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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:16 am
Post subject: Re: About the sound [&] |
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On 20 Dec 2004 18:28:34 GMT, Areff <me@privacy.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Jonathan Jordan wrote:
No, I was thinking of [gO:n], with the vowel of "caught", as in [gO:n
O:f] for "gone off" - a possibly even more old-fashioned feature (in
England) than the raised /&/.
I'm almost dead sure that /gOn/ is used by many CINC Americans. In my
CINC metadialect, however, New York City English (The Dialect So Nice They
Named It NYCE), "gone" has the "cot" vowel. Indeed, I can't think of any
historical short-o words where the following consonant is /n/ that are in
the "dog" class in NYCE. /N/, sure: long, song, strong, wrong. But not
/n/.
In the Waterbury region of western Connecticut, which is dialectally akin
to the vowel-shifted accents of the Upper Midwest, "gone" gets the
"caught" vowel. Maybe it does in Chicago, Michigan, northern Ohio, coney
country of New York State, etc. too. Ask Erk.
|
Someone sent me a Saturday Humour e-mail which played on a little
boy's impression of his grandparents. They were retards; had to use
golfcarts to get around their Retard Home and the gatekeeper would
not let them take the carts out.
Is that CINC? |
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:25 am
Post subject: Re: About the sound [&] |
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rbaniste1@shaw.ca wrote:
| Quote: | Someone sent me a Saturday Humour e-mail which played on a little
boy's impression of his grandparents. They were retards; had to use
golfcarts to get around their Retard Home and the gatekeeper would
not let them take the carts out.
Is that CINC?
|
No, that sounds more like Southern/South Midland. We know from the
examples of Coop and, perhaps, Ray Wise, that South Midland dialects can
be CIC, or nearly so. I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that Coop
gets "tard" prior to his going to sleep.
--
Steny '08! |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:45 am
Post subject: Re: About the sound [&] |
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On 21 Dec 2004 22:25:01 GMT, Areff <me@privacy.net> wrote:
| Quote: | rbaniste1@shaw.ca wrote:
Someone sent me a Saturday Humour e-mail which played on a little
boy's impression of his grandparents. They were retards; had to use
golfcarts to get around their Retard Home and the gatekeeper would
not let them take the carts out.
Is that CINC?
No, that sounds more like Southern/South Midland. We know from the
examples of Coop and, perhaps, Ray Wise, that South Midland dialects can
be CIC, or nearly so. I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that Coop
gets "tard" prior to his going to sleep.
|
I wonder whether he uses those new strips to give himself wider teeth? |
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don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:21 am
Post subject: Re: About the sound [&] |
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In article <YNCdnZKx37t4SFXcRVn-2w@gbronline.com>, Raymond S.
Wise at mplsrayNOSPAM@gbronline.com hath writ:
| Quote: | "Areff" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:32rm5tF3q1uvbU1@individual.net...
rbaniste1@shaw.ca wrote:
Someone sent me a Saturday Humour e-mail which played on a little
boy's impression of his grandparents. They were retards; had to use
golfcarts to get around their Retard Home and the gatekeeper would
not let them take the carts out.
Is that CINC?
No, that sounds more like Southern/South Midland. We know from the
examples of Coop and, perhaps, Ray Wise, that South Midland dialects can
be CIC, or nearly so. I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that Coop
gets "tard" prior to his going to sleep.
My "tire" is distinct from my "tar," so whatever it is in my speech that
leads some Easterners and Upper-Midwesterners to believe that I have a
Southern accent, it's unlikely to involve my pronunciation of "tire."
What I don't get is what possible connection rbaniste1@shaw.ca saw in a CINC
accent and the "tire" = "tar" accent. The /a/ involved in the diphthong in
"tire"--/aI/, or the "long 'i'"--plays no part in the distinguishing of CIC
accents from CINC accents.
|
Do we have a new one then, TIT?
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:21 am
Post subject: Re: About the sound [&] |
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Raymond S. Wise wrote:
| Quote: | "Areff" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:32rm5tF3q1uvbU1@individual.net...
rbaniste1@shaw.ca wrote:
Someone sent me a Saturday Humour e-mail which played on a little
boy's impression of his grandparents. They were retards; had to use
golfcarts to get around their Retard Home and the gatekeeper would
not let them take the carts out.
Is that CINC?
No, that sounds more like Southern/South Midland. We know from the
examples of Coop and, perhaps, Ray Wise, that South Midland dialects can
be CIC, or nearly so. I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that Coop
gets "tard" prior to his going to sleep.
