| Author |
Message |
Wayne Brown
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:03 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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Joe Fineman wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | With regard to familiar names like "Khrushchev", however, IMO the
correct Russian pronunciation is of as little interest to sensible
speakers of English as is the French pronunciation of "Napoleon".
|
[...]
That's probably true. For most, the main consideration, conscious or
unconscious, seems to be that a foreign name should be pronounced with
sounds that any native speaker of English can readily imitate. That seems
logical. Why strive to pronounce a name with sounds like 'kh,' 'shch' and
others that don't exist in the English language and sometimes would even
require special training to master?
US domestic radio and TV, for example, have a long tradition of what some
might call mangling foreign names. That approach caused a problem some years
ago when the US government went into international broadcasting by setting
up the Voice of America (VOA) in an attempt to win the hearts and minds of
men. Initially a broadcaster in the English-language Service out of
Washington just bashed a name into English as he would have done back at
WZYP, his home station in Muncie, Indiana. But soon word started coming in
from US embassies in various countries that foreign listeners to the
English-language Service of the VOA were having such fun with gross
mispronunciations that they were distracted from the propaganda message of a
news report.
That's when the VOA set up a special pronunciation unit to find out the
correct pronunciation of all foreign names in the news and to suggest a
pronunciation that would fit English criteria and at the same time would not
start listeners giggling. The unit began regularly to distribute whole lists
of such names in phonetic transliteration not only to the English-language
Service but to all the VOA foreign language services as well. The BBC, the
grand old lady of international broadcasting in foreign languages, had had
such a unit for a long time and was certainly a model for many other
stations broadcasting to foreign audiences.
Admittedly, this seems to be fairly unusual subject, but I believe the
question of how foreign names are handled in English, in various settings,
might be of some interest to other participants.
Regards, ------ WB. |
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Athel Cornish-Bowden
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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"Wayne Brown" <Wayne.Brown@aol.com> wrote in message news:<coj5rk$21t$01$1@news.t-online.com>...
| Quote: | Joe Fineman wrote:
[...]
With regard to familiar names like "Khrushchev", however, IMO the
correct Russian pronunciation is of as little interest to sensible
speakers of English as is the French pronunciation of "Napoleon".
[...]
That's probably true. For most, the main consideration, conscious or
unconscious, seems to be that a foreign name should be pronounced with
sounds that any native speaker of English can readily imitate. That seems
logical. Why strive to pronounce a name with sounds like 'kh,' 'shch' and
others that don't exist in the English language and sometimes would even
require special training to master?
'Kh', or especially 'khr', is probably difficult for most monoglot |
anglophones, but there is nothing particularly difficult about "shch".
There is a place in Gloucestershire called Ashchurch, which seems easy
enough to pronounce (for an English speaker; an Italian might have a
different view). I can't think of any word that has shch in it, but it
certainly occurs at the boundaries between words that can occur
together in everyday sentences, like "My bank won't cash cheques for
me unless I can prove I have an account with them".
athel
--
Athel Cornish-Bowden
athel@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr
http://bip.cnrs-mrs.fr/bip10/homepage.htm |
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Joe Fineman
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:02 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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"Wayne Brown" <Wayne.Brown@aol.com> writes:
| Quote: | The different appearances of Russian surnames in Latin letters are a
result of the various transliteration systems, none of which has
ever achieved general international recognition.
|
On top of that, Russian scholars have often published in western
(Latin-alphabet) languages and (naturally) made up spellings of their
own names according to their own tastes. It would be perverse to cite
them any other way.
The problem, IMO, is insoluble. Even if the Russian government
decreed an official system (as the Chinese government has for
Chinese), it would be difficult or impossible for us to conform with
respect to well-established spellings of well-known Russian names.
Sankt-Pitersburg? Trotskij? Pyotr the Great?
--
--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net
||: A potato without pepper is like a kiss without a moustache.  | |
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Wayne Brown
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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|
Joe Fineman wrote:
| Quote: | On top of that, Russian scholars have often published in western
(Latin-alphabet) languages and (naturally) made up spellings of their
own names according to their own tastes. It would be perverse to cite
them any other way.
|
And they have been known to change a spelling after a while if it no longer
suits them. Some spelling or other in Latin letters, they feel, is not
binding. Only their names as spelled on their Russian birth certificates in
Cyrillic letters have lasting validity, provided no national orthographical
reform takes place in Russia.
| Quote: | The problem, IMO, is insoluble. Even if the Russian government
decreed an official system (as the Chinese government has for
Chinese), it would be difficult or impossible for us to conform with
respect to well-established spellings of well-known Russian names.
Sankt-Pitersburg? Trotskij? Pyotr the Great?
|
Conformity may be difficult to predict, I believe. When the Chinese
government first announced the official introduction of Pinyin, some thought
well-established spellings in foreign countries would never change to
conform. Now, many years later, many a English-language publication seems to
use Mao Zedong and other Pinyin spellings for well-known people and other
Chinese words that were used abroad before Pinyin.
