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Paul Wary
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:36 am
Post subject: Is that slang or casual language? |
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Hi,
I have some questions as to whether you would consider the
pronunciations below just casual language or already slang.
1) T + Y = CH
Can't you do it? [Canchoo do it?]
Don't you like it? [Donchoo like it?]
Aren't you ...? [Arnchoo ...?]
Got you. [Gotcha.]
2) Omitting certain letters/words or other word reductions
Get them = Get 'em.
Let me know as soon as possible. = Lemme know as soon as possible.
Give me that. = Gimme that.
How do you know? = How d'you know?
I don't know. = I dunno.
How's it going? = How's it goin'?
I'm going to ... = I'm gonna ...
I want to ... = I wanna ...
salt and pepper = salt 'n' pepper
Let's get out of here. = Let's get outta here.
Did you eat? = Jeet?
No, did you? = No, joo?
3) Pronouncing you [yoo] as [ya]
Example: Would you [ya] do that for me?
Can you tell me whether you think the pronunciations above are just
casual language or already slang? When would you consider them
appropriate and when not?
Regards,
Paul
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Don Phillipson
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:38 am
Post subject: Re: Is that slang or casual language? |
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"Paul Wary" <paul_wary@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c4879cbb.0410141136.43ae33ae@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | I have some questions as to whether you would consider the
pronunciations below just casual language or already slang.
1) T + Y = CH
Can't you do it? [Canchoo do it?]
Don't you like it? [Donchoo like it?]
Aren't you ...? [Arnchoo ...?]
Got you. [Gotcha.]
|
1. Everyone nowadays distinguishes between
written English and spoken English. This is not
just because pronunciation varies but some
details of acceptable grammar vary as well.
2. If you need a word to describe attempts to
transcribe speech so as to suggest how it
sounds, "vernacular" may fit the task. It is
not slang and "casual language" is not a
generally-recognized category. After all,
vernacular is merely a fancy label for
spoken.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada) |
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joetaxpayer@nospam.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:47 am
Post subject: Re: Is that slang or casual language? |
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Paul Wary wrote:
| Quote: | Hi,
I have some questions as to whether you would consider the
pronunciations below just casual language or already slang.
1) T + Y = CH
Can't you do it? [Canchoo do it?]
Don't you like it? [Donchoo like it?]
Aren't you ...? [Arnchoo ...?]
Got you. [Gotcha.]
2) Omitting certain letters/words or other word reductions
Get them = Get 'em.
Let me know as soon as possible. = Lemme know as soon as possible.
Give me that. = Gimme that.
How do you know? = How d'you know?
I don't know. = I dunno.
How's it going? = How's it goin'?
I'm going to ... = I'm gonna ...
I want to ... = I wanna ...
salt and pepper = salt 'n' pepper
Let's get out of here. = Let's get outta here.
Did you eat? = Jeet?
No, did you? = No, joo?
3) Pronouncing you [yoo] as [ya]
Example: Would you [ya] do that for me?
Can you tell me whether you think the pronunciations above are just
casual language or already slang? When would you consider them
appropriate and when not?
Regards,
Paul
|
I'd call it lazy. I think that 'gonna' is common, but won't and
shouldn't make it to the printed language. All of the examples above are
a reminder of my childhood, when by 10 or so I realized that the speech
affectation above wouldn't cut it in school and the proper english
taught in school wouldn't work in the neighborhood.
From Woody Allen's 'Annie Hall';
You know, I was having lunch with some guys from NBC, so I said...uh,
"Did you eat yet or what?" and Tom Christie said, "No, didchoo?" Not,
did you, didchoo eat? Jew? No, not did you eat, but jew est? Jew. You
get it? Jew eat?
JOE
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:49 am
Post subject: Re: Is that slang or casual language? |
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In alt.english.usage on 14 Oct 2004 12:36:41 -0700 paul_wary@yahoo.com
(Paul Wary) posted:
| Quote: | Hi,
I have some questions as to whether you would consider the
pronunciations below just casual language or already slang.
|
I would call them, in 1, 2, and 3, casual pronunciations. I consider
the language used to be the same as what you have first on each line,
only the pronunciation to be different.
| Quote: | 1) T + Y = CH
Can't you do it? [Canchoo do it?]
Don't you like it? [Donchoo like it?]
Aren't you ...? [Arnchoo ...?]
Got you. [Gotcha.]
|
This one only is casual pronunciation, and probably slang now.
Because "gotcha" is used as a word in its own right. Can't think of
good examples, but maybe "It was a gotcha moment" or "He likes to do
gotchas.".
| Quote: | 2) Omitting certain letters/words or other word reductions
Get them = Get 'em.
Let me know as soon as possible. = Lemme know as soon as possible.
Give me that. = Gimme that.
How do you know? = How d'you know?
I don't know. = I dunno.
How's it going? = How's it goin'?
I'm going to ... = I'm gonna ...
I want to ... = I wanna ...
salt and pepper = salt 'n' pepper
Let's get out of here. = Let's get outta here.
Did you eat? = Jeet?
No, did you? = No, joo?
