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XyZmass::.
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:59 pm
Post subject: More stupidities |
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"Jack Straw" <thuringbert@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:6bb9224d.0409090849.bae8d90@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | Joanne Marinelli wrote...
In alt.english.usage on 8 Sep 2004 10:42:09 -0700 yaroslavl@gmail.com
(Igor Sklar) posted:
I'm disappointed that Persia changed its beautiful, evocative
name to Iran.
I don't get the point of your regret, or even of your protest. Persia still
survives as a place name, as a classification, e.g., Persian carpet, and as
a historical reference.
How very pragmatic. Girls are always like that :0)
We all survived when Peking became Beijing, and I
see nothing less rich in calling my dinner with an Iranian foreign exchange
student my dinner with an Iranian foreign exchange student. Calling him
Persian would have felt awkward and antiquated. This is the modern world,
after all.
But would it have felt so awkward and antiquated, if the American
governemnt didn't start to use "Iran" in an awkward attempt to appease
some Persian shah?
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To be quite Frank, Jack....who gives a "shit", what the Victors have
to say, about what Iranians are supposed to call themselves, and when
speaking in English!
Or the Mother's Language, which is Persian...
Now All say it in UNI_son
&
Respect!
PS: Refer to Koorosh, the Founder for The NAME of a Nation, He
Created....then as Now, *WE* the iranians, Never should have been
called anything else. Except for Some OLD Iranian Jewish Familys, Whom
Consider Themselves Persian, since they are Recorded to Have had
"their" asses Freed and turned back to Israel!!
When U turn the Flattened Ball on Your Watch, How Far back does it
GO?!?
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Joanne Marinelli
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:09 pm
Post subject: Re: More stupidities |
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"Jack Straw" <thuringbert@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6bb9224d.0409090849.bae8d90@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | Joanne Marinelli wrote...
In alt.english.usage on 8 Sep 2004 10:42:09 -0700 yaroslavl@gmail.com
(Igor Sklar) posted:
I'm disappointed that Persia changed its beautiful, evocative
name to Iran.
I don't get the point of your regret, or even of your protest. Persia
still
survives as a place name, as a classification, e.g., Persian carpet, and
as
a historical reference.
How very pragmatic. Girls are always like that :0)
We all survived when Peking became Beijing, and I
see nothing less rich in calling my dinner with an Iranian foreign
exchange
student my dinner with an Iranian foreign exchange student. Calling him
Persian would have felt awkward and antiquated. This is the modern
world,
after all.
But would it have felt so awkward and antiquated, if the American
governemnt didn't start to use "Iran" in an awkward attempt to appease
some Persian shah?
Jack
|
Your point is over my head Jack. I don't really see this as an issue of
political correctness, or loss of elocution in contemporary usage, which is
what the OP is bitching about--maybe it's because I am a writer, and realize
that eloquence can be had in the encrusted shit beneath a toilet bowl rim,
as whatever else may be said of Pynchon, I'll never forget that passage in
Gravity's Rainbow--which goes to my point. Pynchon didn't need to gloss over
a thing being what it is, unlike Puzo, who had to elevate his diction to
something like *voided his sphincter*. Pynchon could call shit what it was
and still commit a near great act of writing. Puzo's just a great hack
wearing out time worn Sicilian stereotypes.
Persian/Iranian
I see no relative differentiation making one descriptive term less or more
than the other.
Joanne
who got the aesthetic lecture in for the day |
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Tak To
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:25 pm
Post subject: Re: More stupidities |
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Harlan Messinger wrote:
| Quote: | The airport that was known officially as Washington National Airport was
known informally as "National Airport". The official name was changed
several years ago to "Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport" and some
have felt compelled to change the nickname was well, to "Reagan National
Airport". I'm content to keep calling it "National Airport".
|
It's always DCA to me. Likewise, LAX. :-)
Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To takto@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:28 pm
Post subject: Re: More stupidities |
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Harlan Messinger wrote:
| Quote: |
"Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:01g0k0hl7rp7um79clu91uel8p6n7j7008@4ax.com...
However if the country has a nickname it is often possible to continue
using
the nickname after the change of proper name.
The airport that was known officially as Washington National Airport was
known informally as "National Airport". The official name was changed
several years ago to "Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport" and some
have felt compelled to change the nickname was well, to "Reagan National
Airport". I'm content to keep calling it "National Airport".
|
Newark Airport is now supposedly Newark Liberty Airport. No one's wasted
money on changing the road signs yet.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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Tak To
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:31 pm
Post subject: Re: More stupidities |
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Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
| Quote: | Kitay is from Eastern Turkic qIta:y , in the 11th cent and thereabouts
the domain of the Liao (originally qIta:*ny*, through sound changes in
Eastern Turkic it becomes qIta:y , xIta:y , qita:y etc.). Marco Polo
knew eastern turkic and probably had turkic interpreters so place
names appear in turkic garb and agree with western mongolian and
persian sources of that period or shortly after.
|
FWIW, the Khitans probably spoke a Mongolic language.
| Quote: | China is form the Qin dynasty via sanskritor sogdian and persian.
|
Or Qin the tribe, Qin the Kingdom, or from <si> (silk), ...