Chinese standardized spelling was probably generally welcomed, but the
English speaker was still faced with a number of pronunciation problems. For
example, how is Xun in Lu Xun (the father of modern Chinese literature) best
pronounced? The 'x' and 'u' sounds do not exist in the English language so
the name ends up getting pronounced according to English-language criteria.
I don't see any other solution. I won't even get into the tones of Chinese
words.
The Chinese solution of making all foreign names pronounceable for any
Chinese seems wise. Syllables are assigned a Chinese equivalent that is
rendered by a Chinese character. Foreigners would probably not recognize
their own names read by a Chinese from a Chinese newspaper, but the system
works well for Chinese. The Chinese nowadays seem to use their character
transliteration system rather than translating some foreign word into
Chinese as was more usual in former times. San Francisco, for example, ends
up with two names, a relatively new transliterated form and the old flowery
name that was assigned to it a long time ago. In China, if I say I am from
San Francisco, my interlocutor's face usually remains blank, unless he's
well versed in foreign geography. But I always wait for that smile of
recognition to flash across every Chinese face when I say I'm from Old Gold
Mountain.
Regards, ----- WB. |
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R H Draney
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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Wayne Brown filted:
| Quote: |
Chinese standardized spelling was probably generally welcomed, but the
English speaker was still faced with a number of pronunciation problems. For
example, how is Xun in Lu Xun (the father of modern Chinese literature) best
pronounced? The 'x' and 'u' sounds do not exist in the English language so
the name ends up getting pronounced according to English-language criteria.
I don't see any other solution. I won't even get into the tones of Chinese
words.
|
One multilingual singer in Taiwan has had some fun with this...her name is
transliterated "Ho Hsin Sui", and she goes by "Ciacia Ho" or "Patricia Ho" in
English articles I've found...her second album bears a title consisting of the
three English words "Her Sheen Sway", a fair approximation to the way her
Chinese name actually sounds....
(Music video for one of her songs, with about 60% of the lyrics in English, and
all of them shown on-screen, can be found at
http://myweb.hinet.net/home4/ciacia/sarcastic.wmv)....r |
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Jess Askin
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:02 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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"Joe Fineman" <joe_f@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:wkvfblv5e0.fsf@verizon.net...
| Quote: | "Wayne Brown" <Wayne.Brown@aol.com> writes:
The different appearances of Russian surnames in Latin letters are a
result of the various transliteration systems, none of which has
ever achieved general international recognition.
On top of that, Russian scholars have often published in western
(Latin-alphabet) languages and (naturally) made up spellings of their
own names according to their own tastes. It would be perverse to cite
them any other way.
|
In fact, Dmitri Shostakovich frequently used a four-note motif in his
compositions: D, S, C, H. It was based on the German transliteration of his
name (D. Schostakowitsch), and represents D, E flat, C, and B flat in
English-language notation.
http://www.dschjournal.com/dschmean.htm |
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Joe Fineman
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:05 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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athel@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden) writes:
| Quote: | 'Kh', or especially 'khr', is probably difficult for most monoglot
anglophones, but there is nothing particularly difficult about
"shch". There is a place in Gloucestershire called Ashchurch, which
seems easy enough to pronounce (for an English speaker; an Italian
might have a different view).
|
It is usual for Anglophones to say "shch as in fish chowder". But
that is misleading in that for such compounds the sh and ch are not in
the same syllable. "Khrushchev" is properly Khru-SHCHOFF.
--
--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net
||: There is nothing wrong with devil theories in politics. |
||: Just look to the devil in the mirror. | |
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Athel Cornish-Bowden
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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|
"Jess Askin" <dontbother@nospam.net> wrote in message news:<319aclF38s0r6U1@individual.net>...
| Quote: | "Joe Fineman" <joe_f@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:wkvfblv5e0.fsf@verizon.net...
"Wayne Brown" <Wayne.Brown@aol.com> writes:
The different appearances of Russian surnames in Latin letters are a
result of the various transliteration systems, none of which has
ever achieved general international recognition.
On top of that, Russian scholars have often published in western
(Latin-alphabet) languages and (naturally) made up spellings of their
own names according to their own tastes. It would be perverse to cite
them any other way.
In fact, Dmitri Shostakovich frequently used a four-note motif in his
compositions: D, S, C, H. It was based on the German transliteration of his
name (D. Schostakowitsch), and represents D, E flat, C, and B flat in
English-language notation.
http://www.dschjournal.com/dschmean.htm
|
Which syllable is stressed in the name Shostakovich? I have a friend
who insists on stressing the a, which sounds very odd to me, but I
don't know if the usual BrE habit of stressing the second o is any
more correct.
athel
--
Athel Cornish-Bowden
athel@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr
http://bip.cnrs-mrs.fr/bip10/homepage.htm |
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Jess Askin
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
|
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"Athel Cornish-Bowden" <athel@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote in message
news:9eb3add6.0412030140.4f2259@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | "Jess Askin" <dontbother@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:<319aclF38s0r6U1@individual.net>...
