| Author |
Message |
Sara Lorimer
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:12 am
Post subject: Re: flip-flopper at the ADS |
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Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> wrote:
| Quote: | Sara Lorimer <que.sara.saraDELETE@gmail.com> wrote:
Dominica. I don't think of the Caribbean (which, by the way, I say as
care-eh-BEE-en, not cuh-RIB-ee-en) as being in North America, but I
suppose it is. I should've chosen a better example.
Given your interest in the subject, I suppose you know the Judy
Garland/Gene Kelly movie "The Pirate." There's an amusing line in a song
where the singers have it both ways: "By the Cari-BE-an or Ca-RIB-bean
Sea."
|
Ah, very fair. An easygoing lot, those pirates.
--
SML |
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William R Ward
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:17 am
Post subject: Re: Caribbean |
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Areff <me@privacy.net> writes:
| Quote: | William R Ward wrote:
Other words that vary like that (pondially, I think): suh-HARE-uh
vs. suh-HARR-uh (cf. the song "Tea in the Sahara" by The Police)
Wait, which there is which Pond? I'm guessing that by "HARR" you mean the
"cart" vowel and that you're saying that that is the BrE pronunciation.
Presumably you are MIMIM, that is, you do not distinguish "hairy",
"Harry", and "herry". For *some* of us AmE speakers, however, "Sahara"
has the "Harry" vowel, which is not the "hare" vowel.
|
I don't use the word "herry" so I'm not sure how to pronounce it, but
"hairy" and "Harry" are certainly the same to me.
| Quote: | If BrE really uses "cart" in "Sahara", that seems to run counter to the
usual thing we see ("foreign" words where <a> is interpreted as "cat" by
BrE but "cart" by AmE).
|
Listen to the song (on the Synchronicity album) and let me know how
you would characterize that pronunciation.
--Bill.
--
William R Ward bill@wards.net http://bill.wards.net
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Help save the San Jose Earthquakes - http://www.soccersiliconvalley.com/ |
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Jonathan Jordan
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:33 am
Post subject: Re: Caribbean |
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"Jacqui" <sirlawrenceoblivion@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95E1D16E2F63Fsirlawrenceoblivionh@163.1.2.7...
| Quote: | Areff wrote
If BrE really uses "cart" in "Sahara", that seems to run counter
to the usual thing we see ("foreign" words where <a> is
interpreted as "cat" by BrE but "cart" by AmE).
We do use 'cart' there, yes. At least, all the people I've asked in the
last half hour (three, one Northern, one Southern, one non-native
speaker) do.
|
I use "father", not "cart", but I think most people have the same vowel in
those two words.
| Quote: | It's probably not the only 'foreign' 'cart' sound either,
but I'm trying to think of some more and failing because I'm too tired
(oh, there is a tendency for some people to use it in the last syllable
of ~stan country names, although it's probably not nation-wide).
|
I (Northern) use the "cat" vowel in "-stan".
I think if the spelling suggests a "long" vowel (e.g. followed by a single
consonant then another vowel, like "Sahara", "armada", "salami") then
there's a tendency to use "father". The actual vowel sound in the original
language also has some effect, at least in cases like French and German
which a lot of BrE speakers are familiar with. I think there are going to
be lots of exceptions to any rule, though, and lots of regional and
person-to-person variation.
Jonathan |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:34 am
Post subject: Re: Caribbean |
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Jonathan Jordan wrote:
| Quote: | "Jacqui" <sirlawrenceoblivion@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95E1D16E2F63Fsirlawrenceoblivionh@163.1.2.7...
Areff wrote
If BrE really uses "cart" in "Sahara", that seems to run counter
to the usual thing we see ("foreign" words where <a> is
interpreted as "cat" by BrE but "cart" by AmE).
We do use 'cart' there, yes. At least, all the people I've asked
in
the last half hour (three, one Northern, one Southern, one
non-native
speaker) do.
I use "father", not "cart", but I think most people have the same
vowel in those two words.
It's probably not the only 'foreign' 'cart' sound either,
but I'm trying to think of some more and failing because I'm too
tired (oh, there is a tendency for some people to use it in the
last
syllable of ~stan country names, although it's probably not
nation-wide).
I (Northern) use the "cat" vowel in "-stan".
I think if the spelling suggests a "long" vowel (e.g. followed by a
single consonant then another vowel, like "Sahara", "armada",
"salami") then there's a tendency to use "father". The actual
vowel
sound in the original language also has some effect, at least in
cases like French and German which a lot of BrE speakers are
familiar
with. I think there are going to be lots of exceptions to any
rule,
though, and lots of regional and person-to-person variation.
