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Odysseus
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Desmond takes a TROLLEY to the jeweler's store |
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Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
| Quote: | (The careful addition of "bus" to "trolley" was a pondial difference
which I noted when I moved here. Where I grew up -- Ottawa -- I think
we called our trolley buses "trolleys". Trams had disappeared by the
time I became of aware of such things, but of course if they *had*
existed, I'd have called them "street cars".)
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We still have trolleys on several routes here in Edmonton, and
Toronto still has a few street-cars.
--
Odysseus
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Desmond takes a TROLLEY to the jeweler's store |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:52:57 GMT, the renowned Odysseus
<odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote:
| Quote: | Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
[snip]
(The careful addition of "bus" to "trolley" was a pondial difference
which I noted when I moved here. Where I grew up -- Ottawa -- I think
we called our trolley buses "trolleys". Trams had disappeared by the
time I became of aware of such things, but of course if they *had*
existed, I'd have called them "street cars".)
We still have trolleys on several routes here in Edmonton, and
Toronto still has a few street-cars.
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There are about 250 streetcars in the TTC fleet. The last trolley bus
was retired more than a decade ago.
Streetcar:
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?31663
Trolley bus:
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/display.cfm?pic=trolleybus-9701-04.jpg
Leased Edmonton Trolley Bus in Toronto:
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/display.cfm?pic=trolleybus-9000-87.jpg
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Desmond takes a TROLLEY to the jeweler's store |
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On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:54:46 +0100, Robin Bignall
<docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 21:28:33 GMT, Harvey Van Sickle
harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
That must inevitably mean that someone born c.1940 in the north of
England, writing a song in the 1960s, was using "trolley" to mean some
sort of public transport.
That strikes me as very odd.
Nota tall, Harvey. Many northern towns had trolley buses in the 1940s.
Maybe the Beatles grew up with them, as I did.
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And not just northern towns. I remember riding in trolleybuses in
Potters Bar, just north of London, in the early 1950s. I don't
remember them ever being abbreviated to "trolleys" but I was very
young at the time. I'm ashamed to admit that although I live in Lincs
I'd never even head of the trolleybus museum until I just googled -
http://www.sandtoft.org.uk/
Trolleys/trollies is, of course, also slang for underpants though I
can't imagine that has any relevance to the song.
--
Phil C.
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Desmond takes a TROLLEY to the jeweler's store |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 03:45:18 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:52:57 GMT, the renowned Odysseus
odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote:
Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
[snip]
(The careful addition of "bus" to "trolley" was a pondial difference
which I noted when I moved here. Where I grew up -- Ottawa -- I think
we called our trolley buses "trolleys". Trams had disappeared by the
time I became of aware of such things, but of course if they *had*
existed, I'd have called them "street cars".)
We still have trolleys on several routes here in Edmonton, and
Toronto still has a few street-cars.
There are about 250 streetcars in the TTC fleet. The last trolley bus
was retired more than a decade ago.
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Bet there isn't much tread left on those trolley bus tires. |
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Martin Willett
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:21 am
Post subject: Re: Desmond takes a TROLLEY to the jeweler's store |
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Ralf Reddi wrote:
| Quote: | Hi!
Recently my son came home from school and told sth about the last
music lesson.
Subject had been 'Obladi Oblada' and the music teacher had been
convinced, that Desmond took a [shopping basket with wheels] to the
jeweler's store.
I'd rather believe, he used some vehicle of public transport like a
trolley bus or Straßenbahn, tramway.
[Is something known about the town, where Desmond and Molly live]
Ralf Reddi
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I don't think the song has enough substance to be deconstructed to
this degree.
Trolly as trolley bus seems to make sense.
