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FB
Guest
Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:16 am    Post subject: Re: Gotten Reply with quote
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:07:02 +0000, John Hall wrote:

Quote:
In article <1ctb63woq83ci.bcwfw148ux0g.dlg@40tude.net>,
FB <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> writes:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:40:10 +0000, Matthew Huntbach wrote:

[...]
In all cases where USA English would use "gotten", the correct
British English form is "got".
[...]

I don't think one can always just replace "gotten" with "got" and preserve
the original meaning. Consider "We've gotten a great many letters today".
Would you "translate" it as "We've got a great many letters today?".

Yes, that would be quite normal in British English, where "got" can be a
synonym for "received", though admittedly not very elegant.

Really? I didn't know. I thought you said "we've had a great many letters
today", for example, and rarely used "have got" as a present perfect.


Bye, FB
--
Locked from the inside. That can only mean one thing, and I don't know what
it is.
(Murder by Death)

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FB
Guest
Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:22 am    Post subject: Re: Gotten Reply with quote
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:43:06 +0000, Matthew Huntbach wrote:

Quote:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004, FB wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:40:10 +0000, Matthew Huntbach wrote:

In all cases where USA English would use "gotten", the correct British
English form is "got".

I don't think one can always just replace "gotten" with "got" and preserve
the original meaning. Consider "We've gotten a great many letters today".
Would you "translate" it as "We've got a great many letters today?".

Since "gotten" is not part of my language how am I supposed to know?
However, "We've got a great many letters today" is perfectly correct
British English.

I now know it is, but my point was that you can't always replace "gotten"
with "got". Consider, now, "I've never gotten to talk to him". Would you
translate it just replacing "gotten" with "got"? I was once told by an
English friend of mine that "I've never got to..." is usually interpreted
as "I never have to", so a British English speaker would probably say "I've
never had the chance/occasion to...". I hope I've got this right, at least.
(smiling face)


Bye, FB
--
"While I'm here, might I make a few changes? I adore my bedroom, but do you
think I could have my curtains washed? I believe they're red, but I should
like to make sure."
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film)
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FB
Guest
Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: Gotten Reply with quote
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:22:46 GMT, FB wrote:

Quote:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:43:06 +0000, Matthew Huntbach wrote:

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004, FB wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:40:10 +0000, Matthew Huntbach wrote:

In all cases where USA English would use "gotten", the correct British
English form is "got".

I don't think one can always just replace "gotten" with "got" and preserve
the original meaning. Consider "We've gotten a great many letters today".
Would you "translate" it as "We've got a great many letters today?".

Since "gotten" is not part of my language how am I supposed to know?
However, "We've got a great many letters today" is perfectly correct
British English.

I now know it is, but my point was that you can't always replace "gotten"
with "got". Consider, now, "I've never gotten to talk to him". Would you
translate it just replacing "gotten" with "got"? I was once told by an
English friend of mine that "I've never got to..." is usually interpreted
as "I never have to", so a British English speaker would probably say "I've
never had the chance/occasion to...".
[...]


Or "I never got to talk to him".


Bye, FB
--
Mrs. Palmer, in her way, was equally angry. 'She was determined to drop his
acquaintance immediately, and she was very thankful that she had never been
acquainted with him at all'. (Jane Austen)

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Peter Duncanson
Guest
Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:40 am    Post subject: Re: Gotten Reply with quote
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:22:46 GMT, FB <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote:

Quote:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 09:43:06 +0000, Matthew Huntbach wrote:

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004, FB wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:40:10 +0000, Matthew Huntbach wrote:

In all cases where USA English would use "gotten", the correct British
English form is "got".

I don't think one can always just replace "gotten" with "got" and preserve
the original meaning. Consider "We've gotten a great many letters today".
Would you "translate" it as "We've got a great many letters today?".

Since "gotten" is not part of my language how am I supposed to know?
However, "We've got a great many letters today" is perfectly correct
British English.

I now know it is, but my point was that you can't always replace "gotten"
with "got". Consider, now, "I've never gotten to talk to him". Would you
translate it just replacing "gotten" with "got"? I was once told by an
English friend of mine that "I've never got to..." is usually interpreted
as "I never have to", so a British English speaker would probably say "I've
never had the chance/occasion to...". I hope I've got this right, at least.
(smiling face)

In BrE "I've never had the chance/occasion [1] to speak to him" could be "I

never got to speak to him".