Jonathan
|
Interesting thing here. Brought up with Aus E, I used the "cat" vowel
with "Pakistan", "dance", etc; but I now, after many years of
culturally-genocidal Anglicisation, use the Southern BrE "cart"
sound. As Jonathan says, though, the perceived native pronunciation
gives "cart" for "Sahara", "salami", etc. I'm sure Australian usage
has "cart" for all these, too. I almost know what's going on, but
don't think I more than half recognize the Areff rule: I just can't
remember the examples at this late hour. I'd need more examples. Is
it that Br-type E says "P&kistahn", while AmE says "Pahkistahn"? In
my Aus youth I'd certainly have said P&k@st&n.
Mike. |
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:10 am
Post subject: Re: Caribbean |
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Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | Jonathan Jordan wrote:
"Jacqui" <sirlawrenceoblivion@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95E1D16E2F63Fsirlawrenceoblivionh@163.1.2.7...
Areff wrote
If BrE really uses "cart" in "Sahara", that seems to run counter
to the usual thing we see ("foreign" words where <a> is
interpreted as "cat" by BrE but "cart" by AmE).
We do use 'cart' there, yes. At least, all the people I've asked
in
the last half hour (three, one Northern, one Southern, one
non-native
speaker) do.
I use "father", not "cart", but I think most people have the same
vowel in those two words.
It's probably not the only 'foreign' 'cart' sound either,
but I'm trying to think of some more and failing because I'm too
tired (oh, there is a tendency for some people to use it in the
last
syllable of ~stan country names, although it's probably not
nation-wide).
I (Northern) use the "cat" vowel in "-stan".
I think if the spelling suggests a "long" vowel (e.g. followed by a
single consonant then another vowel, like "Sahara", "armada",
"salami") then there's a tendency to use "father". The actual
vowel
sound in the original language also has some effect, at least in
cases like French and German which a lot of BrE speakers are
familiar
with. I think there are going to be lots of exceptions to any
rule,
though, and lots of regional and person-to-person variation.
Jonathan
Interesting thing here. Brought up with Aus E, I used the "cat" vowel
with "Pakistan", "dance", etc; but I now, after many years of
culturally-genocidal Anglicisation, use the Southern BrE "cart"
sound.
|
In AmE "Pakistan" commonly has "cat" (for both <a>s) (well, in
can-is-not-can dialects like NYCE the second one is tin-can can), but I
think several other -stan nation-states or like entities have "father".
| Quote: | As Jonathan says, though, the perceived native pronunciation
gives "cart" for "Sahara", "salami", etc. I'm sure Australian usage
has "cart" for all these, too. I almost know what's going on, but
don't think I more than half recognize the Areff rule: I just can't
remember the examples at this late hour. I'd need more examples. Is
it that Br-type E says "P&kistahn", while AmE says "Pahkistahn"? In
my Aus youth I'd certainly have said P&k@st&n.
|
GenAm has /p&k@st&n/, so it's *not* an example of the general rule. I
think the general rule tends to be more applicable to non-proper-name loan
words from other languages.
--
Steny '08! |
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Ross Howard
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:22 pm
Post subject: Re: flip-flopper at the ADS |
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|
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:12:14 -0800, que.sara.saraDELETE@gmail.com
(Sara Lorimer) wrought:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> wrote:
Sara Lorimer <que.sara.saraDELETE@gmail.com> wrote:
Dominica. I don't think of the Caribbean (which, by the way, I say as
care-eh-BEE-en, not cuh-RIB-ee-en) as being in North America, but I
suppose it is. I should've chosen a better example.
Given your interest in the subject, I suppose you know the Judy
Garland/Gene Kelly movie "The Pirate." There's an amusing line in a song
where the singers have it both ways: "By the Cari-BE-an or Ca-RIB-bean
Sea."
Ah, very fair. An easygoing lot, those pirates.
|
Would contemporary pirates (Aaaarrr!) have used the word at all,
though? Wouldn't they have called it "the Spanish Main" or something
equally piratey? (Aaaarrr!)
--
Ross Howard |
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Ross Howard
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:27 pm
Post subject: Re: flip-flopper at the ADS |
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|
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:22:11 +0100, Ross Howard <gguiri@yahoo.com>
wrought:
| Quote: | Would contemporary pirates (Aaaarrr!) have used the word at all,
though? Wouldn't they have called it "the Spanish Main" or something
equally piratey? (Aaaarrr!)
|
Sorry, poor word choice. By "contemporary" I was referring to the
Golden Age of Keel-Hawlin', Plank-Walkin', Parrot-Squawkin', Rum-Kegs
'n'-Peg-Legs Piracy (Aaaarrr!), i.e. 17th-18th century.