"Joe Fineman" <joe_f@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:wkvfblv5e0.fsf@verizon.net...
"Wayne Brown" <Wayne.Brown@aol.com> writes:
The different appearances of Russian surnames in Latin letters are a
result of the various transliteration systems, none of which has
ever achieved general international recognition.
On top of that, Russian scholars have often published in western
(Latin-alphabet) languages and (naturally) made up spellings of their
own names according to their own tastes. It would be perverse to cite
them any other way.
In fact, Dmitri Shostakovich frequently used a four-note motif in his
compositions: D, S, C, H. It was based on the German transliteration of
his
name (D. Schostakowitsch), and represents D, E flat, C, and B flat in
English-language notation.
http://www.dschjournal.com/dschmean.htm
Which syllable is stressed in the name Shostakovich? I have a friend
who insists on stressing the a, which sounds very odd to me, but I
don't know if the usual BrE habit of stressing the second o is any
more correct.
|
The usual pronunciation in the US is Sho-sta-'ko-vich, but I'm pretty sure
we're butchering most Russian names. I've never known whether it's
'Bul-ga-kov or Bul -'ga-kov, for example. |
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Jess Askin
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
|
|
"Joe Fineman" <joe_f@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:wkvfbkm1la.fsf@verizon.net...
| Quote: | athel@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden) writes:
'Kh', or especially 'khr', is probably difficult for most monoglot
anglophones, but there is nothing particularly difficult about
"shch". There is a place in Gloucestershire called Ashchurch, which
seems easy enough to pronounce (for an English speaker; an Italian
might have a different view).
It is usual for Anglophones to say "shch as in fish chowder". But
that is misleading in that for such compounds the sh and ch are not in
the same syllable. "Khrushchev" is properly Khru-SHCHOFF.
|
And back in the day, I'm pretty sure I often heard "Krushev" without any
"ch." |
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Roland Hutchinson
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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|
Jess Askin wrote:
| Quote: | "Joe Fineman" <joe_f@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:wkvfblv5e0.fsf@verizon.net...
In fact, Dmitri Shostakovich frequently used a four-note motif in his
compositions: D, S, C, H. It was based on the German transliteration of
his name (D. Schostakowitsch), and represents D, E flat, C, and B flat
|
Oy!
| Quote: | in English-language notation.
|
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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Roland Hutchinson wrote:
| Quote: | Jess Askin wrote:
"Joe Fineman" <joe_f@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:wkvfblv5e0.fsf@verizon.net...
In fact, Dmitri Shostakovich frequently used a four-note motif in
his
compositions: D, S, C, H. It was based on the German
transliteration
of his name (D. Schostakowitsch), and represents D, E flat, C, and
B
flat
Oy!
|
So glad somebody expert moved first: I was beginning to doubt myself.
| Quote: |
in English-language notation.
|
Mike. |
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R H Draney
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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Mike Lyle filted:
| Quote: |
Roland Hutchinson wrote:
Jess Askin wrote:
"Joe Fineman" <joe_f@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:wkvfblv5e0.fsf@verizon.net...
In fact, Dmitri Shostakovich frequently used a four-note motif in
his
compositions: D, S, C, H. It was based on the German
transliteration
of his name (D. Schostakowitsch), and represents D, E flat, C, and
B
flat
Oy!
So glad somebody expert moved first: I was beginning to doubt myself.
|
I just figured it was some Russian quirk...they traditionally haven't gotten on
well with the Germans, so it was only natural to assume that B and H could
reverse roles in the notation....
And isn't the E-flat "Es" rather than simply "S"?...or is solfege worming its
way in here?...r |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:02 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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Jess Askin wrote:
....
| Quote: | The usual pronunciation in the US is Sho-sta-'ko-vich, but I'm pretty
sure
we're butchering most Russian names. I've never known whether it's
'Bul-ga-kov or Bul -'ga-kov, for example.
|
My Russian grad-school roommate got me to read _The Master and
Margarita_, to my great pleasure. As I recall, he told me the
pronunciation was Bul-'ga-kov.
--
Jerry Friedman |
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Jess Askin
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:04 am
Post subject: Re: Khrushchev and Brezhnev - pronunciation |
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|
<jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1102115228.917625.305130@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Jess Askin wrote:
...
The usual pronunciation in the US is Sho-sta-'ko-vich, but I'm pretty
sure
we're butchering most Russian names. I've never known whether it's
'Bul-ga-kov or Bul -'ga-kov, for example.
My Russian grad-school roommate got me to read _The Master and
Margarita_, to my great pleasure. As I recall, he told me the
pronunciation was Bul-'ga-kov.
|
Oh good -- it's been sitting on my shelf forever. Now I can finally read it. |
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