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LB
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:06 pm
Post subject: Reediting my post (up!) |
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Hi,
I would like to know if these sentences (from a poem translated into
English) are syntactically and grammatically right (if not, it may be
deliberate) or a little bit odd:
1- Life's years do not last a century
2- Man ever nurses worries of one thousand years.
.................................
3- Make merry we must while there's time
4- Can wait for next year?
Please, what would be a more "correct" (better usage) for these sentences if
they are really odd ? for example: "can YOU wait for next year ?" would be,
I suppose, more fluent (do not care about "poetry", since it's not a poetic
translation, but just about the right, normal usage, grammar and syntax).
Thank you ! Mordicus (from France)
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bogus address
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:02 am
Post subject: Re: Reediting my post (up!) |
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| Quote: | I would like to know if these sentences (from a poem translated into
English) are syntactically and grammatically right (if not, it may be
deliberate) or a little bit odd:
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They're all odd.
| Quote: | 1- Life's years do not last a century
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You'd expect either "the years of life do not..." or "life's years
don't..." You're mixing two different kinds of tone.
| Quote: | 2- Man ever nurses worries of one thousand years.
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"ever" used like that is archaic, you only expect to read it in hymns.
| Quote: | 3- Make merry we must while there's time
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Mixing tone as in 1. If you're going to use one inversion (i.e. you've
already given up on sounding like idiomatic colloquial speech) why not
use two, "...time there is"? It flows better rhythmically.
| Quote: | 4- Can wait for next year?
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Incomprehensible in isolation. It only makes sense if the implicit
subject is supplied by the context and that context is one where
subject deletion is ok, as in a list of things to do: "Fix locks:
tomorrow. Replace tiles: should be done next week. Redo plaster:
can wait for next year".
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Mordicus
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:08 am
Post subject: Re: Reediting my post (up!) |
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Thank you very very much Bogus !!!
I did not expected so many comments... it's very kind from you!
Well, reading your post, you seem to believe I wrote those lines myself... I
did not, it is a translation from Chinese done by an American woman.
Your opinion is very interesting for me, because I had the strong feeling
this English translation was clumsy... Since my English is very limited, I
need to know the point of view of English natives. My own feeling is that
the translator may consider
her clumsy style as a good flavour for a translation from Chinese (that's
why I've written: if they are not syntactically and grammatically right, it
may be deliberate).
I have posted my question on another forum where a Canadian user gave me a
very different opinion. For him, poetic diction has almost no rules and
there are only a few commun inversions in these lines, nothing very odd,
excepted for the last line ("Can wait for next year?"). So your opinion has
a great value for me. I especially appreciate the different kinds of tone
you pointed out, because I could not see them.
If you have time to answer, I would to ask you further details:
| Quote: | They're all odd.
Glad to hear it, but I could not feel them as odd as you did. |
| Quote: | 1- Life's years do not last a century
You'd expect either "the years of life do not..." or "life's years
don't..." You're mixing two different kinds of tone.
Which one is the colloquial ? "life's years don't...", right ? In this case, |
if the translator would have written: "the years of life do not last a
century" ? Would it be conventional/spoken English, or
classical/sustained/literary ?
| Quote: | 2- Man ever nurses worries of one thousand years.
"ever" used like that is archaic, you only expect to read it in hymns.
a) Then, which word could replace "ever" to avoid archaism ? "never" ? |
b) If I say : "I doubt if I'll ever come back" - "ever" is no archaic,
right ? So you mean "ever" appear to be archaic in this context ?
| Quote: | 3- Make merry we must while there's time
Mixing tone as in 1. If you're going to use one inversion (i.e. you've
already given up on sounding like idiomatic colloquial speech) why not
use two, "...time there is"? It flows better rhythmically.
Sorry I don't see where is the "mixing". Could you show me ? Following |
another discussion, I concluded that "We must make merry while there's time"
would be the most natural/convetionnal syntax for this line. Are you agree ?
| Quote: | 4- Can wait for next year?
Incomprehensible in isolation. It only makes sense if the implicit
subject is supplied by the context and that context is one where
subject deletion is ok, as in a list of things to do: "Fix locks:
tomorrow. Replace tiles: should be done next week. Redo plaster:
can wait for next year".
Thank you for this example, it's very clear. |
Anyway, after reading your post, I realize this translation is worse than I
imagined (for its style and its English). For your curiosity, here is the
full translation. The last two lines, I guess, are probably the most
ponderous:
Life's years do not last a century,
Man ever nurses worries of one thousand years.
