makes any difference, but Cwmbrân has a circumflex, and I think he
rubbed along without benefit of accent.
Anyway, ravens are just big crows.
True.
|
Actually, it's no more true than saying "rooks are just little crows"
or "blue jays are just little blue crows". There are at least eight
species of Corvus commonly called "raven", but the well-known raven is
the Common Raven (C. corax), which is different enough from any
species of crow that no observant person who has seen both ravens and
crows would fail to notice.
The Tower of London ravens are definitely Common Ravens. (There is
nothing common about their treatment; these are pampered tame birds,
cared for by a Yeoman Warder who gets the title Raven Master.)
Ravens are much larger, less gregarious, stronger fliers, and more
carnivorous. In profile, ravens have a distinctive "Roman nose" beak
and shaggy throat feathers; in flight, they have a distinctive
wedge-shaped tail.
Ravens are well-known for their large natural vocabulary and fondness
for imitation. "Though the birds have a wide variety of sounds and
calls they may not be willing to divulge their secrets to us." (Poe)
--
Chris Green |
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Alan OBrien
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:01 am
Post subject: Re: Ravens & crows |
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"Christopher Green" <cj.green@att.net> wrote in message
news:r3jou0l5cvuufbfqpuvk1jlp668bpfpjk7@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 23:03:49 +0000, "M. J. Powell"
Ravens are well-known for their large natural vocabulary and fondness
for imitation. "Though the birds have a wide variety of sounds and
calls they may not be willing to divulge their secrets to us." (Poe)
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I don't remember that line. |
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Glenn Knickerbocker
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Ravens & crows |
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On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:52:36 +0000, Robin Bignall wrote:
| Quote: | 'Corvus corax', a bigger and more intelligent bird than the carrion
crow 'Corvus corone corone' or rook 'Corvus frugilegus'. Because of
their reputation as birds of ill omen, persecution has driven them
away from centres of population, and they tend to live in mountainous
or wild districts.
|
Intelligent? In recent years, they've begun to flock in Poughkeepsie.
¬R "The Home Shopping Network is the New Jersey of Drugs"
http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/engel.html --marika5000 |
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Robin Bignall
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:25 am
Post subject: Re: Ravens & crows |
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On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:48:02 -0500, Glenn Knickerbocker
<NotR@bestweb.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:52:36 +0000, Robin Bignall wrote:
'Corvus corax', a bigger and more intelligent bird than the carrion
crow 'Corvus corone corone' or rook 'Corvus frugilegus'. Because of
their reputation as birds of ill omen, persecution has driven them
away from centres of population, and they tend to live in mountainous
or wild districts.
Intelligent? In recent years, they've begun to flock in Poughkeepsie.
Probably the result of incest. |
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Hertfordshire
England |
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