Tak
--
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To takto@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr |
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Harlan Messinger
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:34 pm
Post subject: Re: More stupidities |
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"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:414092BC.34C9@worldnet.att.net...
| Quote: | Harlan Messinger wrote:
"Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:01g0k0hl7rp7um79clu91uel8p6n7j7008@4ax.com...
However if the country has a nickname it is often possible to continue
using
the nickname after the change of proper name.
The airport that was known officially as Washington National Airport was
known informally as "National Airport". The official name was changed
several years ago to "Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport" and
some
have felt compelled to change the nickname was well, to "Reagan National
Airport". I'm content to keep calling it "National Airport".
Newark Airport is now supposedly Newark Liberty Airport. No one's wasted
money on changing the road signs yet.
|
Congress forced Washington Metro to change the signs on all its stations.
They threatened to withhold funds otherwise. |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:48 pm
Post subject: Re: More stupidities |
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Harlan Messinger wrote:
| Quote: |
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:414092BC.34C9@worldnet.att.net...
Harlan Messinger wrote:
"Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:01g0k0hl7rp7um79clu91uel8p6n7j7008@4ax.com...
However if the country has a nickname it is often possible to continue
using
the nickname after the change of proper name.
The airport that was known officially as Washington National Airport was
known informally as "National Airport". The official name was changed
several years ago to "Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport" and some
have felt compelled to change the nickname was well, to "Reagan National
Airport". I'm content to keep calling it "National Airport".
Newark Airport is now supposedly Newark Liberty Airport. No one's wasted
money on changing the road signs yet.
Congress forced Washington Metro to change the signs on all its stations.
They threatened to withhold funds otherwise.
|
The manager of the Capitol cafeteria says he can't go back to french
fries because of an Act of Congress.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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Joanne Marinelli
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:57 pm
Post subject: Re: More stupidities |
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"Yusuf B Gursey" <ybg@TheWorld.com> wrote in message
news:chq45r$vlr$2@pcls4.std.com...
| Quote: | In sci.lang Joanne Marinelli <Jozanny@yahoo.com> wrote in
3w%%c.571446$Gx4.450061@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>:
: I don't get the point of your regret, or even of your protest. Persia
still
: survives as a place name, as a classification, e.g., Persian carpet, and
as
: a historical reference. We all survived when Peking became Beijing, and
I
: see nothing less rich in calling my dinner with an Iranian foreign
exchange
: student my dinner with an Iranian foreign exchange student. Calling him
: Persian would have felt awkward and antiquated. This is the modern
world,
: after all.
in my interactions with people from Iran it is relevant if they are
"Persian" or not. if he / she is an Azeri for example, I would like to
converse in that language.
it's not an irrelevant point if you know the region.
|
Point taken, and I also realize this is going to an Iranian culture
newsgroup, but I am not arguing about ethnic relevance, of which I'm
ignorant when it comes to Middle Eastern frames of reference-- I was looking
at the words themselves, and to my mind Iranian holds equal footing with
Persian.
As to what makes one Shiite Persian and a Sunni Arab not Persian, (though I
suppose it is regional) I am in the dark there, which I suppose you might
be, as well, if I tried to explain what makes me of Roman descent and not
Sicilian. Italians are highly parochial, and *Sicilian* has a notorious
frame of reference in the U.S. But I don't see how calling the country of
Iran Iran represents some kind of loss to the English language.
Joanne |
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Joanne Marinelli
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:51 am
Post subject: Re: More stupidities |
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"Yusuf B Gursey" <ybg@TheWorld.com> wrote in message
news:chq75i$tuo$1@pcls4.std.com...
| Quote: | In sci.lang Joanne Marinelli <Jozanny@yahoo.com> wrote in
xQ00d.336187$OB3.237690@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>:
: Point taken, and I also realize this is going to an Iranian culture
: newsgroup, but I am not arguing about ethnic relevance, of which I'm
: ignorant when it comes to Middle Eastern frames of reference-- I was
looking
: at the words themselves, and to my mind Iranian holds equal footing with
: Persian.
then change your mind.
Give me a good enough reason to  To my mind, Persia is classical, |
historical and tribal, given your information on that point. Iran is the
name of a modern day country which encompasses part of the ancient Persian
empire. Nothing for me to change.
Joanne |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:30 am
Post subject: Re: More stupidities |
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In alt.english.usage on 9 Sep 2004 09:00:29 -0700 ybg@theworld.com
(Yusuf B Gursey) posted:
| Quote: | "a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<gwU%c.69$jZ1.0@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>...
"meirman" <meirman@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:g5tvj05gnn0qicultqu6ad31bh119g9g11@4ax.com...
In alt.english.usage on 8 Sep 2004 10:42:09 -0700 yaroslavl@gmail.com
(Igor Sklar) posted:
I'm disappointed that Persia changed its beautiful, evocative
name to Iran.
Do you know what Persia was called before it was called Persia?
Iran, or so I'm told.