3) Pronouncing you [yoo] as [ya]
Example: Would you [ya] do that for me?
|
I wouldn't call people lazy for talking like this, because in the vast
majority of America, that's the way the vast majority talk. If one
talked much more distinctly, we'd think the guy was English or went to
prep school. (This is not to say those two groups consistently talk
distinctly. I have no idea.)
| Quote: | Can you tell me whether you think the pronunciations above are just
casual language or already slang? When would you consider them
appropriate and when not?
|
Clear, distinct pronunciation is appropriate in court or for any
formal talk. Casual is appropriate among friends of if you are a rich
man running for office and want to sucker middle class folk into
voting for you.
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
now in Baltimore 20 years |
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Carmen L. Abruzzi
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Is that slang or casual language? |
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Paul Wary wrote:
| Quote: | Hi,
I have some questions as to whether you would consider the
pronunciations below just casual language or already slang.
1) T + Y = CH
Can't you do it? [Canchoo do it?]
Don't you like it? [Donchoo like it?]
Aren't you ...? [Arnchoo ...?]
Got you. [Gotcha.]
|
This is sandhi, very prestigious in Sanskrit (whence comes
the name for it), but rather disparaged in English.
Nevertheless, it's extremely usual. Sandhi is the combining
of sounds at word boundaries so that the ending sound of one
word is combined with the beginning sound of the following
word to form a single new sound. In Sanskrit it is
obligatory, in English it is optional, though usual,
especially in casual speech.
| Quote: |
2) Omitting certain letters/words or other word reductions
Get them = Get 'em.
|
This is a survival of the Old English word for "them", which
was "hem". The /h/ is dropped, as is usual for unstressed
words beginning with /h/.
| Quote: | Let me know as soon as possible. = Lemme know as soon as possible.
Give me that. = Gimme that.
How do you know? = How d'you know?
|
This is "how'd you know" and is simply a contraction like
"didn't", etc. <Howdja know>, on the other hand, is sandhi
applied to the contraction <how'd you know>.
| Quote: | I don't know. = I dunno.
How's it going? = How's it goin'?
|
This is not the omission of a "letter" (really a sound,
there are no 'letters' in speech), but a different sound.
<ng> represents one single sound, not an /n/ plus a /g/, but
a sound different from either of these, symbolized by /N/.
In some dialects the /In/ (<in'>) version is more
prestigious than the /IN/ (<ing>) version.
| Quote: | I'm going to ... = I'm gonna ...
I want to ... = I wanna ...
salt and pepper = salt 'n' pepper
Let's get out of here. = Let's get outta here.
Did you eat? = Jeet?
No, did you? = No, joo?
|
These are all further examples of sandhi. The first
follows very strict rules according to the syntax of the
sentence. "I'm gonna" is always a sandhi of <going> with
the <to> marking a following infinitive. That is "I'm going
to see> can become <I'm gonna see>, but "I'm going to the
sea> cannot become <I'm gonna the sea>.
| Quote: |
3) Pronouncing you [yoo] as [ya]
Example: Would you [ya] do that for me?
|
Merely the reduction of an unstressed vowel to a schwa,
usual for English. It's only the fact that the word "you"
is stressed often enough that leads to the spelling "ya"
when it's unstressed. You don't find mandatory schwas that
are always unstressed spelled differently from the standard
spelling: "electricity" is never represented as
<alectrisaty>, "individual" doesn't become <indavidual>, and
so on.
| Quote: |
Can you tell me whether you think the pronunciations above are just
casual language or already slang?
|
None of these is slang. Slang is not in the same category
as casual language. Your question is like asking whether
these things are just red or already circular. Casual
language may incorporate slang, just as something that is
red may be circular, but there's no progression from being
red to being circular, just as there's no progression from
casual language to slang.
When would you consider them
| Quote: | appropriate and when not?
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That's hard to answer. |
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Paul Wary
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Is that slang or casual language? |
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Don Phillipson wrote:
| Quote: | "Paul Wary" <paul_wary@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c4879cbb.0410141136.43ae33ae@posting.google.com...
I have some questions as to whether you would consider the
pronunciations below just casual language or already slang.
...
1. Everyone nowadays distinguishes between
written English and spoken English.
|
I know. The examples I brought up are the ones where I wasn't sure
about what category to put them into. Of course, it would definitely
sound strange to pronounce each and every word in a spoken sentence
exactly the way the word is pronounced on its own.
| Quote: | This is not just because pronunciation varies but some
details of acceptable grammar vary as well.
|
Like for example "I'm doing good.".
| Quote: | 2. If you need a word to describe attempts to
transcribe speech so as to suggest how it
sounds, "vernacular" may fit the task. It is
not slang and "casual language" is not a
generally-recognized category. After all,
vernacular is merely a fancy label for
spoken.
|
OK. I didn't know that term, so in a lack of a better one I used
"casual language".