--
Martin Willett
http://mwillett.org/ |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:02 am
Post subject: Re: Desmond takes a TROLLEY to the jeweler's store |
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John Dean wrote:
| Quote: | Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
On 13 Oct 2004, Robin Bignall wrote
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 21:28:33 GMT, Harvey Van Sickle
harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
On 13 Oct 2004, raymond o'hara wrote
"Harvey Van Sickle" <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9581DB630E555whhvans@194.168.222.124...
On 13 Oct 2004, Ralf Reddi wrote
Hi!
Recently my son came home from school and told sth about the
last music lesson.
Subject had been 'Obladi Oblada' and the music teacher had
been convinced, that Desmond took a [shopping basket with
wheels] to the jeweler's store.
I'd rather believe, he used some vehicle of public transport
like a trolley bus or Straßenbahn, tramway.
[Is something known about the town, where Desmond and Molly
live]
It's not town-specific; the teacher's right. I've not googled
for the lyrics, but "trolley" in BrEng usage generally means
"shopping trolley" -- that basket-on-wheels thingie that one
uses in a supermarket.
But it also means a sort of suitcase-on-wheels used (mainly) by
pensioners, which I suspect is the version that Desmond used.
There was a commercial brand of these known as a "Sholley"
(shopping + trolley) -- they may still be sold under that name.
The passenger-transport vehicle known as a "trolley" was -- and
in modern times, since they've been re-introduced, is -- known
here as a "tram", not a "trolley".
Unless one is very very rich it is rare to go shopping at the
jewelry store
with a shopping cart,
I think that's probably the point, innit?
I'd venture he took public transport to the
store.
That must inevitably mean that someone born c.1940 in the north
of England, writing a song in the 1960s, was using "trolley" to
mean some sort of public transport.
That strikes me as very odd.
Nota tall, Harvey. Many northern towns had trolley buses in the
1940s. Maybe the Beatles grew up with them, as I did.
However, the lyrics are:
"Desmond takes a trolly to the jewellers stores
Buys a twenty carat golden ring
Takes it back to Molly waiting at the door
And as he gives it to her she begins to sing.
http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/Beatles/Obladi-Oblada.html
That 'trolly' may be a typo, of course. But taking a shopping
trolley to a jeweller's store for a ring seems to be as silly a
joke as Desmond becoming a she in the final verse, so you could be
right.
"Happy ever after in the market place
Molly lets the children lend a hand
Desmond stays at home and does his pretty face
And in the evening she's a singer with the band."
Fairy nuff; surreal stuff, p'raps.
But I've only ever come across the unqualified "trolley" on this side
of t'ocean to mean "shopping trolley" -- I've heard "trolley bus",
but as far as I can recall that invariably included the "bus"
qualifier.
Was "trolley" generally used in England as a short form for "trolley
bus"? (I don't think I've ever come across it -- at least in
southern England -- since I moved here in the early 1980s, but both
trolley buses and trams had long been phased out by then.)
One version of 'trolley', of course, is a kind of barrow. So Desmond
might have been pushing his own barrow (which he daren't leave
unattended) and Paul wanted to use enriched vocabulary. Or it could
indeed have been a shopping trolley. Or it could have been a trolley
bus, though like most correspondents here, I don't recollect 'trolley'
as a standaloner for 'trolley bus'. Mind you, Paul always was a fan of
musicals and, like the rest of us, will have heard Judy on TV singing
'Clang clang clang went the trolley' often enough as a kid for the
iron to have entered his soul.
And anyway, the Beatles were fans of American culture and music long
before they ever got the chance to go there, so there's no reason to
dismiss the idea they might have thrown a little US vocab into their
song-writing. Doubly so after they'd actually been there.
But Liverpool was more of a tram city - 'No Trams to Lime Street'
being that city's tribute to 'A Streetcar named Desire'
|
I've just got round to checking my 'Beatles Complete' sheet music (pub
1983).