Well, near enough. The 'Persians' called 'Persia' 'Arian' in 'Persian'!
|
That's nice of you, but I think it's near but not near enough.
| Quote: |
Arian was the Parthian form, and the greek rendition from an Old Persian idiom.
in Middle Persian (Sasanian) it was e:ra:n which became i:ra:n later.
|
I feel better now.
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years |
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Prai Jei
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:58 am
Post subject: Re: More stupidities |
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Igor Sklar (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
<870e846a.0409080942.ea4dd33@posting.google.com>:
| Quote: | I wish that many old Russian names were retained in the language, for
example Stekolnya ("Glass City") for Stockholm, Chud' ('weird folk')
for Estonia, Kolyvan' for Tallinn, and Samoyeds ('self-eaters') for
the Nenets :)
regards
|
But - surely - them places ain't Russian no more :)
We Welsh have exonyms for a few places in the country that occupies the
larger part of Great Britain, but I imagine very few Welsh would really
know where Caerloyw, Croesoswallt or Y Wern could be found in that country.
(Actually the Welsh name Croesoswallt explains the etymology of the rather
scrunched English name for this town.)
--
Paul Townsend
I put it down there, and when I went back to it, there it was GONE!
Interchange the alphabetic elements to reply |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:47 am
Post subject: Re: More stupidities |
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In alt.english.usage on Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:19:07 -0400 "Harlan
Messinger" <h.messinger@comcast.net> posted:
| Quote: |
"Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:01g0k0hl7rp7um79clu91uel8p6n7j7008@4ax.com...
However if the country has a nickname it is often possible to continue
using
the nickname after the change of proper name.
The airport that was known officially as Washington National Airport was
known informally as "National Airport". The official name was changed
several years ago to "Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport" and some
|
Dinah Washington's oldest son was named after Ronald Reagan. She
hoped that he would become an actor. But he became a national hero
when he captured 132 prisoners during the invasion of Grudny, and was
killed the following day by a Grudnik sniper.
| Quote: | have felt compelled to change the nickname was well, to "Reagan National
Airport". I'm content to keep calling it "National Airport".
|
Me, too.
And for similar but not identical reasons, I refer to Oriole Park and
Ravens Stadium. This has already come in handy, as the sponsor of
Raven's Stadium went out of business and they renamed it. But my
nickname remained the same.
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:51 am
Post subject: Re: More stupidities |
|
|
In alt.english.usage on Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:48:53 GMT "Peter T.
Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> posted:
| Quote: | Harlan Messinger wrote:
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:414092BC.34C9@worldnet.att.net...
Harlan Messinger wrote:
"Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:01g0k0hl7rp7um79clu91uel8p6n7j7008@4ax.com...
However if the country has a nickname it is often possible to continue
using
the nickname after the change of proper name.
The airport that was known officially as Washington National Airport was
known informally as "National Airport". The official name was changed
several years ago to "Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport" and some
have felt compelled to change the nickname was well, to "Reagan National
Airport". I'm content to keep calling it "National Airport".
Newark Airport is now supposedly Newark Liberty Airport. No one's wasted
money on changing the road signs yet.
Congress forced Washington Metro to change the signs on all its stations.
They threatened to withhold funds otherwise.
The manager of the Capitol cafeteria says he can't go back to french
fries because of an Act of Congress.
|
And today the Republicans played politics with a resolution
commemorating the third anniversary of 9/11. Despite well-spoken
opposition, they insisted on inserting a "whereas" that said that the
war in Iraq was against terrorism.
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years |
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Yusuf B Gursey
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:55 am
Post subject: Re: More stupidities |
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In sci.lang Joanne Marinelli <Jozanny@yahoo.com> wrote in <Ib60d.337757$OB3.336777@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>:
: "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
: news:4140EA37.6BB4@worldnet.att.net...
:> Joanne Marinelli wrote:
:>
:> > As to what makes one Shiite Persian and a Sunni Arab not Persian,
: (though I
:>
:> Arabs aren't Persian. Anywhere in the world.
:> --
:> Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
: Okay, but I do not really know the difference between Arabic and Semitic as
"Semitic" is just a language group.
"Arab" is an ethnic term, and the only sure definition is
self-identification, as well as acceptance by others as such.
most people who speak arabic (and think of standard arabic as the written
language) and think of themselves as arabs are accepted as such by other
arabs. Maltese is essntially derived from an arbaic dialect (roughly a
thousand years ago), but they do not think of themselves as such and use
their own vernacular as the standard, and they are not considered arabs.
: used to refer to Middle East, or the Islamic world. I have the same problem
: with Jewish, in that sense, whether it is a cultural distinction only, or if
: there are racial characteristics as well which distinguish one from the
: other.
: Joanne |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:39 am
Post subject: Re: More stupidities |
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meirman wrote:
| Quote: | And today the Republicans played politics with a resolution
commemorating the third anniversary of 9/11. Despite well-spoken
opposition, they insisted on inserting a "whereas" that said that the
war in Iraq was against terrorism.
|
They made it so. Captain Picard would be proud.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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