Paul |
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Paul Wary
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Is that slang or casual language? |
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meirman wrote:
| Quote: | I wouldn't call people lazy for talking like this, because in the vast
majority of America, that's the way the vast majority talk.
|
Ok, then I want to talk like this. I want to sound like the majority
of Americans, ...
| Quote: | If one talked much more distinctly, we'd think the guy was English or went to
prep school.
|
.... and NOT like that (s.a.).
| Quote: | Clear, distinct pronunciation is appropriate in court ...
|
Never been there and probably or hopefully will never be there.
| Quote: | ... or for any formal talk.
|
This is much more relevant to me because I do have to give formal
talks such as presentations about my scientific research I have been
doing.
| Quote: | Casual is appropriate among friends ...
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Ok.
| Quote: | ... or if you are a rich man running for office and want to
sucker middle class folk into voting for you.
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Good point. ;-)
Paul |
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Paul Wary
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Is that slang or casual language? |
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meirman wrote:
| Quote: | I wouldn't call people lazy for talking like this, because in the vast
majority of America, that's the way the vast majority talk.
|
Ok, then I want to talk like this. I want to sound like the majority
of Americans, ...
| Quote: | If one talked much more distinctly, we'd think the guy was English or went to
prep school.
|
.... and NOT like that (s.a.).
| Quote: | Clear, distinct pronunciation is appropriate in court ...
|
Never been there and probably or hopefully will never be there.
| Quote: | ... or for any formal talk.
|
This is much more relevant to me because I do have to give formal
talks such as presentations about my scientific research I have been
doing.
| Quote: | Casual is appropriate among friends ...
|
Ok.
| Quote: | ... or if you are a rich man running for office and want to
sucker middle class folk into voting for you.
|
Good point. ;-)
Paul |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Is that slang or casual language? |
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On 15 Oct 2004, Carmen L. Abruzzi wrote
-snip-
| Quote: | How do you know? = How d'you know?
This is "how'd you know" and is simply a contraction like
"didn't", etc.
|
Surely not: the contraction is of "do you", not of "how do".
The apostrophe marks the omission of the "o" in "do" -- not of some
unknown letter between "how" and "do" -- and it should thus be
transcribed as "how d'you".
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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Richard R. Hershberger
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Is that slang or casual language? |
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paul_wary@yahoo.com (Paul Wary) wrote in message news:<c4879cbb.0410141136.43ae33ae@posting.google.com>...
| Quote: | Hi,
I have some questions as to whether you would consider the
pronunciations below just casual language or already slang.
1) T + Y = CH
Can't you do it? [Canchoo do it?]
Don't you like it? [Donchoo like it?]
Aren't you ...? [Arnchoo ...?]
Got you. [Gotcha.]
2) Omitting certain letters/words or other word reductions
Get them = Get 'em.
Let me know as soon as possible. = Lemme know as soon as possible.
Give me that. = Gimme that.
How do you know? = How d'you know?
I don't know. = I dunno.
How's it going? = How's it goin'?
I'm going to ... = I'm gonna ...
I want to ... = I wanna ...
salt and pepper = salt 'n' pepper
Let's get out of here. = Let's get outta here.
Did you eat? = Jeet?
No, did you? = No, joo?
3) Pronouncing you [yoo] as [ya]
Example: Would you [ya] do that for me?
Can you tell me whether you think the pronunciations above are just
casual language or already slang? When would you consider them
appropriate and when not?
|
All three are perfectly standard. I can't attest that they occur in
all accents, but where they occur they are the usual forms in
non-self-conscious speech. |
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Odysseus
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:58 am
Post subject: Re: Is that slang or casual language? |
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Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
| Quote: |
On 15 Oct 2004, Carmen L. Abruzzi wrote
Paul Wary wrote:
-snip-
How do you know? = How d'you know?
This is "how'd you know" and is simply a contraction like
"didn't", etc.
Surely not: the contraction is of "do you", not of "how do".
The apostrophe marks the omission of the "o" in "do" -- not of some
unknown letter between "how" and "do" -- and it should thus be
transcribed as "how d'you".
|
I agree; "how'd" represents a contraction in which the beginning of
"would" or "did" has been elided -- cf. "how're", "how'll", & "how's".
--
Odysseus |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Is that slang or casual language? |
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Harvey Van Sickle <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<Xns95838F843F438whhvans@62.253.162.203>...
| Quote: | On 15 Oct 2004, Carmen L. Abruzzi wrote
Paul Wary wrote:
-snip-
How do you know? = How d'you know?
This is "how'd you know" and is simply a contraction like
"didn't", etc.
Surely not: the contraction is of "do you", not of "how do".
The apostrophe marks the omission of the "o" in "do" -- not of some
unknown letter between "how" and "do" -- and it should thus be
transcribed as "how d'you".
|
Hmm, OK. I failed to pay attention to the uncontracted "how do you
know", and took "how d'you know" as a contraction of "how did you
know".
I don't think I can get "how d'you know" from "how do you know"; the
latter becomes "howda you know" or "howdaya know", with the same
weakening of unstressed vowels to schwa as in the examples upthread,
but the vowel of "do" is never completely effaced. Complete lack of
any vowel between the /d/ (<d>) and the /j/ (<y>) of "you" makes me
understand it as a contraction of "did you", rather than "do you". |
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