Point 1 - The lyrics are (assuming the transcription is correct)
'Desmond takes *a* trolley. FWIW
Point 2 - Verses 3 and 4 are identical - ie in each case Molly is
painting her face and is a singer with the band. That's not to say
people (including Paul) might have switched Desmond for Molly in v. 4
either in live performance or on record. But the first folio definitely
says Molly was the painter / singer.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:50 am
Post subject: Re: Desmond takes a TROLLEY to the jeweler's store |
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In alt.english.usage on Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:18:35 GMT Harvey Van
Sickle <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> posted:
| Quote: | On 13 Oct 2004, Peter Duncanson wrote
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:03:18 GMT, Harvey Van Sickle
harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Was "trolley" generally used in England as a short form for
"trolley bus"? (I don't think I've ever come across it -- at
least in southern England -- since I moved here in the early
1980s, but both trolley buses and trams had long been phased out
by then.)
In my experience in Manchester in 1959 - 1960s the vehicle was
always a "trolley bus".
For clarification: a trolley bus was a bus with an electric motor
that collected power from overhead wires. It had wheels and
steering like any other bus. It did not run on a track.
Yes, that's what I'm thinking of: if it ran on tracks, it was a tram.
(The careful addition of "bus" to "trolley" was a pondial difference
which I noted when I moved here. Where I grew up -- Ottawa -- I think
we called our trolley buses "trolleys". Trams had disappeared by the
time I became of aware of such things, but of course if they *had*
existed, I'd have called them "street cars".)
|
Well, I think in the US there were both trollies on tracks and on
rubber tires. But because of the song, trolley is most associated
with tracks. "Clang, clang, clang went the trolley..." Doesn't the
clang refer to some noise of the wheels against the tracks?
FTR, I think the trolley is primarily the wheel at the top that rides
under the wire, and later the word began to mean the whole vehicle.
It wouldn't be necessary to say trolley bus unless there was an
alternative to the bus.
And of course there is also the dog trolley, a device the runs on a
wire usually erected in the back yard, connected by a leash to the
dog. It enables him to run around most of the yard while still on a
leash. I guess it has the advantage that the leash is short enough
that he can't tie it in circles or knots around a tree????
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
now in Baltimore 20 years |
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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Desmond takes a TROLLEY to the jeweler's store |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:50:21 -0400, meirman <meirman@invalid.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Well, I think in the US there were both trollies on tracks and on
rubber tires. But because of the song, trolley is most associated
with tracks. "Clang, clang, clang went the trolley..." Doesn't the
clang refer to some noise of the wheels against the tracks?
|
I always assumed that the clang was from a bell sounded by the driver as a
warning.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u) |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Desmond takes a TROLLEY to the jeweler's store |
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:53:42 +0100, Peter Duncanson
<mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:50:21 -0400, meirman <meirman@invalid.com> wrote:
Well, I think in the US there were both trollies on tracks and on
rubber tires. But because of the song, trolley is most associated
with tracks. "Clang, clang, clang went the trolley..." Doesn't the
clang refer to some noise of the wheels against the tracks?
I always assumed that the clang was from a bell sounded by the driver as a
warning.
|
Can't be. The lines say "Ding, ding, ding went the bell" right after
the clang bit. Obviously, the ding and the clang come from different
things. |
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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 1:45 am
Post subject: Re: Desmond takes a TROLLEY to the jeweler's store |
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:59:30 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:53:42 +0100, Peter Duncanson
mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:50:21 -0400, meirman <meirman@invalid.com> wrote:
Well, I think in the US there were both trollies on tracks and on
rubber tires. But because of the song, trolley is most associated
with tracks. "Clang, clang, clang went the trolley..." Doesn't the
clang refer to some noise of the wheels against the tracks?
I always assumed that the clang was from a bell sounded by the driver as a
warning.