--
Ross Howard |
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Ross Howard
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:37 pm
Post subject: Re: Caribbean |
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|
On 17 Jan 2005 14:23:25 GMT, Areff <me@privacy.net> wrought:
| Quote: | William R Ward wrote:
Other words that vary like that (pondially, I think): suh-HARE-uh
vs. suh-HARR-uh (cf. the song "Tea in the Sahara" by The Police)
Wait, which there is which Pond? I'm guessing that by "HARR" you mean the
"cart" vowel and that you're saying that that is the BrE pronunciation.
Presumably you are MIMIM, that is, you do not distinguish "hairy",
"Harry", and "herry". For *some* of us AmE speakers, however, "Sahara"
has the "Harry" vowel, which is not the "hare" vowel.
If BrE really uses "cart" in "Sahara", that seems to run counter to the
usual thing we see ("foreign" words where <a> is interpreted as "cat" by
BrE but "cart" by AmE).
|
I heard another excellent MIMIM word on some TV showgramme or ither
last night: "ex-spearmints".
--
Ross Howard |
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John Dean
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:48 pm
Post subject: Re: flip-flopper at the ADS |
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|
Ross Howard wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:12:14 -0800, que.sara.saraDELETE@gmail.com
(Sara Lorimer) wrought:
Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> wrote:
Sara Lorimer <que.sara.saraDELETE@gmail.com> wrote:
Dominica. I don't think of the Caribbean (which, by the way, I say
as care-eh-BEE-en, not cuh-RIB-ee-en) as being in North America,
but I suppose it is. I should've chosen a better example.
Given your interest in the subject, I suppose you know the Judy
Garland/Gene Kelly movie "The Pirate." There's an amusing line in a
song where the singers have it both ways: "By the Cari-BE-an or
Ca-RIB-bean Sea."
Ah, very fair. An easygoing lot, those pirates.
Would contemporary pirates (Aaaarrr!) have used the word at all,
though? Wouldn't they have called it "the Spanish Main" or something
equally piratey? (Aaaarrr!)
|
I thought the Spanish Main was the area along the Spanish-controlled
coast of South America ("main" = "mainland") while the Caribbean was the
whole nine yards (or whatever it measured from side to side).
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Ross Howard
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:56 pm
Post subject: Re: flip-flopper at the ADS |
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|
On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:48:26 +0100, "John Dean"
<john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrought:
| Quote: | Ross Howard wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:12:14 -0800, que.sara.saraDELETE@gmail.com
(Sara Lorimer) wrought:
Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> wrote:
Sara Lorimer <que.sara.saraDELETE@gmail.com> wrote:
Dominica. I don't think of the Caribbean (which, by the way, I say
as care-eh-BEE-en, not cuh-RIB-ee-en) as being in North America,
but I suppose it is. I should've chosen a better example.
Given your interest in the subject, I suppose you know the Judy
Garland/Gene Kelly movie "The Pirate." There's an amusing line in a
song where the singers have it both ways: "By the Cari-BE-an or
Ca-RIB-bean Sea."
Ah, very fair. An easygoing lot, those pirates.
Would contemporary pirates (Aaaarrr!) have used the word at all,
though? Wouldn't they have called it "the Spanish Main" or something
equally piratey? (Aaaarrr!)
I thought the Spanish Main was the area along the Spanish-controlled
coast of South America ("main" = "mainland") while the Caribbean was the
whole nine yards (or whatever it measured from side to side).
|
Er, yeah. Right. But it have been both. For example, Maracaibo (in
present-day Venezuela) was a port of choice for pirates (Aaaarrr!) to
sack, and that's definitely the Caribbean.
That still leaves the question of what the pirates (Aaaarrr! That's
enough "Crackerjack!" businesss -- Ed.) would have called the waters
that washed Hispaniola (present-day Haiti and the Dominican Republic),
Tortuga (off the northern coast of Haiti) or Port Royal (in Jamaicky)
-- just "the Indies", perhaps?
I don't really know why "Caribbean" sounds not-quite-right for the
17th century to me -- but it just does. I imagine Sara will be able to
set us straight.