My "tire" is distinct from my "tar," so whatever it is in my speech that
leads some Easterners and Upper-Midwesterners to believe that I have a
Southern accent, it's unlikely to involve my pronunciation of "tire."
|
Not necessarily. Back when I temporarily resided in Ch*c*g* (TLCIA), and
I think I told this story, the recruiting woman where I w*rked had what
sounded to me like a mild or toned-down Southern accent, and it turned
out that she was apparently from Carbondale, Illinois, which as I understand
it is, to use Joe Williams's words, smack dab in the middle of the region
known as "Egypt", to the south of where you reportedly grew up.
Well anyway, I've also heard some other Midwestern accents, from below the
Inland North/Great Lakes zone, that also have a greater or lesser degree
of Southernness in them. People from non-Northern Ohio,
non-Northern Indiana, etc. I think part of what exists in a lot of these
accents is a *partial* or half-hearted attempt at monophthongization of
/aI/. Now even in bona fide Southern accents that monophthongize /aI/
"tire" and "tar" are, I believe, still distinct. But that subtlety is
going to be lost on an Easterner or Upper Midwesterner.
So listen to your pronounciation of "I", and see whether you're hitting
that [j] element at the end as much as, say, Erk or I am.
--
Steny '08! |
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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:21 am
Post subject: Re: About the sound [&] |
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"Areff" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:32rm5tF3q1uvbU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | rbaniste1@shaw.ca wrote:
Someone sent me a Saturday Humour e-mail which played on a little
boy's impression of his grandparents. They were retards; had to use
golfcarts to get around their Retard Home and the gatekeeper would
not let them take the carts out.
Is that CINC?
No, that sounds more like Southern/South Midland. We know from the
examples of Coop and, perhaps, Ray Wise, that South Midland dialects can
be CIC, or nearly so. I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that Coop
gets "tard" prior to his going to sleep.
|
My "tire" is distinct from my "tar," so whatever it is in my speech that
leads some Easterners and Upper-Midwesterners to believe that I have a
Southern accent, it's unlikely to involve my pronunciation of "tire."
What I don't get is what possible connection rbaniste1@shaw.ca saw in a CINC
accent and the "tire" = "tar" accent. The /a/ involved in the diphthong in
"tire"--/aI/, or the "long 'i'"--plays no part in the distinguishing of CIC
accents from CINC accents.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:17 pm
Post subject: Re: About the sound [&] |
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On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 12:20:12 -0000, Jonathan Jordan wrote:
| Quote: | "FB" <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message
news:17pv0tzna64tt$.d3aoi0qfg2de.dlg@40tude.net...
[...]
I did use it, though I've quite dropped it, because I
hed, er, had a preference for old movies. Besides, it's easier for an
Italian to say [kEt] instead of [c&t].
Presumably [kat] is easy enough, though?
[...] |
By the way, why did [E] shifted to [&]? Is it because such words as "bet"
and "bed" began to be pronounced with a more open vowel sound? I mean,
those who say [E] instead of [&], can't also say [E] instead of [e], can
they?
Bye, FB
--
"It sounds appalling!"
"Interesting and appalling. The others just sound appalling!"
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film) |
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:04 pm
Post subject: Re: About the sound [&] |
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FB wrote:
| Quote: | By the way, why did [E] shifted to [&]? Is it because such words as "bet"
and "bed" began to be pronounced with a more open vowel sound?
|
I don't know why the "cat" vowel shifted downward in much postwar BrE, if
that's what you're asking. Something to do with Butskellism, no doubt.
I think something similar happened in Postwar New York Prestige Standard,
with the "tin can" vowel /aeh/. My theory is that the upward shift of /&/
in Inland Northern dialects such as ErkE (or, indeed, the shift of /&/
before nasals in any number of Northeastern coastal dialects) sounded so
horrifying to Prestige New York speakers that they pulled their own /aeh/
downward to disassociate themselves with such speakers.
--
Steny '08! |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:29 am
Post subject: Re: About the sound [&] |
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On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:00:39 -0600, "Raymond S. Wise"
<mplsrayNOSPAM@gbronline.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "Areff" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:32rm5tF3q1uvbU1@individual.net...
rbaniste1@shaw.ca wrote:
Someone sent me a Saturday Humour e-mail which played on a little
boy's impression of his grandparents. They were retards; had to use
golfcarts to get around their Retard Home and the gatekeeper would
not let them take the carts out.
Is that CINC?
No, that sounds more like Southern/South Midland. We know from the
examples of Coop and, perhaps, Ray Wise, that South Midland dialects can
be CIC, or nearly so. I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that Coop
gets "tard" prior to his going to sleep.