Can't be. The lines say "Ding, ding, ding went the bell" right after
the clang bit. Obviously, the ding and the clang come from different
things.
bangs head on desk and gets neither a ding nor a clang but a sort of wooden |
sound>
My mistake.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u) |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:40 pm
Post subject: Re: Desmond takes a TROLLEY to the jeweler's store |
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In alt.english.usage on Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:59:30 -0400 Tony Cooper
<tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> posted:
| Quote: | On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:53:42 +0100, Peter Duncanson
mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:50:21 -0400, meirman <meirman@invalid.com> wrote:
Well, I think in the US there were both trollies on tracks and on
rubber tires. But because of the song, trolley is most associated
with tracks. "Clang, clang, clang went the trolley..." Doesn't the
clang refer to some noise of the wheels against the tracks?
I always assumed that the clang was from a bell sounded by the driver as a
warning.
|
I hesitated to say what I did for that very reason.
But then I remembered what Tony says below.
I really don't know what goes clang.
| Quote: |
Can't be. The lines say "Ding, ding, ding went the bell" right after
the clang bit. Obviously, the ding and the clang come from different
things.
|
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
now in Baltimore 20 years |
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Mervyn Doobov
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Desmond takes a TROLLEY to the jeweler's store |
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Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:tt30n0hvgcnpmv63jm30j62me3p30i6l6n@4ax.com:
| Quote: | On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:53:42 +0100, Peter Duncanson
mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:50:21 -0400, meirman <meirman@invalid.com
wrote:
Well, I think in the US there were both trollies on tracks and on
rubber tires. But because of the song, trolley is most
associated with tracks. "Clang, clang, clang went the
trolley..." Doesn't the clang refer to some noise of the wheels
against the tracks?
I always assumed that the clang was from a bell sounded by the
driver as a warning.
Can't be. The lines say "Ding, ding, ding went the bell" right
after the clang bit. Obviously, the ding and the clang come from
different things.
|
Can be. An they were different. The trams where I grew up, in
Brisbane, had an internal bell for the conductor to signal the driver
it was OK to start moving, or for passengers to signal the driver
that they wished to alight at the next stop. It was operated by
pulling on a cord that ran the length of the tram. The driver had a
different bell, or gong, operated by a foot pedal, to warn other
vehicles that they were blocking the way.
--
Mervyn Doobov,
Jerusalem, Israel. |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Desmond takes a TROLLEY to the jeweler's store |
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In alt.english.usage on Sun, 17 Oct 2004 11:22:03 GMT Mervyn Doobov
<mdoobov@actcom.co.il> posted:
| Quote: | Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:tt30n0hvgcnpmv63jm30j62me3p30i6l6n@4ax.com:
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:53:42 +0100, Peter Duncanson
mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:50:21 -0400, meirman <meirman@invalid.com
wrote:
Well, I think in the US there were both trollies on tracks and on
rubber tires. But because of the song, trolley is most
associated with tracks. "Clang, clang, clang went the
trolley..." Doesn't the clang refer to some noise of the wheels
against the tracks?
I always assumed that the clang was from a bell sounded by the
driver as a warning.
Can't be. The lines say "Ding, ding, ding went the bell" right
after the clang bit. Obviously, the ding and the clang come from
different things.
Can be. An they were different. The trams where I grew up, in
Brisbane, had an internal bell for the conductor to signal the driver
it was OK to start moving, or for passengers to signal the driver
that they wished to alight at the next stop. It was operated by
pulling on a cord that ran the length of the tram. The driver had a
different bell, or gong, operated by a foot pedal, to warn other
vehicles that they were blocking the way.
|
That makes sense. Plus that was the case for the trolleys you knew.
(I think I misspelled this as trollies before.) Thanks.
When I think of a trolley, I think of one on tracks. Now I don't know
why. I've never seen a trolley that runs on tires, but I've really
never seen one that runs on tracks either, I think. Baltimore has a
trolley museum. It's the only museum here that I haven't been to, I
think. Wilkes Barre, Pa. has one too. I paid my admission but spent
so much time in the Railroad museum, there was no time or energy to
see the trolleys. I'll go back some day.
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
now in Baltimore 20 years |
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