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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:04 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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"Roland Hutchinson" <my.spamtrap@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:31bnmjF3824thU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | Jess Askin wrote:
"Joe Fineman" <joe_f@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:wkvfblv5e0.fsf@verizon.net...
In fact, Dmitri Shostakovich frequently used a four-note motif in his
compositions: D, S, C, H. It was based on the German transliteration of
his name (D. Schostakowitsch), and represents D, E flat, C, and B flat
Oy!
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Oops, ironically I was humming it to myself with a B natural. |
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Roland Hutchinson
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:05 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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R H Draney wrote:
| Quote: | Mike Lyle filted:
Roland Hutchinson wrote:
Jess Askin wrote:
"Joe Fineman" <joe_f@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:wkvfblv5e0.fsf@verizon.net...
In fact, Dmitri Shostakovich frequently used a four-note motif in
his
compositions: D, S, C, H. It was based on the German
transliteration
of his name (D. Schostakowitsch), and represents D, E flat, C, and
B
flat
Oy!
So glad somebody expert moved first: I was beginning to doubt myself.
I just figured it was some Russian quirk...they traditionally haven't
gotten on well with the Germans, so it was only natural to assume that B
and H could reverse roles in the notation....
|
Not Russian, but German.
| Quote: | And isn't the E-flat "Es" rather than simply "S"?...or is solfege worming
its way in here?...r
|
Not solfege strictly speaking (which means do re mi..., the Italian/French
note names or English scale-degree names) but more German note names. Es
is E-flat (and S, pronounced the same as Es, is a long-standing pun used in
spelling out names musically), Fes is F-flat, Ges is G flat, and so on, but
B is irregular. In German, it means B flat, and H is used for B natural.
(Thus Bach's "Messe h-moll" = "Mass in B minor", for example, and of course
the musical name BACH come out in English as B flat, A, C, B natural as
Danny Kaye fans of a certain age, among others, will certainly know.)
Originally, starting with early medieval Latin musical theory back in the
days when theory only addressed plainchant and the only chromatic
inflection used in chant was the choice between B and B-flat, they were
represented by round and square forms of the letter B (b routundum, b
quadratum). The shapes can still be seen, in stylized form, in the flat
and natural symbols of present-day musical notation. Lowercase h in the
old German gothic type looks quite a bit like the square b (and even more
like the natural sign!), so it became identified with it in the course of
time.
Oh, and German sharps get -is: Cis, Dis, etc.
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. |
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Richard Sabey
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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athel@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden) wrote in message news:<9eb3add6.0412010826.47a5a965@posting.google.com>...
| Quote: | [T]here is nothing particularly difficult about "shch".
There is a place in Gloucestershire called Ashchurch, which seems easy
enough to pronounce (for an English speaker; an Italian might have a
different view). I can't think of any word that has shch in it, [...]
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Pushchair. |
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:22 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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Wayne Brown wrote:
| Quote: | ending in 'ff'. The final 'v' in a Russian surname is never voiced; its
actual pronunciation is 'f.'
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This devoicing of final consonants in all or most Slavonic languages
(also in German) was precisely why I queried the pronunciation of Kiev
as Kyiv in another thread.
--
Rob Bannister |
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:22 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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Joe Fineman wrote:
| Quote: | "Wayne Brown" <Wayne.Brown@aol.com> writes:
The different appearances of Russian surnames in Latin letters are a
result of the various transliteration systems, none of which has
ever achieved general international recognition.
On top of that, Russian scholars have often published in western
(Latin-alphabet) languages and (naturally) made up spellings of their
own names according to their own tastes. It would be perverse to cite
them any other way.
The problem, IMO, is insoluble. Even if the Russian government
decreed an official system (as the Chinese government has for
Chinese), it would be difficult or impossible for us to conform with
respect to well-established spellings of well-known Russian names.