Morning is short alas! night is long,
Why not hold a candle and have fun?
Make merry we must while there's time!
Can wait for next year?
The fool who begrudges spending
Will just make posterity laugh out loud!
The immortal Wang Tzu-Ch'iao,
It's hard to expect to equal him.
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Molly Mockford
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Reediting my post (up!) |
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At 03:29:31 on Thu, 9 Dec 2004, Mordicus <mordicus@anonymous.com> wrote
in <41b7b8a8$0$3434$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>:
| Quote: | 2- Man ever nurses worries of one thousand years.
"ever" used like that is archaic, you only expect to read it in hymns.
a) Then, which word could replace "ever" to avoid archaism ? "never" ?
b) If I say : "I doubt if I'll ever come back" - "ever" is no archaic,
right ? So you mean "ever" appear to be archaic in this context ?
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"Ever", in this sense, has the meaning of "always". It is
old-fashioned, but can be used in a poetic sense, where archaic words
and language are sometimes still found. (Dare I say, especially when
the poetess is American?!)
| Quote: | 3- Make merry we must while there's time
Mixing tone as in 1. If you're going to use one inversion (i.e. you've
already given up on sounding like idiomatic colloquial speech) why not
use two, "...time there is"? It flows better rhythmically.
Sorry I don't see where is the "mixing". Could you show me ? Following
another discussion, I concluded that "We must make merry while there's time"
would be the most natural/convetionnal syntax for this line. Are you agree ?
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If I were to render that line "poetically" I would make a further
transposition, and say "Make merry must we while there's time". This is
"poetic English". "Standard English" would indeed say "We must make
merry while there's time".
| Quote: | Anyway, after reading your post, I realize this translation is worse than I
imagined (for its style and its English). For your curiosity, here is the
full translation. The last two lines, I guess, are probably the most
ponderous:
|
It is, indeed, extremely bad. Almost Vogon. I wonder to what extent
the author really understood Chinese? There are so many words which are
used in English which do not exist in Chinese (I say that on the basis
of having spent one term only learning a little spoken Mandarin!) that
translation between the two languages must involve adding quite a lot in
order to make sense in English.
| Quote: | Life's years do not last a century,
Man ever nurses worries of one thousand years.
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Although life lasts for less than a hundred years
People always nurse worries which last for a thousand.
| Quote: | Morning is short alas! night is long,
Why not hold a candle and have fun?
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That bit's not too bad. (Depends what they're planning to do with the
candle, but I assume it is for the purposes of illumination only.)
| Quote: | Make merry we must while there's time!
Can wait for next year?
|
I suspect the line would be better rendered as "Who can wait for next
year?"
| Quote: | The fool who begrudges spending
Will just make posterity laugh out loud!
The immortal Wang Tzu-Ch'iao,
It's hard to expect to equal him.
|
I suspect that "hard" is rather too mild a word, and "impossible" would
be more appropriate in the context - but I know nothing about Wang
Tzu-Ch'iao except that he is clearly highly regarded ("immortal"). If
he was a poet, he certainly hasn't been equalled here!
--
Molly Mockford
I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that
lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be!
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Reediting my post (up!) |
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On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 08:30:16 +0000, Molly Mockford
<nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | At 03:29:31 on Thu, 9 Dec 2004, Mordicus <mordicus@anonymous.com> wrote
in <41b7b8a8$0$3434$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>:
Morning is short alas! night is long,
Why not hold a candle and have fun?
That bit's not too bad. (Depends what they're planning to do with the
candle, but I assume it is for the purposes of illumination only.)
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All the nice girls love a candle...
--
Phil C. |
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LB
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:09 am
Post subject: Re: Reediting my post (up!) |
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Thank you Molly !
| Quote: | "Ever", in this sense, has the meaning of "always". It is old-fashioned,
but can be used in a poetic sense, where archaic words and language are
sometimes still found. (Dare I say, especially when the poetess is
American?!)
OK ! |
| Quote: | If I were to render that line "poetically" I would make a further
transposition, and say "Make merry must we while there's time". This is
"poetic English". "Standard English" would indeed say "We must make merry
while there's time".
Ok! |
| Quote: | It is, indeed, extremely bad. Almost Vogon.
"Vogon" ? I didn't know this word... Wikipedia definition: "Vogon poetry is |
of course, the third worst in the universe"... It comes from Science-Fiction
?
| Quote: | I wonder to what extent the author really understood Chinese?