--
Ross Howard |
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Maria Conlon
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Caribbean |
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Ross Howard wrote:
| Quote: |
I heard another excellent MIMIM word on some TV showgramme or ither
last night: "ex-spearmints".
|
That's chewed gum, isn't it?
Maria Conlon
Occasional Purchaser of Wrigley's Spearmint |
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Sara Lorimer
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:15 pm
Post subject: Re: flip-flopper at the ADS |
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Ross Howard <wrote:
| Quote: | Er, yeah. Right. But it have been both. For example, Maracaibo (in
present-day Venezuela) was a port of choice for pirates (Aaaarrr!) to
sack, and that's definitely the Caribbean.
That still leaves the question of what the pirates (Aaaarrr! That's
enough "Crackerjack!" businesss -- Ed.) would have called the waters
that washed Hispaniola (present-day Haiti and the Dominican Republic),
Tortuga (off the northern coast of Haiti) or Port Royal (in Jamaicky)
-- just "the Indies", perhaps?
I don't really know why "Caribbean" sounds not-quite-right for the
17th century to me -- but it just does. I imagine Sara will be able to
set us straight.
|
Frustratingly, my contemporary books and my OED are in boxes waiting
(and waiting and waiting) to be unpacked.
--
SML |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:08 am
Post subject: Re: flip-flopper at the ADS |
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retrosorter wrote:
| Quote: | In any case, I was not aware that so many Americans were devotees of
logical positivism.
|
Determining us Americans' philosophies would be impossible--a
sociological investigation could determine only what we claim are our
philosophies--so the subject isn't worth talking about.
--
Jerry Friedman |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:27 am
Post subject: Re: flip-flopper at the ADS |
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|
John Dean wrote:
| Quote: | Ross Howard wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:12:14 -0800, que.sara.saraDELETE@gmail.com
(Sara Lorimer) wrought:
Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> wrote:
Sara Lorimer <que.sara.saraDELETE@gmail.com> wrote:
Dominica. I don't think of the Caribbean (which, by the way, I
say
as care-eh-BEE-en, not cuh-RIB-ee-en) as being in North America,
but I suppose it is. I should've chosen a better example.
.... |
I always thought it had the "marry" vowel for you MINMINMs. Anyway, I
accent the "rib". Your pronunciation is an effete English and
anglophilic one, like "HARass". So there.
| Quote: | Would contemporary pirates (Aaaarrr!) have used the word at all,
though? Wouldn't they have called it "the Spanish Main" or
something
equally piratey? (Aaaarrr!)
I thought the Spanish Main was the area along the Spanish-controlled
coast of South America ("main" = "mainland") while the Caribbean was
the
whole nine yards (or whatever it measured from side to side).
|
MWCD says:
1 the mainland of Spanish America especially along N coast of S.
America
2 the Caribbean Sea & adjacent waters especially at the time when
region was infested with pirates
(I don't know why those "the"s are missing.)
AHD says:
1. The coastal region of mainland Spanish America in the 16th and 17th
centuries, extending from the Isthmus of Panama to the mouth of the
Orinoco River. 2. The section of the Caribbean Sea crossed by Spanish
ships in colonial times. The treasure-laden ships were often raided by
English buccaneers.
So it's settled. The Spanish Main is either bigger or smaller than the
Caribbean Sea.
By the way, AHD needs to sharpen their definition a little, as in the
16th and 17th centuries, mainland Spanish America also included the
rest of the Caribbean coast, from the Isthmus of Panama to Florida,
except Louisiana and the British settlements that became Belize. In
view of that and the many Spanish settlements on Caribbean islands, I
have trouble believing that the entire sea wasn't crossed by Spanish
ships.
--
Jerry Friedman |
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Areff
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:33 am
Post subject: Re: flip-flopper at the ADS |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: | John Dean wrote:
Ross Howard wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:12:14 -0800, que.sara.saraDELETE@gmail.com
(Sara Lorimer) wrought:
Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> wrote:
Sara Lorimer <que.sara.saraDELETE@gmail.com> wrote:
Dominica. I don't think of the Caribbean (which, by the way, I
say
as care-eh-BEE-en, not cuh-RIB-ee-en) as being in North America,
but I suppose it is. I should've chosen a better example.
...
I always thought it had the "marry" vowel for you MINMINMs.
|
In New York City English (The Dialect So Nice They Named It NYCE)
"Caribbean" indeed has the "marry" vowel when the third syllable is
stressed (otherwise it's a schwa). I know that some other MINMINM
dialects differ on what goes into the "marry" class, so this might not be
true for them.
--
Steny '08! |
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