Sankt-Pitersburg? Trotskij? Pyotr the Great?
|
I don't think we need worry about that. Certainly, keep historical names
the way they have always been spelt, but new names should have an
orthography which gives an English speaker a chance of coming close to
the actual pronunciation. I see no problem with Sankt-Petersburg anyway,
since "Peter" is close enough, and I have seen Pyotr in many books.
"Trotskij" looks like a German spelling - I don't see that i myakisznak
or whatever it's called needs to be represented as it can't be heard.
--
Rob Bannister |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:22 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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Robert Bannister wrote:
| Quote: | Joe Fineman wrote:
"Wayne Brown" writes:
The different appearances of Russian surnames in Latin letters are a
result of the various transliteration systems, none of which has
ever achieved general international recognition.
On top of that, Russian scholars have often published in western
(Latin-alphabet) languages and (naturally) made up spellings of their
own names according to their own tastes. It would be perverse to
cite them any other way.
The problem, IMO, is insoluble. Even if the Russian government
decreed an official system (as the Chinese government has for
Chinese), it would be difficult or impossible for us to conform with
respect to well-established spellings of well-known Russian names.
Sankt-Pitersburg? Trotskij? Pyotr the Great?
I don't think we need worry about that. Certainly, keep historical
names the way they have always been spelt, but new names should have
an orthography which gives an English speaker a chance of coming
close to the actual pronunciation. I see no problem with
Sankt-Petersburg anyway, since "Peter" is close enough, and I have
seen Pyotr in many books. "Trotskij" looks like a German spelling - I
don't see that i myakisznak or whatever it's called needs to be
represented as it can't be heard.
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But it's "Sankt Peterburg" (no "s" in Peterburg).
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Sericinus hunter
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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Skitt wrote:
| Quote: | Robert Bannister wrote:
....
The problem, IMO, is insoluble. Even if the Russian government
decreed an official system (as the Chinese government has for
Chinese), it would be difficult or impossible for us to conform with
respect to well-established spellings of well-known Russian names.
Sankt-Pitersburg? Trotskij? Pyotr the Great?
I don't think we need worry about that. Certainly, keep historical
names the way they have always been spelt, but new names should have
an orthography which gives an English speaker a chance of coming
close to the actual pronunciation.
|
Then German or French speakers would need their own version
of spelling, which will be highly inconvenient. |
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Adamello
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:25 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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"Robert Bannister" wrote:
| Quote: | Wayne Brown wrote:
ending in 'ff'. The final 'v' in a Russian surname is never voiced; its
actual pronunciation is 'f.'
This devoicing of final consonants in all or most Slavonic languages (also
in German) was precisely why I queried the pronunciation of Kiev as Kyiv
in another thread.
|
I'm Polish and know a little bit about Ukrainian, so I thought I'd help to
clarify this issue.
Firstly, Ukrainian is one of those few (or maybe the only one) Slavonic
languages that keep final consonants voiced. Secondly, "v" in Ukrainian is
pronounced somewhat like "w/wh" in English, e.g. in "what", so it could not
be devoiced to "f".
And, continuing on the Kyiv note, this spelling in English reflects the
Ukrainian (transliterated) spelling, as opposed to the Russian spelling. Of
course, English does not need to follow the spelling of local languages,
(nor does Polish with e.g. Londyn or Waszyngton), but when it does, it seems
more reasonable to take into account the original language.
Best regards,
Adam |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:37 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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Sericinus hunter wrote:
I did not!
| Quote: | Robert Bannister wrote:
...
The problem, IMO, is insoluble. Even if the Russian government
decreed an official system (as the Chinese government has for
Chinese), it would be difficult or impossible for us to conform
with respect to well-established spellings of well-known Russian
names. Sankt-Pitersburg? Trotskij? Pyotr the Great?
I don't think we need worry about that. Certainly, keep historical
names the way they have always been spelt, but new names should have
an orthography which gives an English speaker a chance of coming
close to the actual pronunciation.