Alas! she does! (she is a sinologist rather than a poetess) |
There are so many words which are
| Quote: | used in English which do not exist in Chinese
Please which words ? |
| Quote: | (I say that on the basis of having spent one term only learning a little
spoken Mandarin!) that translation between the two languages must involve
adding quite a lot in order to make sense in English.
The problem of translation from Chinese is that most translators only see |
words and not what is BEHIND the words... since Chinese poetry is very
allusive and suggestive, result is often disastrous. Words are really easy
to translate (Mountains, river, a boat, moon, etc.). But the words won't let
you understand the poem, because their cultural and allusive value disapear
immediately in the word-to-word translation.
| Quote: | Life's years do not last a century,
Man ever nurses worries of one thousand years.
Yours is:
Although life lasts for less than a hundred years
People always nurse worries which last for a thousand.
Is this "standard English" or a "poetic" version ? |
"Morning is short alas! night is long,"
"Why not hold a candle and have fun?"
| Quote: | That bit's not too bad. (Depends what they're planning to do with the
candle, but I assume it is for the purposes of illumination only.)
There is another meaning (but it is very suggestive in the Chinese verse): |
Light a candle to extend the day ! (because, "day is short alas! night is
(too) long")
The "and have fun" may be translated too literally (I believe it is quite
colloquial in English, no ?)
(narrator is the poet)
| Quote: | Make merry we must while there's time!
Can wait for next year?
I suspect the line would be better rendered as "Who can wait for next
year?"
Original meaning: "How can I wait until "next time/year" ? "next time" = |
next time to make merry (Poet wants to say he cannot wait more longer = men
must not wait longer, since life is short)
| Quote: | It's hard to expect to equal him.
I suspect that "hard" is rather too mild a word and "impossible" would be
more appropriate in the context
Ok, I take note of your remark ! |
| Quote: | but I know nothing about Wang Tzu-Ch'iao except that he is clearly highly
regarded ("immortal"). If he was a poet, he certainly hasn't been
equalled here!
Ah-ah! yes! (He was a very talented musician from an old story... has met a |
taoist, followed him... then, one day, someone saw him getting on a crane
and flying away. He disapeared forever)
Since many people answered my post, next time I will try to post another
translation for the same poem made by a scottish missionary ... for fun...
it is completely different, and a very very nice one. |
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LB
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:10 am
Post subject: Re: Reediting my post (up!) |
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Depends what they're planning to do with the
| Quote: | candle, but I assume it is for the purposes of illumination only.)
All the nice girls love a candle...
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Ah-ah ! Good remark.... so r-o-m-a-n-t-i-c, right ?
(However here it is not a girl!)
:-) |
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John Hall
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Reediting my post (up!) |
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In article <41b8e504$0$30102$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>,
LB <anonymous@spamafraid.com> writes:
| Quote: |
It is, indeed, extremely bad. Almost Vogon.
"Vogon" ? I didn't know this word... Wikipedia definition: "Vogon poetry is
of course, the third worst in the universe"... It comes from Science-Fiction
?
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Yes, from Douglas Adams' "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy".
--
John Hall
You can divide people into two categories:
those who divide people into two categories and those who don't |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Reediting my post (up!) |
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On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 00:55:39 +0100, "LB" <anonymous@spamafraid.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | Depends what they're planning to do with the
candle, but I assume it is for the purposes of illumination only.)
All the nice girls love a candle...
Ah-ah ! Good remark.... so r-o-m-a-n-t-i-c, right ?
(However here it is not a girl!)
:-)
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It's the first line of a deeply offensive version of a popular song -
"All the Nice Girls Love a Sailor". I won't tell you the words as this
is a family newsgroup.
--
Phil C. |
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John Mazor
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:37 am
Post subject: Re: Reediting my post (up!) |
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"Phil C." <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> wrote in message
news:al4jr0h03aqv1ja5jm9949622bgl44e7vg@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 00:55:39 +0100, "LB" <anonymous@spamafraid.com
wrote:
Depends what they're planning to do with the
candle, but I assume it is for the purposes of illumination only.)
All the nice girls love a candle...
Ah-ah ! Good remark.... so r-o-m-a-n-t-i-c, right ?
(However here it is not a girl!)
:-)
It's the first line of a deeply offensive version of a popular song -
"All the Nice Girls Love a Sailor". I won't tell you the words as this
is a family newsgroup.
|
Which reminds me of the WW2 song, "You Can't Say No to a Soldier." The
lyrics weren't explicit, but the message was clear. |
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