The corresponding question might be "Did you get an chance/occasion to speak
to him?" or "Did you get to speak to him?".

[1] "opportunity" might be more common than "occasion".

--
Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e)
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Fred
Guest
Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Gotten Reply with quote
"Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:I986F8.6u2@clerew.man.ac.uk...
Quote:
In <+LjyyQE2qoyBFwo3@jhall.demon.co.uk> John Hall
nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk> writes:

In article <1ctb63woq83ci.bcwfw148ux0g.dlg@40tude.net>,
FB <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> writes:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:40:10 +0000, Matthew Huntbach wrote:

[...]
In all cases where USA English would use "gotten", the correct
British English form is "got".
[...]

I don't think one can always just replace "gotten" with "got" and
preserve
the original meaning. Consider "We've gotten a great many letters
today".
Would you "translate" it as "We've got a great many letters today?".

Yes, that would be quite normal in British English, where "got" can be a
synonym for "received", though admittedly not very elegant.

No, I think I would have translated it as "We got a great many letters
today".


But surely that's a different tense - imperfect vs perfect?
After all you could equally say: "We got a great many letters yesterday".

But I agree that you can't replace "gotten" with "got" and preserve the
meaning.
I think a better translation would be: "We've had a great many letters
today".

Fred
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Charles Lindsey
Guest
Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Gotten Reply with quote
In <+LjyyQE2qoyBFwo3@jhall.demon.co.uk> John Hall <nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk> writes:

Quote:
In article <1ctb63woq83ci.bcwfw148ux0g.dlg@40tude.net>,
FB <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> writes:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:40:10 +0000, Matthew Huntbach wrote:

[...]
In all cases where USA English would use "gotten", the correct
British English form is "got".
[...]

I don't think one can always just replace "gotten" with "got" and preserve
the original meaning. Consider "We've gotten a great many letters today".
Would you "translate" it as "We've got a great many letters today?".

Yes, that would be quite normal in British English, where "got" can be a
synonym for "received", though admittedly not very elegant.

No, I think I would have translated it as "We got a great many letters today".

Otherwise, what is the diufference between
"We've got a great many letters today"
and
"We've got a great many letters in our rubbish bin"?
or between
"We've got a great many letters in our letter box"
and
"We got a great many letters in our letter box"?

--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5
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FB
Guest
Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Gotten Reply with quote
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 13:28:53 +0000 (UTC), Fred wrote:

Quote:
"Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:I986F8.6u2@clerew.man.ac.uk...
In <+LjyyQE2qoyBFwo3@jhall.demon.co.uk> John Hall
nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk> writes:

In article <1ctb63woq83ci.bcwfw148ux0g.dlg@40tude.net>,
FB <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> writes:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:40:10 +0000, Matthew Huntbach wrote:

[...]
In all cases where USA English would use "gotten", the correct
British English form is "got".
[...]

I don't think one can always just replace "gotten" with "got" and
preserve
the original meaning. Consider "We've gotten a great many letters
today".
Would you "translate" it as "We've got a great many letters today?".

Yes, that would be quite normal in British English, where "got" can be a
synonym for "received", though admittedly not very elegant.

No, I think I would have translated it as "We got a great many letters
today".

I can't read Charles's message, so I'll answer here.

Yes, I, too, would probably say "We got a great many letters today", for
though one says "today", one usually means "when the postman came".


Bye, FB
--
"The doctors found out that Bunbury could not live, that is what I meanˇXso
Bunbury died."
"He seems to have had great confidence in the opinion of his physicians."
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde)
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David
Guest
Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:25 am    Post subject: Re: Gotten Reply with quote
In article <20041223.2357.58890snz@dsl.co.uk>, Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
<bhk@dsl.co.uk> wrote:
Quote:
On Thursday, in article <1ctb63woq83ci.bcwfw148ux0g.dlg@40tude.net
fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it "FB" wrote:

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:40:10 +0000, Matthew Huntbach wrote:

[...]
In all cases where USA English would use "gotten", the correct
British
English form is "got". [...]

I don't think one can always just replace "gotten" with "got" and
preserve the original meaning. Consider "We've gotten a great many
letters today". Would you "translate" it as "We've got a great many
letters today?".