Then German or French speakers would need their own version
of spelling, which will be highly inconvenient.
|
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Sericinus hunter
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:41 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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Skitt wrote:
| Quote: | Sericinus hunter wrote:
Skitt wrote:
I did not!
|
Sorry, I must have been more accurate in quoting.
| Quote: | Robert Bannister wrote:
...
The problem, IMO, is insoluble. Even if the Russian government
decreed an official system (as the Chinese government has for
Chinese), it would be difficult or impossible for us to conform
with respect to well-established spellings of well-known Russian
names. Sankt-Pitersburg? Trotskij? Pyotr the Great?
I don't think we need worry about that. Certainly, keep historical
names the way they have always been spelt, but new names should have
an orthography which gives an English speaker a chance of coming
close to the actual pronunciation.
Then German or French speakers would need their own version
of spelling, which will be highly inconvenient.
|
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Wayne Brown
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:06 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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Robert Bannister wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | I don't think we need worry about that. Certainly, keep historical names
the way they have always been spelt, but new names should have an
orthography which gives an English speaker a chance of coming close to the
actual pronunciation. I see no problem with Sankt-Petersburg anyway, since
"Peter" is close enough, and I have seen Pyotr in many books. "Trotskij"
looks like a German spelling - I don't see that i myakisznak or whatever
it's called needs to be represented as it can't be heard.
|
"Coming close" can be quite subjective, I believe. Some foreign sounds are
so far beyond the scope of English that there's no practical purpose, in my
opinion, in making an attempt to approximate them. Just an English hint at
the original might be sufficient. 'Trotskij' is indeed the German spelling.
Some transliteration standards in use in the United States spell his name
'Trotskiy.' Russians can hear that final sound quite clearly, but a native
speaker of English usually cannot make it out and would need training to
pronounce it correctly. Gogol wrote a short story with a one-word title of
three Cyrillic letters. The title is transliterated various ways into
English, including "Vy" and "Vyy." The Cyrillic spelling is the letter v
followed by a regular Cyrillic i and a short i, which the Russians call 'i
kratkoye.' If one asks a Russian to pronounce the title first with the final
letter and then without it, one usually can hear the difference after a
while. But I don't believe good English requires mastery of the sound,
although it's essential for him who would strive for a good pronunciation in
Russian.
Regards, ----- WB. |
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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:20 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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"Robert Bannister" <robban@it.net.au> wrote in message
news:32s1kdF3qnrg6U4@individual.net...
| Quote: | Sericinus hunter wrote:
Skitt wrote:
Robert Bannister wrote:
...
The problem, IMO, is insoluble. Even if the Russian government
decreed an official system (as the Chinese government has for
Chinese), it would be difficult or impossible for us to conform with
respect to well-established spellings of well-known Russian names.
Sankt-Pitersburg? Trotskij? Pyotr the Great?
I don't think we need worry about that. Certainly, keep historical
names the way they have always been spelt, but new names should have
an orthography which gives an English speaker a chance of coming
close to the actual pronunciation.
Then German or French speakers would need their own version
of spelling, which will be highly inconvenient.
But they do already. I don't suppose they find it as inconvenient as
they would if they used 'our' spellings or even the country's spellings.
--
Rob Bannister
|
The transliteration "Putin" used in English represents one for one all the
letters which are in the original. The French write "Poutine" so that the
"u," pronounced [u] ("oo" as in "food") is represented by a digraph, "ou,"
and the final syllable is pronounced [tin], "teen."
A French friend of mine finds the English transliteration amusing, since if
she were to pronounce "Putin" in the French manner, it would come out as
[pytE~], with the French "u" for the first vowel and the vowel in "vin" for
the second. This is the pronunciation for "putain," which is the French
equivalent for "whore" or "hooker."
I'd think that French Canadians would find "Poutine" somewhat amusing:
"poutine," a name which is derived from the English word "pudding," is a
French-Canadian dish consisting of French fries and cheese covered with
gravy.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:21 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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Adamello wrote:
| Quote: | "Robert Bannister" wrote:
Wayne Brown wrote:
ending in 'ff'. The final 'v' in a Russian surname is never voiced; its
actual pronunciation is 'f.'