My "tire" is distinct from my "tar," so whatever it is in my speech that
leads some Easterners and Upper-Midwesterners to believe that I have a
Southern accent, it's unlikely to involve my pronunciation of "tire."
What I don't get is what possible connection rbaniste1@shaw.ca saw in a CINC
accent and the "tire" = "tar" accent. The /a/ involved in the diphthong in
"tire"--/aI/, or the "long 'i'"--plays no part in the distinguishing of CIC
accents from CINC accents.
|
I cannot speak for any majority, but far from finding RF 'annoying' I
find him jolly good fun. This stuff's like dangling a ball of wool
over a kitten, you know; results can be hilarious.
I suppose that, as a Yank, your 'tire' is never 'toire' and I
congratulate you on that at least. The BBC demotic seems to be
contained to the nether regions of the UK, though it appears to be
spreading northward. |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:56 am
Post subject: Re: About the sound [&] |
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On 18 Dec 2004 21:18:53 GMT, Areff wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | Oh, but anyway one difference between much BrE and most AmE is that only a
few dialects of AmE have that class of historical cat-vowel words that now
get the father vowel (e.g. "can't").
[...] |
Yesterday I found out (on the bbc4 website) that Patricia Highsmith, who, I
understand, was born in Fort Worth, Texas, and grew up in New York, said
[a:sk]. I was surprised, because it sounded so strange to me for an
American.
Bye, FB
--
After a year of speculation, inventor Dean Kamen unveiled his mysterious
"It", which is a battery-powered two-wheel people mover. Many believe it
will completely revolutionize the way people get hit by cars.
(Saturday Night Live) |
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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:02 pm
Post subject: Re: About the sound [&] |
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rbaniste1@shaw.ca wrote:
| Quote: | On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 20:00:39 -0600, "Raymond S. Wise"
mplsrayNOSPAM@gbronline.com> wrote:
"Areff" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:32rm5tF3q1uvbU1@individual.net...
rbaniste1@shaw.ca wrote:
Someone sent me a Saturday Humour e-mail which played on a little
boy's impression of his grandparents. They were retards; had to use
golfcarts to get around their Retard Home and the gatekeeper would
not let them take the carts out.
Is that CINC?
No, that sounds more like Southern/South Midland. We know from the
examples of Coop and, perhaps, Ray Wise, that South Midland
dialects can be CIC, or nearly so. I wouldn't be too surprised to
learn that Coop gets "tard" prior to his going to sleep.
My "tire" is distinct from my "tar," so whatever it is in my speech
that leads some Easterners and Upper-Midwesterners to believe that I
have a Southern accent, it's unlikely to involve my pronunciation of
"tire."
What I don't get is what possible connection rbaniste1@shaw.ca saw
in a CINC accent and the "tire" = "tar" accent. The /a/ involved in
the diphthong in "tire"--/aI/, or the "long 'i'"--plays no part in
the distinguishing of CIC accents from CINC accents.
I cannot speak for any majority, but far from finding RF 'annoying' I
find him jolly good fun. This stuff's like dangling a ball of wool
over a kitten, you know; results can be hilarious.
|
I'm afraid that some people are going to look at your "far from finding RF
'annoying'" and conclude that I said at some point that he was annoying.
Just for the record, I haven't said any such thing.
| Quote: |
I suppose that, as a Yank, your 'tire' is never 'toire' and I
congratulate you on that at least. The BBC demotic seems to be
contained to the nether regions of the UK, though it appears to be
spreading northward.
|
By the way, I remembered something I had read about a person from Southern
Illinois--or "Egypt"--whose "tire" is pronounced like his "tar." H. Allen
Smith, who was born in Southern Illinois, told about his father, who cut his
own children's hair, complaining that his (H. Allen Smith's) hair was "hard
as warr."
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:57 am
Post subject: Re: About the sound [&] |
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FB wrote:
| Quote: | On 18 Dec 2004 21:18:53 GMT, Areff wrote:
[...]
Oh, but anyway one difference between much BrE and most AmE is that only a
few dialects of AmE have that class of historical cat-vowel words that now
get the father vowel (e.g. "can't").
[...]
Yesterday I found out (on the bbc4 website) that Patricia Highsmith, who, I
understand, was born in Fort Worth, Texas, and grew up in New York, said
[a:sk]. I was surprised, because it sounded so strange to me for an
American.
|
It's certainly abnormal for any New York speaker, and, I'd wager, any Fort
Worth speaker. However, I've heard old-time Bostonians, including
non-highfalutin ones, use the 'father' vowel in "ask".
A New York speaker who uses "ah" in "ask" would be the same sort that uses
"ah" in "aunt" and "vase". |
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