As others have said, yes. Although only the lazy[1] would use the
verb "got" at all; proper English would expect "We've received a
lot[2] of letters today".

[1] This would include those speaking "Basic English", with its 4,000
(?) word vocabulary.
[2] Some purists might claim to eschew "a lot";
however, "a great many" sounds more stilted (far more stilted than
"received" instead of "got").

Surely "a great lot" maps to "many" rather than "a great many".

Anyway, no true Englishman would ever say "a great lot"; he might say
"rather a lot".


--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ada/0b-0.htm
...beneath the Masonic pyramid is the legend NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM...
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FB
Guest
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:15 am    Post subject: Re: Gotten Reply with quote
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:57:51 +0000 (GMT), Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:


[...]
Quote:
As others have said, yes. Although only the lazy[1] would use the verb
"got" at all; proper English would expect "We've received a lot[2] of
letters today".
[...]


"We've had lots of/many letters today"? Is it better than "we've got"?


Bye, FB
--
"I saw something nasty in the woodshed!"
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film)
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John Hall
Guest
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:20 am    Post subject: Re: Gotten Reply with quote
In article <1p5ojhkf3gg5s$.1rp5g9eh6z7j4.dlg@40tude.net>,
FB <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> writes:
Quote:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:57:51 +0000 (GMT), Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:


[...]
As others have said, yes. Although only the lazy[1] would use the verb
"got" at all; proper English would expect "We've received a lot[2] of
letters today".
[...]

"We've had lots of/many letters today"? Is it better than "we've got"?

Yes.
--
John Hall
"One half of the world cannot understand
the pleasures of the other."
From "Emma" by Jane Austen (1775-1817)
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David
Guest
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:32 am    Post subject: Re: Gotten Reply with quote
In article <2XtwVzNV6G0BFw4R@jhall.demon.co.uk>, John Hall
<nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
Quote:
In article <1p5ojhkf3gg5s$.1rp5g9eh6z7j4.dlg@40tude.net>, FB
fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> writes:
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 23:57:51 +0000 (GMT), Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
wrote:


[...]
As others have said, yes. Although only the lazy[1] would use the
verb "got" at all; proper English would expect "We've received a
lot[2] of letters today".
[...]

"We've had lots of/many letters today"? Is it better than "we've
got"?

Yes.

Depends on the situation.

Underling enters room bearing armfuls of correspondence and says:
"We've got lots of letters today."

Partner settles down with his brandy at the Club and says: "We've had
lots of letters today."


--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/yds/8bt-0.htm
The Yorkshire Dialect Society: Booklets
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David
Guest
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:33 am    Post subject: Re: Gotten Reply with quote
In article <1104187211.103949.288760@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
<vorotyntsev@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
I really don't understand this prejudice against "got." It's a
perfectly good word.

Surely you mean: "I really don't get this prejudice..."


--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/quiz/30-0.htm
How many hairs grow in a dog's tail?
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Guest
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:40 am    Post subject: Re: Gotten Reply with quote
I really don't understand this prejudice against "got." It's a
perfectly good word.
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FB
Guest
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Gotten Reply with quote
On 27 Dec 2004 14:40:11 -0800, vorotyntsev@yahoo.com wrote:

Quote:
I really don't understand this prejudice against "got." It's a
perfectly good word.

In Italy we, too, have this prejudice against general-purpose verbs.


Bye, FB
--
"Is this Miss Prism a female of repellent aspect, remotely connected with
education?" "She is the most cultivated of ladies, and the very picture of
respectability" "It is obviously the same person".
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde)
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Gotten Reply with quote
On 27 Dec, in article
<1104187211.103949.288760@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>
vorotyntsev@yahoo.com wrote:

Quote:
I really don't understand this prejudice against "got." It's a
perfectly good word.

That's because (guessing, and based purely upon your posting mailbox)
you're not a native speaker of proper English. "Got" is one of the words
that well-educated speakers of British English eschew because it's, in
the terminology of programmers, "overloaded". Somebody with a vocabulary
of more than the few thousand words of "Basic English" ought readily to
find a more apposite replacement for "got" in any particular context.

Similarly, there's a prejudice against "nice"; although most of the
historical reason therefore has been forgotten. (Try listening to "The
Prime of Miss Jean Brodie".)

--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu
le loisir de la faire plus courte."
Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657
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