This devoicing of final consonants in all or most Slavonic languages (also
in German) was precisely why I queried the pronunciation of Kiev as Kyiv
in another thread.
I'm Polish and know a little bit about Ukrainian, so I thought I'd help to
clarify this issue.
Firstly, Ukrainian is one of those few (or maybe the only one) Slavonic
languages that keep final consonants voiced. Secondly, "v" in Ukrainian is
pronounced somewhat like "w/wh" in English, e.g. in "what", so it could not
be devoiced to "f".
And, continuing on the Kyiv note, this spelling in English reflects the
Ukrainian (transliterated) spelling, as opposed to the Russian spelling. Of
course, English does not need to follow the spelling of local languages,
(nor does Polish with e.g. Londyn or Waszyngton), but when it does, it seems
more reasonable to take into account the original language.
|
Many thanks for that explanation, which explains everything very clearly.
My most recent Slavonic language is Macedonian, and it seems they are
equally divided on devoicing or not. At first, I thought they might be
using spelling pronunciations, but it seems just as possible that, at a
time when Macedonian was not a written language, they were influenced by
their forced learning of Russian under Tito.
--
Rob Bannister |
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:21 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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Wayne Brown wrote:
| Quote: | Robert Bannister wrote:
[...]
I don't think we need worry about that. Certainly, keep historical names
the way they have always been spelt, but new names should have an
orthography which gives an English speaker a chance of coming close to the
actual pronunciation. I see no problem with Sankt-Petersburg anyway, since
"Peter" is close enough, and I have seen Pyotr in many books. "Trotskij"
looks like a German spelling - I don't see that i myakisznak or whatever
it's called needs to be represented as it can't be heard.
"Coming close" can be quite subjective, I believe. Some foreign sounds are
so far beyond the scope of English that there's no practical purpose, in my
opinion, in making an attempt to approximate them. Just an English hint at
the original might be sufficient. 'Trotskij' is indeed the German spelling.
Some transliteration standards in use in the United States spell his name
'Trotskiy.' Russians can hear that final sound quite clearly, but a native
speaker of English usually cannot make it out and would need training to
pronounce it correctly. Gogol wrote a short story with a one-word title of
three Cyrillic letters. The title is transliterated various ways into
English, including "Vy" and "Vyy." The Cyrillic spelling is the letter v
followed by a regular Cyrillic i and a short i, which the Russians call 'i
kratkoye.' If one asks a Russian to pronounce the title first with the final
letter and then without it, one usually can hear the difference after a
while. But I don't believe good English requires mastery of the sound,
although it's essential for him who would strive for a good pronunciation in
Russian.
|
Sorry about the i kratkoye blue - it's a long, long time since I spoke
an Russian, but I do remember the hours and hours my Russian teacher had
me practising some sounds, especially the vowels.
Subjective yes, but we can still make an attempt without going
overboard. Thus, I don't think we need bother in English about the
difference between è èé û (don't know whether those will appear on your
screen: the 'ee' sound, the 'eey' sound and the one I can't represent in
English - the one in 'we' ìû or m(w)i). Neither should we try to force
those English speakers who can't say õ (X) to do so, although we could
still represent it for those who can (most British speakers can say
'loch', but 'lock' will do). So in the example of Khrushchev, the
spelling Khrushschoff seems as good as any to me. Stress is another
issue and one that can only be addressed by the media - in the old days
of the BBC, this was done, but now we are used to the names of Russian
tennis players being mis-stressed repeatedly.
--
Rob Bannister |
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Robert Bannister
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:21 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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Skitt wrote:
| Quote: | But it's "Sankt Peterburg" (no "s" in Peterburg).
|
Whoops! The last time I was there, it was still Leningrad, but I still
should have spelt it right.
--
Rob Bannister |
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